Best PC class?

[Suspicious Vlish]

Before talking about my own experiences with each of the 5 PC classes, I want to ask Geneforgers here their opinion of the 'best' PC class. While 'what is best' can be subjective, I think we should take into account:

 

1. Survivability

 

2. Rate of damage output.

 

3. Adaptability (how well a PC can react to varying battles).

 

4. Thrill of playing.

 

----------------

 

Now, after my own experiences with each of the 5 classes, I've come to some general conclusions.

 

1. The servile battle mage is by far the 'best'. His hitpoints rival that of a warrior, and the ability to invest in magic further augments his fantastic battle abilities.

 

2. The 'agent-like' infiltrator has actually decreased in usefulness. This is due to the fact that its no longer as easy to avoid being hit. In previous Geneforges, an agent could quite easily avoid her foes, not take a point of damage, and eliminate everything.

 

However, the new system of 'Anyone can attack, as long as they have AP's left' means that its very hard to avoid the foe. Added to which, the Daze spells seem to be nerfed.

 

The Infiltrator's low HP, the fact that powerful spells are not present for at least the 1st third of the game, and the difficulty to avoid opponents, makes the Infiltrator have very low survivability.

 

3. The Shocktrooper seems like a nerfed version of the Battle Mage. Fewer HP's, and no magic to compliment your attacks? Lame. The 'bonus' of being able to Shape well is offset by the fact that any class can quite easily Shape.

 

4. The Lifecrafter suffers from the same flaws as the Infilitrator. 'Dead weight, 1 endurance Lifecrafters' are no longer practical, as its easy for enemies to hit you, and they tend to have area of effect attacks.

 

5. Soldiers, like Shock Troopers, are just nerfed Battle Mages.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
1. The servile battle mage is by far the 'best'. His hitpoints rival that of a warrior, and the ability to invest in magic further augments his fantastic battle abilities.

I've been really underwhelmed by serviles every time I tried playing one. My ability to kill things before they killed me always felt inadequate. In an area with lots of powerful enemies like Fort Raevinn or Khima-Uss, I get surrounded and that 700 HP goes down to nothing in a round or two.

I've had much better results with the Lifecrafter or even the Shock Trooper. Having 1 endurance wasn't really a problem for me; a lifecrafter can easily spare the essence for Essence Armor and Augmentation, and once you've done that you have about 200 HP and probably decent enough armour to survive a couple of hits from anything that's going to hit you. (And not that much should hit you in the first place; things die pretty fast when you've got half a dozen tier-4 creations or four tier-5 creations pounding on them.)

[Sudanna]

Well, did you still Shape? A servile modeled after the class that everyone wants. . . Good magic, o.k. shaping, weak battle, works excellently.

[Alorael at Large]

The way I play I've always found that a lifecrafter that uses mostly magic with a dash of shaping does even better. The small improvement in shaping is worth the small losses elsewhere.

 

—Alorael, who still has very little trouble with a dead weight shaper. Aside from the occasional battle in which you are forced into the middle, you can easily trail far behind your creations so they do all the fighting for you. If that's scary, keep a few back as bodyguards.

[Xaiya]

Shaper steps back from the battle. He forgot to bring body guards.

 

Enemy destracts him by shaping a nude banana. He gets an idea and shapes a "lady".

 

While he does that, shaper kills him.

 

So yes, it would be good to have body guards.

[Synergy]

I don't know what makes you declare that Daze has been nerfed. I find Daze one of the most useful spells in the game. Magic is so effective in G4, that I have found the Infiltrator to be downright ferocious if you invest your skill points efficiently. Look here for a in-depth look at how potent an Infiltrator can be. Getting hit is not a big problem when you make crippling preemptive strikes.

 

-S-

[Randomizer]

Look at some of the challenges that have been done and you will see that the only class that has problems is the warrior. This is probably because no one has warped it like Thuryl did with lifecrafter and shocktrooper or Synergy has done with the infiltrator.

[Micawber]

I really think the lifecrafter is the most powerful class. The key I think is to have a high number of creations (obviously with a variety of damage types). My army of creations was able to finish most fights within 2 rounds and the fragility of the lifecrafter simply never became a problem (most enemies will attack the foe who last attacked them; the key to keeping your lifecrafter alive is never attack anything personally). The lifecrafter doesn't need many spells other than curing, healing and mass energize.

 

Edit: to clarify, my central view is that in Geneforge engine, action points are vastly more powerful than anything else. The bigger your party the more powerful you will be. A lifecrafter with a host of wingbolts, cryodrayks and ur-glaahks is more powerful than a singleton infiltrator or servile, however good their magical skills.

