Philosophical / metaphysical question[G5]

[Uberdhizon]

No, see, because he wouldn't be there if he weren't your fyora, and you're covered in dust, cuz he's probably trying to save you.

[Feo Takahari]

If you read Children of the Mind, you know that just because it's your pet doesn't mean it's not going to eat your dead or dying body. "Thank goodness one of us will not starve" indeed.

[Lyric]

the information that one might discover in a book is not necessarily genuine/true.

[The Lurker]

(Not in the mood for arguing right now, I found a wounded bird in my garden and I'm trying to save him. I'll finish the quotes as soon as the bird issue gets settled. Wish him luck.)

[Lyric]

<< hopes the birdy gets well

[wxxqut]

They would probably go rogue after your death and that would explain them eating your body.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: The Lurker

"There is a fyora standing on the path ahead. It's a very familiar sort of creation. Shapers have made them for centuries to serve as bodyguards, watchdogs, and even pets. You've been around hundreds of them." - Narrator in Geneforge 1.

So don't dis the lil' Fyoras.

I don't dispute that some creations are independent and intelligent and adorable. Most are, in fact, I think the Geneforge PCs are in the distinct minority in their reliance on quickly kludged creations (q-k-c alliteration), but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

—Alorael, who definitely think the G5 death fyora is hungry. Or possibly responsible. Don't try to claim you can look into those cute eyes and not see a ferocious monster.

[Uberdhizon]

But it's so cute!

[pitchblack]

But cute can be, and often is, pure evil in disguise.

[Uberdhizon]

Oh, yes, I know that from experience, but

it's so freaking cute!!

[The Ratt]

Are you a girl? Because my ex used to let the cat bite her hard enough to draw blood, but do nothing about it because he looked cute doing it.

[Uberdhizon]

I was only joking.

And I am not a girl.

Quote:

I am not a girl.

Emphasis on this.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: The Ratt

Are you a girl? Because my ex used to let the cat bite her hard enough to draw blood, but do nothing about it because he looked cute doing it.

That's not healthy, but it does give me some interesting ideas for the next weapon the rebels could unleash in a purely hypothetical future Geneforge game in which the war isn't over.

—Alorael, who wouldn't get too defensive about not being a girl. No one will ever believe anyone is really a girl on the internet anyway.

[Feo Takahari]

On the Internet, nobody will ever believe anybody isn't a sex-starved teenage boy. Edit: removed statement bound to be misunderstood.

[Luca]

^Not cool

 

^

^ An Andromeda virus?

That is all.

[The Lurker]

Originally Posted By: Mythrael

<< hopes the birdy gets well

Thanks... Unfortunately, he died last night. I guess he was too badly wounded. He was still moving in his box before I fell asleep... When I went to check back on him during the night, he was dead. Hopefully I managed to ease his suffering.


Back on topic :

First of all, the manuals in GF1, GF2, GF3, GF4, and presumably GF5 clearly state that the creations you make are not without a will of their own. Read the Creations chapter.

Other quotes I find interesting :

(GF1)
begintalknode 3;
state = -1;
personality = 0;
nextstate = -1;
condition = get_sdf(41,11) == 0;
text1 = "You step into an arena. You have never been in a Shaper arena before. Creation sport combat has been illegal for well over a century. Even if it were not infested with rogues, being here would be very unsettling.";
text2 = "Today, Shapers feel some moral responsibility to their creations. This was not always the case. Shapers made creations merely to fight each other for sport. They traded recipes and pitted their pets against each other in bloody combat.";
text3 = "Today, creations fight each other only in legitimate wars, or in illegal, underground fighting pits. Places like this exist only in the dark past.";
action = SET_SDF 41 11 1;

If you could make mindless creations, then other Shapers could do it too, and have only mindless creations fight against each other without any moral problems.

