Why is Battle shaping unpopular?

[Gabriel]

When I read this forum it looks like everyone prefers creations from the Fire and Magic circles. Are battle creations totally weak or are they treated as grunts to be ignored?

 

Why doesn't doesn't anyone brag about their army of thahds or clawbugs?

[Nioca]

In GF1 through 3, battle creations were rather worthless. They could often be killed before they even reached their target. Because of the new AP system in GF4, battle creations have become useful. It's just that an army of Battle Betas still isn't quite as impressive as an army of Wingbolts.

[Abban]

Battle creations are basically meat shields. Unfortunately that makes them completely useless whenever an enemy with a ranged attack appears, because they'll never reach the enemy, never block it's attacks, and sometimes, it will get in your way.

 

In short, they suck.

 

Although they are slightly* more useful in Genforge 4.

 

*Very slightly.

[Micawber]

Personally, I quite like some battle creations. Admittedly thahds are plain useless and battle alphas, while acceptably damaging at low levels, really aren't worth their essence cost. I never tried with a war trall but I guess it is much like the battle alpha.

 

However, clawbugs are very dangerous in sufficient numbers, and plated bugs especially so with their base 10 APs. Meanwhile rotghroths are a particular favourite of mine, they have a lot of health and do a lot of damage to everything other than other roghroths.

 

Of course one can never rely solely on melee in Geneforge, because of the sheer number of turrets, pylons, and missile-based enemies. But so long as one has complementary attacks, battle creations can be a useful part of one's armoury.

[Dark Mage]

Clawbug are quite useful for the mid-begginig of the game, because they are quite well armored and almost inmune to poison, they are very useful to kill vlishes plated bug are even better. But Battle α and β aren't very good for their tier, they are just like thads(wich in fact are really bad creations)

Well it all depends of the likes of the player.

[Lilith]

Melee attacks always, always do less damage than ranged attacks. Also, battle creations don't really hit much harder in melee than other creation types do, and they don't have much more HP either.

 

In other words, they're not much better than any other creation at a kind of combat that's inferior in the first place, and they can't do anything else. War Tralls get a ranged attack, but it's not that great considering how expensive they are.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Cryptozoology:
Melee attacks always, always do less damage than ranged attacks. Also, battle creations don't really hit much harder in melee than other creation types do, and they don't have much more HP either.

In other words, they're not much better than any other creation at a kind of combat that's inferior in the first place, and they can't do anything else. War Tralls get a ranged attack, but it's not that great considering how expensive they are.

I have always thought this was odd. Since battle creatures are designed for melee they should actually be good at it. It's bizarre. Why even make a battle class?

[Sudanna]

Well, they sometimes have marginally more health than the other classes, so that's something.

 

Jeff fixed melee in G4, now he must fix the Battle Creations!

[Delicious Vlish]

Having played through the game using nothing but battle creations, I find this whole thread amusing.

 

To be completely honest, they are not all that bad. They have a fun role playing theme. And with the right character, like say, the warrior, it is great fun to lead your patrol of alphas in to battle.

[Lilith]

You're willing to play through the whole game with nothing but battle creations and yet you think a Shock Trooper is practically unplayable. I don't get you, man.

[Delicious Vlish]

Not unplayable...

 

Worthless. Sub-optimal. Poorly executed. Badly done. Could have been more and failed utterly.

 

Warrior is pretty much the same.

 

That said, the classes are very different from their creations. Things like plated bugs and clawbugs can be very, very strong in the hands of the right player. As strong as wingbolts in the hands of the same player? No. But for tactical bliss, you can create an army of bugs and absolutely steamroll the game if you should choose to do so. Betas and alphas have their place. Using the battle creations makes for a totally different game. A different play style. More of a blitzkrieg.

 

Having a punching, bashing, pincing goonsquad is just a lot of fun.

[Randomizer]

I tried battle creations in GF3 and found that thahds and later thahd shades worked well for the first few islands. I didn't try them in GF4 since fire creations were easier to obtain and there were more items to help make them earlier on in the game.