[Archaeolagent]

The fact is that NONE of the classes have problems; they are all almost identical, really, if you look at things on a strategic and numerical level; the Warrior and Shock Trooper simply don't have ANYTHING to recommend them above the other three, whereas the other three each have their own strengths.

 

I think there can be little debate that the Lifecrafter is the most powerful, while the Infiltrator and Servile are the most flexible. There is honestly almost zero difference between those last two classes, it's just a little extra HP vs a little extra essence.

[Randomizer]

While the game AI usually attacks the last thing that attacks monsters before their turn. If there are more monsters than attackers, it will go after a neutral (non-attacking) lifecrafter that is hiding behind a corner. I watched this happen to me repeatedly when I had only 2 creations versus 4 monsters.

 

Still an army of creations gets in more attacks per round then a single character and this can make a significant difference.

[The Duke]

I like the warrior best if only because it looks cooler than anything else.

[Chilung]

I do love the infiltrator/agent character.

 

Warriors and Shocktroopers have their own advantages like any other class.

 

Servile and Infiltrators are more loners than the others, but trade off by been stronger in the solo skills. Life crafters are probably most difficult as soloists (due to the high cost of parry, lack of HP, ).

 

Shocktroopers and Warriors probably get the most decent variety of attacks without having to use spells, they can probably devote most of the points in spells towards blessing and just use creations to sub for battle spells, whilst been able to throw in a couple of blows themselves. Shocktroopers more on the creatures as a frontline, whilst warirors more with the creatures as backups, but they both still have strong areas, its just their weak area, is one that people like using a lot.

[Suspicious Vlish]

I've actually played the Battle Servile to the end of the game, and ironically, I found that it's more difficult than a Shocktrooper.

 

As a previous poster mentioned, an extra 100hp doesn't seem to matter when you're being attacked by several wingbolts.

 

And about Daze. Yes, it has been nerfed. Enemies become more resistant as you progress through the game, despite the fact that I boost Mental Magic.

[Randomizer]

Daze is only meant to really work for the first 2 chapters. There are some monsters in the later chapters that will be affected by it.

 

In chapter 3 you can get strong daze and in chapter 5 there is mass madness that are improved versions.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Random:

Quote:

Daze is only meant to really work for the first 2 chapters.

It works fine for the 1st chapter, yet its reliability decreases significantly during the 2nd. In the 2nd chapter, I know that I will not be able to daze all of my opponents if I am swarmed.

 

Quote:

In chapter 3 you can get strong daze and in chapter 5 there is mass madness that are improved versions.

Yes, in the third chapter. The problem is that you're getting beaten around in the second.

 

The only sure-proof way to handle swarms is with creations, and perhaps mass madness (which comes along too late).

[Synergy]

Or become a magically ferocious Infiltrator whose Daze actually keeps working.

 

>

 

-S-

[Suspicious Vlish]

Infilitrator sucks. Her daze is no better than the serviles...

[Sir Spiff]

While I find Infiltrators to be more fun, I love the Serviles' ability to go straight through traps, rather than around them, and survive.

[Archaeolagent]

I imagine pumping lots and lots into mental magic will make Daze almost always work on everything in the game. This was the case in G3, certainly.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
I've actually played the Battle Servile to the end of the game, and ironically, I found that it's more difficult than a Shocktrooper.

Shaping is more powerful than magic or combat.

[Mr. Potato Thumbs]

Sorry, Synergy, but I agree with the Vlish. Battle Magic is highly effective with an Infiltrator, but Mental Magic makes me curse maniacally at the screen when the "...resists the charm/daze/strong daze/terror..." message is displayed. And this after subsequent castings of the same spell. With 20 Spellcraft and 9 Mental. At the start of Chapter 4. Too many upper tier creations are resistant to mental effects.

 

The only consistently effective spells are Wrack and Energy Shackles. Vegas has better odds than my PC using some of the more aggressive Mental spells.

[Suspicious Vlish]

And remember, if even ONE enemy manages to resist your spell, your infilitrator is dead the next turn (assume we are playing on Torment).

 

I won't argue with the contention that mental magic has its place, and is great for support. But to RELY on mental magic in order to survive is just a ridiculous tactic.

[Retlaw May]

Until you get mass madness.

[Synergy]

When my Infiltrator goes into combat in the later game, Mental Magic is not her primary strategy. It is supplemental and for her amusement. She often starts one of her two earlier hasted attacks with Mass Madness, Charm, or Strong Daze, and her second move involves redlining or killing something else. She is not automatically dead if something is able to attack her.