(GF2)
begintalknode 3;
state = -1;
nextstate = -1;
condition = get_sdf(81,4) == 0;
question = "special";
text1 = "This is the laboratory of Akkat, one of the triad of drayks that runs Benerii-Uss. This area is full of holding pens, where fresh, experimental creations are brought for storage.";
text2 = "Then, when it comes time to examine them and see if they are improvements over existing designs, they are brought to this room. They are held frozen in place on magical platforms while Akkat and his servile assistants examine them.";
text3 = "On one of the platforms, you see a large rotghroth. It is frozen solid. Only its eyes can move. One look at them tells you that this creature is completely rogue. It is furious at its captors.";
action = SET_SDF 81 4 1;

See how freshly made creations (even fairly dumb ones like Rotghroths) often struggle against their creators?

(GF4)
begintalknode 115;
state = 109;
nextstate = 110;
condition = 1;
question = "Can I send in creations to set off the mines?";
text1 = "Dassa looks disturbed. _That is Shaper thinking. Mines are sometimes set to harm creations, but even when that happens, why would you do something so cruel? Even to a creation that just seems, to you, to be an animal._";

begintalknode 116; // pro shaper
state = 110;
nextstate = -1;
condition = get_flag(3,13) == 0;
question = "If the creations I make are animals, how can it be wrong to use them to protect myself?";
text1 = "The servile looks worried. _This is not the first time I have heard such words from a prospective._";
text2 = "The servile looks worried. _This is not the first time I have heard such words from a user of the Geneforge._";
text3 = "_But once you start seeing other living things as so cheap and useless, once you can sacrifice their lives so casually, you are not one of us anymore. That is what I feel._";
action = SET_SDF 3 13 1;
code =
if (gf(1,4) > 0)
rs(1);
else rs(2);
break;

begintalknode 117; // anti shaper
state = 110;
nextstate = -1;
condition = get_flag(3,13) == 0;
question = "You are right. I should try to protect the lives of even my simplest creations.";
text1 = "The servile nods. _As a creator, you may be owed obedience, but you have a responsibility to your creations as well._";
action = SET_SDF 3 13 1;

Self-explanatory, I think. Even if you're pro-shaper, the game forces you to admit that the creations you make are animals. The only difference is that if you're pro-shaper, you see animals as worthless.

(More GF4)
begintalknode 192;
state = -1;
nextstate = -1;
condition = 1;
question = "";
text1 = "This book is called, _The Laws of the Shapers, a Survey._ Most of it is pretty esoteric, but one early section is interesting:";
text2 = "_Shaper law is stern. The rules are many and strictly applied, and the punishments for disobeying are harsh._";
text3 = "_The Shapers claim that their rules are justified by the need to control their power. They claim that, without their efforts, rogue Shapers could do incredible harm. Of course, they use this to justify never sharing their skills._";
text4 = "_Their most fundamental rule is that nobody outside their sect can learn about Shaping. Any outsider, as they call us, who tries to learn about or practice their craft is executed. The rule is harsh and practiced without exception._";
text5 = "_All creations must obey the Shapers totally. Any creation who disobeys is called 'Rogue' and destroyed. Some creation types, like drayks, are Barred. They are always considered to be rogue and destroyed on sight._";
text6 = "_To the Shapers' credit, they have rules restricting how creations can be treated. Gratuitous cruelty is forbidden, as is pitting creations against each other in an arena setting. Of course, these humane rules do not justify their many faults._";

Yet another reference to the anti-arena laws.

(Yet more GF4)
begintalknode 197;
state = -1;
nextstate = -1;
condition = 1;
question = "special";
text1 = "Turrets are strange creatures, part plant, part fungus, part mammal. They are mostly mindless, and notoriously poor conversationalists.";

As I said, few creations are "mostly mindless". Only turrets, pylons, golems (who aren't even alive, not counting the ones that hold a spirit inside them) and peculiar experiments are "mostly mindless". Even control creatures (like the ones in Poryphra South Road and Quessa-Uss) can feel pain, irritation, and relief.

(GF4)
begintalknode 19;
state = 11;
nextstate = 12;
condition = 1;
question = "And what crime did you commit?";
text1 = "_Something harsh enough to be punished, but not enough to merit death. There are limits on what we Shapers can do to our creations. And those who exceed those bounds are cast out._";

Heh. I wonder what Uchitelle did...

