Why there? *warning: displays secret of G1*

[Retlaw May]

So there are two Shaper continents, and Sucia Island is off of the second, less settled of the two Shaper continents. But the secret of G1 is that Shapers originated from people from Sucia. So why is the Shaper power base on the other continent? Shouldn't the area closer to the Shaper's orgins be the ones first settled?

[Swimmin' Salmon]

First settled, but that island is junk as far as resources go. It is much better to conquer existing infrastructure in resource rich lands than it is to build all that stuff yourself. You have to remember that Shapers are basically evil and have little regard for nature or life. It is natural for them to rape and pillage a landscape, just to scrape together a few more icy crystals. Now they have done the same with the continent, and we see widespread revolt as a result. They are bad people, and must be stopped at any cost.

[Sudanna]

Shame on you, Salmon! Apologize to the nice Shapers!

 

Most likely, only Shaping was developed by Sucian natives. Then it spread to the other continents, the further of which was the most settled.

 

And Salmon lies. He's like the Three-Wish fish.

[Dikiyoba]

But the Shapers did (and still do) have the habit of wiping out all other cultures and peoples that they ran across.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

The continents were most likely settled by the time shaping was discovered.

[Eugi]

I strongly disagree with your assemsnet Salmon. No one in the Geneforge games is straight evil or straight good. No one's "basically evil" or "basically good" either. What keeps people interested in the GF series is that there's no Hollywood ending and each side has its pluses and minuses.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

I agree it is difficult to recognize the evil within. It is the discovery of that evil, and the struggle to deal with the moral dilemna, that makes the Geneforge series so playable. If you choose to see their world view as other than evil, so be it. I'm not sure the native peoples of Terrestria would agree with you though.

[Leftover Sauerkraut]

Perhaps the Sucian Natives sent out in the wrong direction on the sea (such as sailing from Europe, around the Americas, and finally reaching China [though I doubt it])

 

I like Emp's idea better that the islands were already settled and one of the continents were just settled more.

[Lord Safey]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyobot:
But the Shapers did (and still do) have the habit of wiping out all other cultures and peoples that they ran across.

Dikiyoba.

I find the such civilations aren't entirely innocent. I veiwing more as survial of the fittest like the romans versus the carthegians both are horrible desicple empires the romans merly won.

[Lord Safey]

its also possible that shapers might have migrated once on the mainland. Keep in mind they just because the final results were that they were succesful doesn't mean they always where. They could have lost a few battles here and their and have been forced to move.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Why is it so difficult for you folks to accept the evidence already present in the games? Why do you prefer to create these fantastic scenarios whereby the poor, poor shapers have to battle relentless enemies and overwhelming odds in order to scrape together some sort of meager existence?

 

The shapers are cruel men and women that are bent on two things. World domination and total dictatorial control over all life forms. Kind of like a malignant virus. That you try to make up excuses for them, and perhaps even relate to them, speaks loudly and eloquently.

[Retlaw May]

Yes, I agree with Salmon! I would much rather have giant lizards rule over me in a dictorial fashion. I love those cuddly green peices of $#!% that tell me that they know whats best for all as they release their toxic new buddies into my farmland. I especially love the new viruses being created by the altered humans without any true knowledge of shaping. While we're at it why not just stuff me in a work camp with a sign saying "Work will set you free".?

 

All this is much better than my middle class life that I am currently living. It will be much better than the stability I so hate currently. I will especially be glad to be free from having to occasionally keep my mouth shut in the rare instance that I actually meet a Shaper. I'd rather have one of my reptilian overlords blast me for not humping their leg as they walk by.

[Eugi]

Salmon, you are welcome to your opinion of course but I find it foolhardy to make such sweeping generalizations of the Shapers.

 

Most of what I find is that the Shapers simply lack compassion. I recall several examples from GF3/GF4 where regular people are upset with the Shapers because they can't see the reason behind the Shaper's actions (and the Shaper's can't or don't want to soften the blow).