[Dark Mage]

I'm playing G3 now and I must say that I'm amused with my battle creation, betas are not that good, maybe because they are just brutish fighters, but Clawbugs and specially plated bug were really useful, especially with the old attack system, this last creation can attack a lot of targets and still move, unlike in G4, that's is a good part of the old system, if the only.

Glaaks are quite good too but their magical traits seems to makes them more fragile.

[Stillness]

Glaaks are magic, not battle.

 

I prefer the shock trooper to the lifecrafter. The only magic I really use for both is blessing. The shock trooper is handy with a blade and is more hearty. Just my preference.

[zergswarm13]

I am not a big battle user but magic creations are really good throughout the whole game.

[Darkdread]

Quote:

Originally written by The Doctor Strange:

Jeff fixed melee in G4, now he must fix the Battle Creations!

Just out of curiosity, what was the improvement done in G4? Was it the fact that you can attacke even with 1 action point available?

[Dark Mage]

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
Glaaks are magic, not battle.

Oh really??? I hadn't noticed at all!!
I mean they are melee.................

And marcelo: The new system not only make possible to attack with just 1 point, but also if you are hasted and you attack, even if you have remaining A.P. you can't move, in such case you can only attack again. No te veia ace tempo

[Darkdread]

I also used to think Glhaaks were battle beasts

I don't like not being able to move after I attacked first or cast a spell (when hasted).

 

Dark Mage: sip, no he jugado mucho geneforge estos dias, estoy con el Unreal Tournament jeje y bueno se me acabaron las vacaciones igual

[Randomizer]

You can make a melee attack after spell casting or another attack. Also there is a bug that allows you to move if you use it to search an item that isn't adjacent to you.

[Sudanna]

But you can't cast a spell and the move to make a melee attack. This is what killed the loner glass cannon strategy.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by The Doctor Strange:
But you can't cast a spell and the move to make a melee attack. This is what killed the loner glass cannon strategy.

You mean you can't cast a spell and then move unless you make a melee attack.

Besides, the glass cannon is still alive and well in the form of the Lifecrafter, although now it's more of a glass gatling gun. Synergy's had pretty good luck with a solo glass-cannon Infiltrator in G4, too.

[Retlaw May]

There is still a decent glass cannon in the infiltrator, I'm playing one right now and when all buffed up, can usually kill most things in one round. And if that doesn't work, you can create lots of disposible creations to act as shields. After all, they are only creations.

[-silver-]

I just started relying on things I ignored in the previous geneforges. now instead of "run around corner, hit turret with ice bolt, duck back around corner", I do this with my 13 AP: 1 to run around corner, 5 to attack once, 3 to ice crystal it, 3 to ice crystal it again, 1 to attack again. It doesn't live long enough to shoot back.

I have to spend more time finding the spot where I can't be cross-fired, but that just makes me feel more like I earned my right to go around with low HP

 

(in GF1-3, I just wandered around with the best armor I could grab and a sword, and sold _everything_ else. now I actually use some items occasionally)

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

whats a glass cannon?

[Nioca]

Something that possesses a lot of offensive power, but can't defend itself very well.

[Hume]

Quote:

Originally written by Cryptozoology:
You mean you can't cast a spell and then move unless you make a melee attack.

Not exactly. You can't move along, but you can move performing other actions that require moving. Melee attack is one of these. Also casting spells on a friendly unit that is out of range. You can still hit and run by manipulating a creation in the right distance and the direction you want to run after attacking, then a minor heal.

[Acidic Helixbolt]

Cryptozoology and Delicious Vlish pretty much made the whole point.

 

It is true you CAN do almost anything in Geneforge and yet somehow manage to get away with it, it’s really hard to get an absolutely unplayable build.

 

However, Battle creations are utterly inferior to mostly everything else for the same buck. Speaking of Rotghroth, basically the only battle creation worth a mention, isnt he happens to be the same tier as Wingbolt anyways?

 

What we expect and what we get:

- “Meat Shields”. Och yes, really, we’d like a meaty bulldog Battle dud to be able to withstand noticeably more love then, say, some worm, or same worm with wings, or even hollow-boned reptile (speaking of drayks)… but he isnt.

- “Meat Shields” take two. Worse then that, there is a major “special”-typed damage coming your way through the game, e.g. non-physical. Among Fire and Magic guys there’s a plenty of resistance, but Battle? Well, Clawbugs and Rots got some, but that’s it.