(GF4)
begintalknode 1;
state = -1;
nextstate = -1;
condition = get_sdf(52,1) == 0;
question = "special";
text1 = "At last, you have reached Shaper Monarch's inner sanctum. This is where he creates his rogues and sends them out into the world. The air around you is full of essence and the hum of raw magical power.";
text2 = "And the howling ... you can hear the creations. There are hordes of them, howling with madness as they stumble out toward the light.";
text3 = "Their crazed cries echo back and forth through the caves. It is amazing that Shaper Monarch is able to maintain control on them long enough to get them to leave. Normally, rogues like these will attack a Shaper instantly.";

Self-explanatory. Shaper Monarch is having a lot of trouble controlling his dumb, freshly made creations.

(GF4)
begintalknode 52;
state = 50;
nextstate = -1;
condition = gf(50,1) > 0;
question = "Smash the baton.";
text1 = "For just a moment, Shaper Monarch panics and fails to defend the baton. Though he pretended that it was a cane, you knew that it was much more. You lunge at him and, before he realizes what you are doing, smash the baton.";
text2 = "He leaps to his feet and howls. _No! It ... It can't!_ And then he looks around, fully realizing what you have done to him.";
text3 = "He hears the screams of the creations, and, finally, he shares the same sick, terrified feeling the people of the Fens of Aziraph have had since he emerged. At last, he knows the sensation of being hunted.";

Again, self-explanatory.

(GF4)
begintalknode 7;
state = -1;
nextstate = -1;
condition = 1;
question = "special";
text1 = "The Shapers have left several serviles in this workshop. You suspect that they are technicians, designed and trained to maintain the traps in the fields to the south.";
text2 = "You try to speak with them, but they are practically catatonic. You can't get them to register your presence. Then just eat, drink, stare off into space, and wait until it's time to go to work.";
text3 = "You knew that the Shapers were taking extreme steps to prevent further rebellion among the creations, but even by current standards these drones are exceptional.";

See how rare it is to have a creation that is both mindless and capable of moving?

[Sleeping Dragon]

Nice research, the Lurker. Though I must disagree with you on the golem point. The new game, at least, says multiple times that golems are in fact a living creature within a stone shell. I get the impression that they're a lot like heavily modified living tools or something.

[The Lurker]

Apologies, but, as you know, I'm a PC user, so I wouldn't know about GF5.

 

In the first four GFs, though, Golems really do look like machines, with the exception of the "possessed" ones like Bound One and Matala.

 

Say, would anyone mind packaging the GF5 script files and making them available for download for the PC users? I don't think Jeff would mind, seeing as the GF demos already have every single script file.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: The Lurker

Originally Posted By: Mythrael

<< hopes the birdy gets well

First of all, the manuals in GF1, GF2, GF3, GF4, and presumably GF5 clearly state that the creations you make are not without a will of their own. Read the Creations chapter.[/url]
Good evidence, but not perfect. They clearly have a will, as they can go semi-rogue and run away, or you can use the AI and have them attack at will. I just don't think they have much more than basic instincts, and that includes the ability to truly act independently.

Quote:

(GF1)
begintalknode 3;
state = -1;
personality = 0;
nextstate = -1;
condition = get_sdf(41,11) == 0;
text1 = "You step into an arena. You have never been in a Shaper arena before. Creation sport combat has been illegal for well over a century. Even if it were not infested with rogues, being here would be very unsettling.";
text2 = "Today, Shapers feel some moral responsibility to their creations. This was not always the case. Shapers made creations merely to fight each other for sport. They traded recipes and pitted their pets against each other in bloody combat.";
text3 = "Today, creations fight each other only in legitimate wars, or in illegal, underground fighting pits. Places like this exist only in the dark past.";
action = SET_SDF 41 11 1;

If you could make mindless creations, then other Shapers could do it too, and have only mindless creations fight against each other without any moral problems.

Maybe, but I already think that most shapers don't rely on temporary creations like yours. The arena would still be wrong if the creatures were permanent. And actually, since even your temporary creatures can respond to pain, it's wrong regardless.