 

She does feel vulnerable in the last Chapter though, and this is a good time to put Create Drakon to good use. The Infiltrator at times requires more singleton-like strategies of luring off one or two enemies at a time to kill instead of running into the thick of a swarm. But she can kill things very quickly. And this is also what is fun about running an Infiltrator. precisely that she requires more careful strategy and timing. It is very satisfying when it is made to work according to her skills.

 

Mass Madness is certainly very fun and effective for larger mixed social gatherings. I've started Chapter Five with my Infiltrator saga and will post on how it's going. Her mental magic is still plenty effective enough to be useful. There are just certain creations on which mental magic is not very effective, and upon which it never has been much. Kyshakks and Wingbolts, for instance, are difficult to affect significantly. Battle Creations Charm or whatever else I tell them to do nearly every time. I haven't been in any fights wth Fire Creations yet this chapter, but we shall see soon enough how readily they Charm and Daze.

 

Part of the excitement is the smaller window for making mistakes with an Infiltrator. But she won't have many turns to make them, because she kills so effectively.

 

-S-

[Sir Spiff]

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
And remember, if even ONE enemy manages to resist your spell, your infilitrator is dead the next turn (assume we are playing on Torment).

That's what Augmentation, etc. are for, with some points in Endurance and Parry.

I'm sending an Infiltrator through Torment, and Daze is my best friend. There's been a lot of Daze>Burning Spray>Firebolt>Repeat. Of course, I'll be forced to rely on more direct forms of battle once enemies become more resistant.

[Acidic Helixbolt]

Could we also add point 5:

Hassle of playing.

 

Like, easier levels, it may appear little annoying to carry and control an assortment of creatures.

And going harder, it becomes worse to keep loading, and you finally decide you NEED those wingbolt or two:-))))

[Archaeolagent]

I actually find a do a HUGELY greater number of reloads when running a Lifecrafter. Until Drayks, your creations are quite fragile, and while you can always use tactics to protect a single character, it's harder to keep eight alive every time in a big battle. Even once you hit the tougher creations, occassionally something will manage to die.

 

A disposable creations model might require even less reloads than a singleton. But that also doesn't require a Lifecrafter. An Infiltrator can run it nearly as well and far more flexibly.

[Suspicious Vlish]

You reload every time one of your Creations is killed? That's a rather silly strategy. I know that you're trying to buff up their levels, but I've found it highly impractical. Given that you're gradually increasing your Shaping skills throughout the game, it's better to just replace weaker creations with Drayks/Wingbolts.

 

A lifecrafter is dead easy, if you don't coddle your creations. You don't make creations in order to protect them... you make creations so that they will protect you.

 

I can just imagine Slarty Smirnoff the comedian:

 

"In your Geneforge game, your creations protect you. But in my game, you protect your creations!"

[Lord Safey]

I'm baised towards being the lifecrafter/shaper. Just because I like controling huge unstopable armies and a slight god complex.

[Marlenny]

Isn't the Infiltrator the GF4 version of the Agent?. I've always gone for the Agent even though I think the Lifecrafter has more power. I just can't see myself playing as one. Let along as a Guardian (Soldier). I did try playing as a Lifecrafter on GF2, but I don't really depend on creations and barely use them at all so I went back to my Agent.

[Dikiyoba]

I prefer using a shock trooper, but I don't have any objective reason for it. Well, except that I don't mess around with magic in the Geneforge Series much.

 

Dikiyoba reloads after creation death as well. The creations protect you, you protect the creations, and it all works out.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Dikiyoba:

Quote:

I prefer using a shock trooper, but I don't have any objective reason for it.

At least the shock trooper is better than infilitrator or servile.

 

Quote:

Well, except that I don't mess around with magic in the Geneforge Series much.

That's your loss. Magic tends to be far more effective than missiles.

 

Quote:

Dikiyoba reloads after creation death as well. The creations protect you, you protect the creations, and it all works out.

You shape creations for battle, and then protect them? That's contradictory.

 

Leveling up creations may be effective for the upper tiers which will not be reabsorbed (Drayks, Rotgroths, and Wingbolts). But leveling up a fyora or artila is pure madness.

 

I tend to reabsorb my creations before receiving any quest experience. This results in a high level shaper with powerful, fresh creations.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Waylander:

 

Quote:

That's your loss. Magic tends to be far more effective than missiles.

I honestly admit that I play for fun and that fun does not equal pure power or optimization for me. So it's no loss at all.

 

Quote:

You shape creations for battle, and then protect them? That's contradictory.

Not really, since I'm fighting right alongside them. When one starts getting hit too badly, I step forward to take a blow while I heal it, and they take a few blows in battles where I start getting overwhelmed.