- “Meat Shield” take three, aka HoMM4 Tactics. Due to Geneforge’s engine, every ranged guy can shoot right through a living/walking/even attacking obstacle. Plus, the same guy can almost always move out of melee contact and use his powerful ranged attack on would-be skirmisher…

 

Resume: why would anyone want a meat shield that got no meat and shields noone?

 

- “Heavy Hitters”. OK Huston, we got an improvement there tnx to new AP system. Still, in terms of raw damage melee attack is often weak. Reason: Hasted ranged is guaranteed to deliver 2 blows. Hasted melee – not so much. Taking an average of 1.5 blows (sometimes opponents will not move out too far and sometimes they will) I’d like to see melee hitter to deliver 1,33 times the damage. Well, they don’t. Och, and it’s sometimes plainly impossible to focus critical target with melee creatures, you know, terrain, obstacles, other opponents.

- “Heavy Hitters” take two. Resistance, shmesistance, and Cryoa biting the shades. Melee dmg resistance is quite plain throughout creeps. There will be no wonders. Good thing, there will be no “takes no damage” embarassment aswell. However, quite an every opponent got, like, no resistance to some “special” damage whatsoever, so your cryodrayks/wingbolts WILL sometimes do the abovementioned miracles, and it’s not a Binomial theorem to actually manage that.

- “Heavy Hitters” take three, aka “Wow, I was sure Glaahks were battle”. Ok, guess what, I will be willing to soak ALL other problems if this one is adressed. Well, we are at a huge disadvantage of melee, we can not even deliver a heavy blow, but at least can we deliver a blow that counts nontheless? Rotghroth again being an acceptable exception, no. We will have to take classes from said Glaahks, Ur-Drakons (well THOSE pack a punch, never prevents them from adding insult to the injury), you guess – Wingbolts (Roth’s are graduated there), oldschool Vlish, etc. Battle duds used to “stun”, but that is quite a useless thing on new AP system…

 

Resume: why would anyone want a heavy hitter that hits soft?

 

Nail into a coffin, skill points:

You can easily go mono-Fire. Imba tech, fire got quite everythign you might need.

You can go mono-Magic, aside from having to avoid truly massive, energy-depleting battles you’ll do fine.

Mono-Battle basically gets you nowhere, there is nothing to go to Roths and nothing to do when those are getting obsolete.

 

Battle creatures can be fun, as pretty much anything you fancy. But looking for the least saveloads on high difficility, you will always find better options.

 

In case *someone* wonders there for my opinion on possible solutions, I’d really like it to be Battle guys to deliver the strongest debuffs upon connecting. THAT will make my picture of a Guardian (errm… how they’re called now;-)) leading a patrol of Battle Alphas.

 

P.S. Also the “glass cannon strategy” refers to the idea of putting down the whole opposition before they actually have a chance to deal that damage we can’t stand.

 

P.P.S. And yes, I was just about to start the topic on "why couldnt Battle be better" myself

[Gabriel]

Who if any of the battle creations can do a double attack? When you have the correct skills you can hit something in melee (not missle) and you attack twice.

[Lilith]

Rotghroths can get double attacks, but it happens probably somewhat less than half the time and still does less total damage than a single Wingbolt attack.

[Jeran Korak]

Wingbolt and Gazer's

[Student of Trinity]

It's worth pointing out that meat shields can be used aggressively a bit more now than before. It's not about trying to form a wall around the quarterback.

 

A pair of Rotghroths, for instance, generally move first and can be placed far forward, right in the enemies' faces, without even wasting their attack. And this usually keeps the enemy occupied exchanging whacks with your very tough Rotghroths, getting gradually worn down, while your Wingbolts and your PC go unmolested. Even enemies with dangerous ranged attacks will usually target the Rotghroth in their face instead of a more distant party member, and in confined quarters they can often be forced into melee.

 

I think my Lifecrafter's use of a Rotghroth pair was a big reason why he was so free to move about the battlefied healing and dispatching wounded, without getting shot. If the Geneforge AI were more advanced, one might speak about using battle creations to seize the initiative.