(GF2)
begintalknode 3;
state = -1;
nextstate = -1;
condition = get_sdf(81,4) == 0;
question = "special";
text1 = "This is the laboratory of Akkat, one of the triad of drayks that runs Benerii-Uss. This area is full of holding pens, where fresh, experimental creations are brought for storage.";
text2 = "Then, when it comes time to examine them and see if they are improvements over existing designs, they are brought to this room. They are held frozen in place on magical platforms while Akkat and his servile assistants examine them.";
text3 = "On one of the platforms, you see a large rotghroth. It is frozen solid. Only its eyes can move. One look at them tells you that this creature is completely rogue. It is furious at its captors.";
action = SET_SDF 81 4 1;

See how freshly made creations (even fairly dumb ones like Rotghroths) often struggle against their creators?

Freshly-made creations probably made in a lab, definitely made experimentally, and therefore solidly in the permanent category that I'm not denying. Note that the creations you make never go rogue immediately, nor do the spontaneous creations made by several enemy shapers.

Quote:

(GF4)
begintalknode 115;
state = 109;
nextstate = 110;
condition = 1;
question = "Can I send in creations to set off the mines?";
text1 = "Dassa looks disturbed. _That is Shaper thinking. Mines are sometimes set to harm creations, but even when that happens, why would you do something so cruel? Even to a creation that just seems, to you, to be an animal._";

Cruelty to beings that feel pain is cruelty to beings that feel pain. And it bodes well if you treat something that is shaped poorly; you'd likely do it to other shaped things.

Quote:

begintalknode 116; // pro shaper
state = 110;
nextstate = -1;
condition = get_flag(3,13) == 0;
question = "If the creations I make are animals, how can it be wrong to use them to protect myself?";
text1 = "The servile looks worried. _This is not the first time I have heard such words from a prospective._";
text2 = "The servile looks worried. _This is not the first time I have heard such words from a user of the Geneforge._";
text3 = "_But once you start seeing other living things as so cheap and useless, once you can sacrifice their lives so casually, you are not one of us anymore. That is what I feel._";
action = SET_SDF 3 13 1;
code =
if (gf(1,4) > 0)
rs(1);
else rs(2);
break;

begintalknode 117; // anti shaper
state = 110;
nextstate = -1;
condition = get_flag(3,13) == 0;
question = "You are right. I should try to protect the lives of even my simplest creations.";
text1 = "The servile nods. _As a creator, you may be owed obedience, but you have a responsibility to your creations as well._";
action = SET_SDF 3 13 1;

Self-explanatory, I think. Even if you're pro-shaper, the game forces you to admit that the creations you make are animals. The only difference is that if you're pro-shaper, you see animals as worthless.

Good evidence for your side, actually. Still, I'm not sure exactly what level of animal these are. They can be pretty mentally absent and still not deserving of suffering. And again, your treatment of your essentially mindless creations would reflect very strongly on your attitudes towards shaped beings in general. A moral shaper should treat all his creations well no matter how little sentience they possess.

Quote:

(More GF4)
begintalknode 192;
state = -1;
nextstate = -1;
condition = 1;
question = "";
text1 = "This book is called, _The Laws of the Shapers, a Survey._ Most of it is pretty esoteric, but one early section is interesting:";
text2 = "_Shaper law is stern. The rules are many and strictly applied, and the punishments for disobeying are harsh._";
text3 = "_The Shapers claim that their rules are justified by the need to control their power. They claim that, without their efforts, rogue Shapers could do incredible harm. Of course, they use this to justify never sharing their skills._";
text4 = "_Their most fundamental rule is that nobody outside their sect can learn about Shaping. Any outsider, as they call us, who tries to learn about or practice their craft is executed. The rule is harsh and practiced without exception._";
text5 = "_All creations must obey the Shapers totally. Any creation who disobeys is called 'Rogue' and destroyed. Some creation types, like drayks, are Barred. They are always considered to be rogue and destroyed on sight._";
text6 = "_To the Shapers' credit, they have rules restricting how creations can be treated. Gratuitous cruelty is forbidden, as is pitting creations against each other in an arena setting. Of course, these humane rules do not justify their many faults._";

Yet another reference to the anti-arena laws.[/url]
And again maybe having to do with the fact that the vast majority of creations are not temporary.