 

For example - the family of the South Forge Guard that died due to a famine because the Shapers refused to give that region shaped crops to resist the crop plague that was going on there. The Shapers were right - introducing such shaped crops would have created potentially disastroues consequences for the region later on. However the Shapers also failed to alleviate the crisis in any way.

 

In GF3 the perfect example is the quarantine imposed on the Islands. Most everyone recognizes it's necessary to prevent the spread of the Rogues, but once again the Shapers fail to do anything to alleviate the plight of the "common man".

 

Conclusion: the Shapers need to "shape" themselves a pbulic relations team.

 

All this aside, I'm glad that you, at least, aren't calling the Rebellion "good".

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Eugi:
Salmon, you are welcome to your opinion of course but

You know, this kind of statement has always come off as a little condescending to me. It seems to say "I don't have any confidence of converting you to my side so I'm going to try and pass this off as a difference of opinion while at the same time suggesting that you're just not intelligent enough to see the wisdom in mine."

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Eugi:

 

Quote:

Most of what I find is that the Shapers simply lack compassion. I recall several examples from GF3/GF4 where regular people are upset with the Shapers because they can't see the reason behind the Shaper's actions (and the Shaper's can't or don't want to soften the blow).

But if the Shapers have no compassion for ordinary people, then how to do we know that they are trustworthy? That is, how do we know they are working for or even care about ordinary people at all? If they don't have the best interests of the ordinary people in mind, then what are they working for, and why should ordinary people support the Shapers? And even if they do have the interests of ordinary people in mind, can we trust them to make the right decisions?

 

Quote:

The Shapers were right - introducing such shaped crops would have created potentially disastroues consequences for the region later on. However the Shapers also failed to alleviate the crisis in any way.

Or so the Shapers claim. There's no one to back them up. And the Shapers don't mind trying to create crops despite the risk in other areas, like Drypeak (and perhaps Sucia Island). Why was this area different? Was the risk of disease and damaging the environment the real reason for denying the farmers their request for new crops when the Shapers couldn't even be bothered to provide extra food or to clearly explain why they couldn't help. How do we know that the Shapers just didn't want to spare the resources to help out such a poor and remote area?

 

Quote:

In GF3 the perfect example is the quarantine imposed on the Islands. Most everyone recognizes it's necessary to prevent the spread of the Rogues, but once again the Shapers fail to do anything to alleviate the plight of the "common man".

And that worked out really well, right? It sure stopped the spread of the rogues, didn't it? Quarantining Ashen Isles was a colossal failure. The abandonment of Sucia Island was another. The clean up of Sucia Island was yet another. And how many poisonous dumps and sealed areas have we seen in four games? Plus, there's all the pylons and rogue creations the Shapers use that kill indiscriminately--are those really good for ordinary people?

 

Dikiyoba isn't going so far as to say that the Shapers are evil. Dikiyoba also realizes that this could apply to the Rebellion or just about every government or society. But how can you blindly pledge your support to the Shapers when you are just one problem away from becoming rogue food or having a toxic dump in your backyard? And how can you condemn the Rebellion for all their mistakes when the Shapers have such a poor record after centuries of practice?

[Randomizer]

Considering how the Shaper ancestors trashed Sucia Island before heading to the mainland, it's probable that they didn't do that great a job when the started on the mainland. They probably moved on until they got some significant control on shaping. The fact that they had forgotten about coming from Sucia Island implies that they hid the information or had moved so far that no longer knew the area.

[Sudanna]

Why is it so horribly impossible that Shaping spread peacefully? Both continents could have already been settled before Shaping was developed. Shaping was developed by a group of mages and scientists on Sucia, used haphazardly until the Shapers realized its dangerous power, and then simply spread. No wars, no wiping out natives. It was developed, used haphazardly only on Sucia, contained, and then taught? Or is that not dramatically brutal enough for Salmon's model of Shapers as Nazi-analogues?