 

Quote:

But leveling up a fyora or artila is pure madness.

But it\'s fun!

 

(And yes, Dikiyoba edited the script so Salassar never damaged himself for that battle.)

[Suspicious Vlish]

Wow, you must really suck.

 

Anyone who spends the entire game leveling up a fyora, and who also refers to themselves in third person, is obviously an inferior specimen.

[Lilith]

Be nice.

[Synergy]

I'll have to send my "sucky" Infiltrator out to teach you a lesson, if you don't stop picking on perfectly polite, reasonable, and intelligent people.

 

>

 

-S-

[Suspicious Vlish]

Your sucky infiltrator doesn't scare me any more than Dicky's fyora.

[Synergy]

THAT'S what this series needs: "Geneforge Arena," in which you can send in your suckiest PC's to fight someone else's sucky PC's and see whose really IS suckiest. I'll have Jeff get right on that.

 

-S-

[Suspicious Vlish]

Quote:

if you don't stop picking on perfectly polite, reasonable, and intelligent people.

What are you talking about? None of those (excluding myself) are present on this forum.

[Archaeolagent]

Synergy just said "Geneforge Arena".

 

...

[Acidic Helixbolt]

Won't be possible to do.

Solo'er will always act first (well, unless he's real idiot) and focus lifecrafter's own body.

 

then it gonan be a matter of pure balance:

can Infi finish Shaper first move first round?

can then all shaper's creations finish Infi in one collective strike?

 

(I am 100% confident that second turn's Agent attacks WILL kill shaper)

[Acidic Helixbolt]

Just to add to the matter of creatures death:

I prefer runnign a small party of "serious" guys, e.g. leveled with essence.

 

it takes almost the same ... "qualification" to get any1 of'em killed as to die yourself then.

 

BTW I do prefer solo strats too. The problem is a common "munchkin's" FunVsEfficency thing imho.

[DokEnkephalin]

I just finished first playthrough with a solo Infiltrator(agent), as per all the prior games. I did have to adapt a few new strategies, but they were both fun and effective when I had them figured out. Taking apart Titan was easy enough, and finishing off the invading shapers solo, and without reloading or going back for rejuve pools, was pretty satisfying.

 

I agree that daze is nerfed; it becomes obsolete to the redundant 'major daze' spell rather than gain in power with points spent in mental. This was not an imaginative use of a spell slot. But that's probably what those shapers go through when they have to say goodbye to their initial critter investments for the buff new models as they become available, rather than the later power developing on the earlier.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Originally by Waylander:

Quote:

But leveling up a fyora or artila is pure madness.

But it\'s fun!

How was the fyora in battle?

[rantalot]

Finished the game with a warrior and a life crafter. Lifecrafters are WAY more powerful.

One thing that really made me love lifecrafters are the essence pools. Essence pools make even pyroroamers useful u can send those things out 7 at a time to take care of anything, and essence pools call for an occasion to spawn those charged creations. I know I know warriors can do this too but something about beefing those creations up to the max b4 sending them out and making so many of them...it feels great.

 

Even wile playing on torment it is easy Just hold your PC back and let your creations do everything if they die chug a few essence pods and make more.

 

If you are having ANY difficulties with a lifecrafter it is probably because you are not using essence shield or you have moral issues with sending your creations to their doom just to soften up the enemy for a brand new wave.

[Suspicious Vlish]

I think the problem is that some people here who have played a Lifecrafter attempted to preserve their creations, which is both irrational, and a pain in the ass. You learn better and higher level creations throughout the game, so why bother leveling up crappy creations, which also steal a share of EXP gained?

[Fade]

They're probably rebels. All concerned with the 'rights' of their creations and not sending them to be killed in purposeless battle.

[Sir Spiff]

I find that suicide squads, while effective, get boring quick.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Stillness:

 

Quote:

How was the fyora in battle?

I only improved my fyora that much for the purpose of that battle, and it was rather ridiculous in length. The fyora could only do 60-80 in (melee) damage per attack (but it was hasted, so it got two attacks) and Salassar couldn't hit it very often, so it was mostly just sitting back and chipping away at his health. The fyora wouldn't be able to take down Salassar on torment but it can do it consistently on normal.

 

Mostly Dikiyoba just wanted to see if it was possible.

[Drakefyre]

I like the infiltrator and servile the best, basically because I like to play solo and think of myself as one man (or woman) against the world. Having to sneak around and pick off enemies one by one isn't tedious, it's fun. Sneaking and stealthing are by far the most fun components of Geneforge.