(Yet more GF4)
begintalknode 197;
state = -1;
nextstate = -1;
condition = 1;
question = "special";
text1 = "Turrets are strange creatures, part plant, part fungus, part mammal. They are mostly mindless, and notoriously poor conversationalists.";

As I said, few creations are "mostly mindless". Only turrets, pylons, golems (who aren't even alive, not counting the ones that hold a spirit inside them) and peculiar experiments are "mostly mindless". Even control creatures (like the ones in Poryphra South Road and Quessa-Uss) can feel pain, irritation, and relief.

They are permanent and nearly but not quite mindless. They have to act independently, actually, so while they're not cognitive powerhouses they do have some self. I think they may be around the same level of intellect as all your shaped creatures, though, including the normally intelligent ones like drayks.

Quote:

(GF4)
begintalknode 19;
state = 11;
nextstate = 12;
condition = 1;
question = "And what crime did you commit?";
text1 = "_Something harsh enough to be punished, but not enough to merit death. There are limits on what we Shapers can do to our creations. And those who exceed those bounds are cast out._";

Heh. I wonder what Uchitelle did...

Permanent vs. temporary again.

Quote:

(GF4)
begintalknode 1;
state = -1;
nextstate = -1;
condition = get_sdf(52,1) == 0;
question = "special";
text1 = "At last, you have reached Shaper Monarch's inner sanctum. This is where he creates his rogues and sends them out into the world. The air around you is full of essence and the hum of raw magical power.";
text2 = "And the howling ... you can hear the creations. There are hordes of them, howling with madness as they stumble out toward the light.";
text3 = "Their crazed cries echo back and forth through the caves. It is amazing that Shaper Monarch is able to maintain control on them long enough to get them to leave. Normally, rogues like these will attack a Shaper instantly.";

Self-explanatory. Shaper Monarch is having a lot of trouble controlling his dumb, freshly made creations.

Monarch is obviously not making the temporary kind, as he is turning them loose to act independently and creating so many that they're clearly not relying on any personal reservoir of power.

Quote:

(GF4)
begintalknode 52;
state = 50;
nextstate = -1;
condition = gf(50,1) > 0;
question = "Smash the baton.";
text1 = "For just a moment, Shaper Monarch panics and fails to defend the baton. Though he pretended that it was a cane, you knew that it was much more. You lunge at him and, before he realizes what you are doing, smash the baton.";
text2 = "He leaps to his feet and howls. _No! It ... It can't!_ And then he looks around, fully realizing what you have done to him.";
text3 = "He hears the screams of the creations, and, finally, he shares the same sick, terrified feeling the people of the Fens of Aziraph have had since he emerged. At last, he knows the sensation of being hunted.";

Again, self-explanatory.

But again, it explains control of permanent creations, not temporary ones.

Quote:

(GF4)
begintalknode 7;
state = -1;
nextstate = -1;
condition = 1;
question = "special";
text1 = "The Shapers have left several serviles in this workshop. You suspect that they are technicians, designed and trained to maintain the traps in the fields to the south.";
text2 = "You try to speak with them, but they are practically catatonic. You can't get them to register your presence. Then just eat, drink, stare off into space, and wait until it's time to go to work.";
text3 = "You knew that the Shapers were taking extreme steps to prevent further rebellion among the creations, but even by current standards these drones are exceptional.";

See how rare it is to have a creation that is both mindless and capable of moving?

They're mindless and still expected to act on their own. That's exactly what your creations don't do: they're mindless and act almost exclusively under your personal direction. Leave them alone and they don't wander around, they stand stock-still and wait. The only exceptions are if they're injured to the point of going semi-rogue or they have so little intelligence that they'll attack enemies on their own.

—Alorael, who will clarify his views. Your creations are alive and can feel and respond to stimuli, including pain. They have some basic rights not to be tormented. On the other hand, they don't have independent existences. Absorbing one isn't killing an independent being, because it has direct effects on your life. It also isn't amputating a limb, because the suffering is not experienced by the you that survives. Maybe the closest analogy is (unfortunately, for loaded debate) embryos: they're being that aren't you but that are dependent on you to an extent that would be parasitic if you weren't voluntarily creating them. And unlike embryos they never get past their utter dependence. (Also unlike embryos they are clearly fully capable of feeling pain and have at least some recognition of self.)