[Swimmin' Salmon]

The OP asked a simple question which I answered in its entirety. It wasn't off the cuff even, as I have studied that same question as it pertains to our planet. To wit, why did civilisation take hold in certain parts of the world, and why didn't it happen in others. Why did some societies succeed, and others fail. It is really quite simple. A successful society is one that continues to exist over time and expands territory as its citizenship needs more raw materials supply. On our planet we have many examples of success, and even more that failed. For instance, an example of success would be France. Really any European country, but France in particular, since it retained itself in spite of centuries of Roman influence.

Failures can be seen as close as within the United States itself. Ask any Indian if their society won or lost. In fact, ask any true native American. One might argue that we are all immigrants, but for this case let's assume that the first group of human beings that survived and settled for 500 years can be called the natives. They are all conquered by Europeans. Every last one. From their perspective, the conquerors are not heroic figures that freed them from a life of oppression and servitude, they are evil donkeys who first killed directly, and then indirectly, then enslaved the last few natives until entire cultures had been wiped from the face of our very own planet.

 

So you tell me. Were those actions evil or good?

 

The Shapers may not have directly enslaved anyone. Oh wait. They have serviles, which they made, presumably from not humans. Right. And they shape creatures for what? Beauty? No, they shape beasts of war and beasts for food. What on earth (or Terrestria) do you think they need these things for? So they can peacefully rule a placid and happy population? Or is it because they are scared to death that all the crap they have sown throughout their existance is going to come back to get them?

 

It did. The Rebellion happened as a direct result of the actions of the shapers. Much like I would never endorse or support the current regime in Cuba, or admire in any way the methods it used to gain and retain power, I also realize that President Batista was a complete jerk and was doing no favors for Cuba. It really sucks that one bad form of government is most easily replaced with a worse form, but that isn't alway apparent during the change. But one begets the other, and while I don't like the Rebellion, or the methods they use, I believe 100% that the Shapers had it coming and in fact it was destined to happen the minute that the Shapers came into existence.

 

Now, after this break we will return to your regularly scheduled program.

 

Edit - Nalyd. Your compulsion to place comparisions to Nazism is both pathetic and naive. There is far more to the world than the simplification you desire, and more depth to this debate than you could possibly plumb.

[Sudanna]

True enough. But "Nazi" is such a convenient term. We hate it so much that we use it a lot. And don't underestimate Nalyd.

 

The Shapers made serviles because they disliked doing menial labor. And, really, most of the serviles actually enjoy serving. If the Shapers were truly sadistic and cruel, then they wouldn't even bother to make serviles. They would, as you said, enslave existing humans. The serviles were made specifically because they didn't want to harm humans, which are currently the dominant species. Serviles were made dumb and ignorant, dependent on the Shapers. They only develop dissident beliefs when they are corrupted by the Rebels, or when they simply grew up away from the Shapers, like on Sucia.

 

They Shape beasts for food because it is significantly easier than working with the comparatively inferior livestock currently available. And they don't Shape everything they eat. They make their creations with the capacity to breed.

 

They make creations for war because said creations are superior to most humans and are far more expendable. If you had an easy enough alternative that involved no loss of human life and little human effort, while simultaneously greatly increasing your chances to win a potentially horrific war, could you honestly say that you wouldn't do it?

 

They don't develop creations for trivial and decadent purposes because, first of all, they have already filled most of their needs for chores and the like with the creation of serviles, and second of all, the creation of a new life form is a complex and drawn out process. It may take years to find the correct way to Shape something. Shaping should only be reserved for necessary things, like food and war. War may not be necessary, but when it rolls around, you would want creations dying rather than humans.

 

The Shapers aren't perfect. No-one is. The Rebels are brutal, the Awakened are foolishly optimistic, the Takers are consumed with blood-rage, the Trakovites are scared, and the Shapers are strict. But out of all those, strict seems the least evil. The Shapers had it coming to them, agreed. Their society could only last so long. But with any luck, the Rebellion will teach them something. And, failing at that, it may force them to change out of sheer necessity.