[Aoslare]

I don't think packaging the Geneforge scripts and making them publicly available is a good idea. At any rate, if you really feel the need to do that, I would email Jeff first and ask permission. Redistributing a substantial portion of the games in modified form is definitely not approved under the software licenses.

[The Lurker]

Thanks for the clarification, Alorael. I think I might have slightly misunderstood your previous posts, as we seem to agree. The creations made by the PCs are, indeed, unlikely to be able to have a life on their own - I doubt you could just release them by snapping your fingers. In fact, a few creations are completely lost and may suffer from severe mental imbalance once their master is killed.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: The Lurker

The creations made by the PCs are, indeed, unlikely to be able to have a life on their own - I doubt you could just release them by snapping your fingers.

You do something very similiar to that when you leave Sucia Island.

Dikiyoba.

[Sleeping Dragon]

I still have to humble disagree with you, Alorael. There is simply no evidence to suggest that your creations are any more reliant on you than are rogues in the woods. I believe their complete obedience comes from the fact that you are concentrating so much essence into controlling them. And I also note that when you die, they continue existing, which seems like pretty good proof that they are not as dependent on you as you seem to think.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: The Lurker

In the first four GFs, though, Golems really do look like machines, with the exception of the "possessed" ones like Bound One and Matala.

It seems likely that there are different kinds of golem. Nearly everything the Shapers make is at least partially biological, though.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

I still have to humble disagree with you, Alorael. There is simply no evidence to suggest that your creations are any more reliant on you than are rogues in the woods. I believe their complete obedience comes from the fact that you are concentrating so much essence into controlling them. And I also note that when you die, they continue existing, which seems like pretty good proof that they are not as dependent on you as you seem to think.

I'm not sure they're supposed to keep existing when you die, and we've already argued the essence. Basically, it seems clear that other shapers don't invest their own essence permanently, and the fact that the essence required to control is the total cost of the creation is a suspicious coincidence. It seems more likely that the essence that is really just yours means the creation is also really just yours.

 

—Alorael, who would believe otherwise if it were somehow possible to release rather than absorbing. No matter how nice to your critters you are, though, they have to stop existing to be replaced.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Well, that Fyora in the picture Dikiyoba posted still exists when you die, despite what you may think it's 'supposed' to do I'm not sure why you think that, as I don't think there are hardly even any examples in the game of any Shaper's creations dying upon the death of their creator. I also I don't understand why you assume the PC is different from every other Shaper with this whole link to creations thing. Other Shapers invest a lot in their creations just like you do, like Guardian Makar, and his creations also continue to live even after he dies.

 

As for releasing creations, this is just something Jeff didn't program (your own army of rogues was too much I guess). I think you should be convinced by the fact that other Shapers make loyal creations all the time that they either release or even give to outsiders (who can't use essence) to control. I believe that essence link is only there when the Shaper is exerting extreme control over that creation and when he chooses to he can release the creation at any time and replace that essence again.

[Dikiyoba]

In a semi-related question, has it ever been stated whether storing essence in your body is limited to Shapers/lifecrafters or whether anyone can do it?

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

In a semi-related question, has it ever been stated whether storing essence in your body is limited to Shapers/lifecrafters or whether anyone can do it?

Anyone can do it, but it requires training to do it well and is also illegal if you're not a Shaper.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Does it say anyone can do it? I always assumed it was more like a rare talent than only some people possessed.

[Alorael at Large]

I think someone talks about it in G5.

 

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Well, that Fyora in the picture Dikiyoba posted still exists when you die, despite what you may think it's 'supposed' to do I'm not sure why you think that, as I don't think there are hardly even any examples in the game of any Shaper's creations dying upon the death of their creator. I also I don't understand why you assume the PC is different from every other Shaper with this whole link to creations thing. Other Shapers invest a lot in their creations just like you do, like Guardian Makar, and his creations also continue to live even after he dies.

Because other shapers are not investing their own essence in their creations. They are usually using essence pools and other stored, external essence, and the creations aren't even necessarily made by them, just controlled by them. I definitely got the impression that Makar was commanding but not shaping his army.

 

Quote:

As for releasing creations, this is just something Jeff didn't program (your own army of rogues was too much I guess). I think you should be convinced by the fact that other Shapers make loyal creations all the time that they either release or even give to outsiders (who can't use essence) to control. I believe that essence link is only there when the Shaper is exerting extreme control over that creation and when he chooses to he can release the creation at any time and replace that essence again.

And I think you have it backwards. Shapers make creations all the time that they keep loyal with concentration, not essence. They can be released because they are made with independent essence. Jeff didn't program the ability to make such permanent creations that can be released, not simply the inability to release creations.

 

—Alorael, who still thinks too many arguments are trying to hinge on the existence of permanent creations that are controlled but not dependent. That's beyond argument, but it does not disprove the existence of other, dependent creatures.

[Dikiyoba]

Again, you just leave your creations standing at the docks at the end of G1. You don't absorb them and it doesn't effect any future shaping you do.

 

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Anyone can do it, but it requires training to do it well and is also illegal if you're not a Shaper.

Well, here's the thing. Almost all spells that the PC can cast cost essence. So every magic-user has to be storing essence in order to cast spells or know a different set of spells than the PC. Which does cover a lot of magic-users, but not, say, Ciphar. (He's the farmer in G2 with a spellbook in his house.) The Shapers don't seem to have any problem letting him learn that spell, despite the fact that it costs essence when the PC casts it.

 

Honestly, I think the essence tied up in creations and used in spells is more of a representation of mental fatigue than actual essence use.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Acky]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Honestly, I think the essence tied up in creations and used in spells is more of a representation of mental fatigue than actual essence use.

I've always been under the impression that that's spell energy

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Well, here's the thing. Almost all spells that the PC can cast cost essence. So every magic-user has to be storing essence in order to cast spells or know a different set of spells than the PC. Which does cover a lot of magic-users, but not, say, Ciphar. (He's the farmer in G2 with a spellbook in his house.) The Shapers don't seem to have any problem letting him learn that spell, despite the fact that it costs essence when the PC casts it.

Come to think of it, the blacksmith in Mera says that manipulating essence without actually creating life is on the border of Shaper law: you don't necessarily have to be a Shaper to do it, but you do need special permission from a Shaper. It's likely that magic falls into the same grey area, since several characters throughout the series mention that it's a serious crime to teach or use magic without permission (but not as serious as doing the same with Shaping).

[Alorael at Large]

I think one mage or another says as much in G5. Magic requires permission too, or at least essence-using magic (i.e. almost all of it) does.

 

—Alorael, who didn't know that about G1. If that's true then his theory falls apart rather fast. Oh well. It had a good run. Unless... they just fall apart if you're not close enough!

[The Lurker]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Again, you just leave your creations standing at the docks at the end of G1. You don't absorb them and it doesn't effect any future shaping you do.

Oh. I remember that now. Still, it might have taken extra energy to do it - there's undoubtedly a special kind of bond between you and your creations. Maybe you slightly reshaped their brains so they could survive on their own, and even then they might not have been happy about it (just like the Obeyers weren't happy without the Shapers). And maybe you only did it because the Shapers were going to come back to Sucia Island soon and "take care" of all the remaining creations.

[The Lurker]

Okay, forget what I said about uploading the scripts, I found a program to extract DMG files on PCs and am currently reading the GF5 scripts. Yay!

[Aoslare]

The end of G1 is a special case which is completely contradictory to the way the PC's creations work at every other moment of every game. It's hard to conclude much from it at all.

 

I'm almost certain there's a comment in G1 or G2 about the distinction between "permanent" creations and the ones you shape, due to the "I'm just a trainee who has acquired a lot of skills quickly, but not all the skills of a full shaper" mantra that is repeated so often in those games.

[Milla]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

In a semi-related question, has it ever been stated whether storing essence in your body is limited to Shapers/lifecrafters or whether anyone can do it?

Dikiyoba.

Not far into G2 (When you enter the Shaping Hall in the starting map) The dialogue describes what essence is then says "A shaper such as yourself has the ability to hold essence within your body to be used to make life later." I think it sort of implies what you mentioned. But I wonder if it is something that can be trained or if it's genetic- Only people with ability to hold essence can qualify to become shapers. Of course there would be many that could do it but didn't follow the shaping path for whatever reason.

If it's genetic it probably to first thing that the geneforge changes if a non-shaper uses it, give them the essence-storing gene.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Given the fact that an unaugmented servile can not shape, it must be genetic. The question is whether or not all human have that gene when they are born.

[jlsgaladriel]

Quote:

He's probably just trying to decide whether you're still fresh enough to eat, y'know.

/cries

No! Not fred!

I think I *would* feel a little fake-moral twinge in absorbing one of my creations, and I very rarely have done so. In earlier versions this moral twinge made for good gameplay, because older creations were so much more powerful than newer ones; the difference doesn't seem so large in G5.

But then, I always felt an odd moral twinge in World of Warcraft when asked to kill Eleks for their tusks, so maybe I'm just an odd role-player...

[pitchblack]

Yes: You play World of Warcraft.

[Milla]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Given the fact that an unaugmented servile can not shape, it must be genetic. The question is whether or not all human have that gene when they are born.

That is an interesting point. In my mind not all humans have it. But it can be gained by using canisters by acccident (the Sholai in G1-a random luck of the draw.) or design (The specially made canister for the rebel on the second island in G3.

I think the fact that you have no shaping ability before getting geneforged in G4 speaks for something too.

[Paladin95]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Again, you just leave your creations standing at the docks at the end of G1. You don't absorb them and it doesn't effect any future shaping you do.

Unless you become so much more powerful that the tied-up essence is negligible?

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Honestly, I think the essence tied up in creations and used in spells is more of a representation of mental fatigue than actual essence use.

That said, I find this explanation more satisfactory on account of the various shapers you meet with around 200 hp but controlling a huge army of creations inconsistent with the essence they would have at that kind of level (i.e. G3 Shaper Diwaniya).

[Alorael at Large]

Why is 200 HP more acceptable with a strong mind than with big essence reservoirs? For your example, I still think my original hypothesis of internal/external essence or temporary/permanent essence works better. You can have relatively weak shapers with huge armies if they have the time and equipment to make their creations slowly and methodically. Or, in Monarch's case, quickly and insanely.

 

—Alorael, who would like to know if the origins of the Shapers' empire is ever given. He'd be unsurprised if it all started with the first shaper. Discover new magic, create an army, conquer a small area. Find some likely disciples, train them to do the same. Repeat over generations and you have a happy little domain.

[Uberdhizon]

And then you get betrayed by a person who questions your methods, and you have a rebellion on your hands.

[Dikiyoba]

Quote:

—Alorael, who would like to know if the origins of the Shapers' empire is ever given.

They originated on Sucia Island thousands of years ago.

Dikiyoba.

[Milla]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Quote:

—Alorael, who would like to know if the origins of the Shapers' empire is ever given.

They originated on Sucia Island thousands of years ago.

Dikiyoba.

And they kind of screwed that up. Most of the died to created diseases and people they accidentally shaped stronger when they tried to conquer them.

They fled the now environmentally screwed island to mainland where they started all over again with the conquering.

[Aoslare]

That's all detailed in G1 in the hidden area, btw.

[Milla]

Quote:

begintalknode 34;
state = 31;
nextstate = -1;
condition = 1;
question = "Why are drayks and serviles the servants?";
text1 = "_Because the drakons are the ones who were created to be able to shape. Barzahl of the Rising determined what quality humans had that enables them to absorb and work essence and gave that trait to the drakons._";
text2 = "_He thought he would use them as servants. He was wrong._";

Looking through the Geneforge 2 scripts I've just confirmed that the ability to hold essence is genetic. I'm still maintaining that not all humans can have this trait. Reading further turns out I was wrong. Apparently any human with magical training can do it. But I think Shapers probably have an affinity for it.

begintalknode 61;
state = 54;
nextstate = 55;
condition = 1;
question = "What is so special about being a drakon?";
text1 = "_We are big and strong, but that is not all. We have a quality otherwise only had by humans. We can hold essence._";
text2 = "_Humans with magical training can absorb essence into themselves and use it to Shape. So can we. Drakons are the first creation that can Shape._";
text3 = "_And we will use that power, no matter what it costs, for our ultimate goal._";
begintalknode 3;