 

Th Native Americans were enslaved because, well, it was convenient to do so. Other than their lack of immunities to disease, they were pretty much ideal slaves. It was horrible and wrong, yes. The actions of the colonists and, later, the United States were unjustified and cruel. But some of the later atrocities (Trail of Tears, Indian Removal Act) was due to the actions of President Jackson and, partially, a mostly oligarchic and plantation owning Congress.

 

As for Cuba, Nalyd isn't really knowledgable in that particular area of the world. Someone else will have to pick up there.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

So, where have all the humans gone? Anyone care to create some sort of population chart?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nalyd:

 

Quote:

Why is it so horribly impossible that Shaping spread peacefully?

Quote:

If you had an easy enough alternative that involved no loss of human life and little human effort, while simultaneously greatly increasing your chances to win a potentially horrific war, could you honestly say that you wouldn't do it?

I think you just answered your own question: because it's easier and more successful than diplomacy.

 

Also, Khyryk on earlier civilizations:

 

Quote:

There used to be all sorts of tribes and peoples on Terrestia. The Shapers absorbed or defeated them long before you or I was born.

Dikiyoba.

[Drayk Armitage]

Quote:

Originally written by Spokesman of the Dead:
Why is it so horribly impossible that Shaping spread peacefully?

Because, in the Spirit City in G1, you learn quite specifically how shaping spread, and it wasn't peaceful at all. The first shapers used shaping "as a weapon" and tried to build up an empire with it.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Spokesman of the Dead:
And don't underestimate Nalyd.

That would be quite impossible.

[Micawber]

Thuryl 1

Nalyd 0

 

This brings to mind a scene from a tv show:

 

"Don't underestimate him, he's not as stupid as he seems."

 

"My dear, no one could be as stupid as he seems."

[Retlaw May]

So why is it that people always ignore the many strong points and jump on the one weak and less significant point? I notice that this almost always happens when those same people have no strong points of their own . It is a tell-tale sign of weakness. The greatest bullies are those who are weak.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
So why is it that people always ignore the many strong points and jump on the one weak and less significant point? I notice that this almost always happens when those same people have no strong points of their own . It is a tell-tale sign of weakness. The greatest bullies are those who are weak.

Which particular point in this debate are you discussing? Was it the part about Shapers being human napalm or the part about them destroying and enslaving the planet? I get easily confused in my dotage.

[Lord Safey]

The civilations that predate the shapers aren't neccarly innocent. The Romans conquered the Celtics who drove off the orginal inhabitants. It rarelys as simple as good guys and bad guys. Think of it this way, in this case everyone is bad and all that matters is that you destroy your enemy before he destroys you. Eventually the shapers assimialted those peoples in their empire which is the key to any succeful empire. If the people hold on to their own nationalites they will continue to rebel. Make them feellike their apart of your nation/state/empire and they will not rebel because they will see no need too.

[Dikiyoba]

But if the Shapers are just as evil as the other cultures, why are they in the right to take over? They certainly didn't need two entire continents, not when the other cultures were already established and kept things peaceful and under control. At least, until the Shapers came, started an unnecessary war, let loose a bunch of rogues, and killed a lot of innocent people.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Retlaw May]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyobot:
But if the Shapers are just as evil as the other cultures, why are they in the right to take over? They certainly didn't need two entire continents, not when the other cultures were already established and kept things peaceful and under control. At least, until the Shapers came, started an unnecessary war, let loose a bunch of rogues, and killed a lot of innocent people.

Dikiyoba.

Reminds me of another situation.... Can anyone else guess what the more modern version of this would be?

[Sudanna]

Who ways that Shaping spread through violence and death? The only evidence we have that anything like this ever happened is on Sucia. And that's where Shaping was supposedly discovered, so there's bound to be instability there. After Sucia burned itself out, who's to say Shaping spread on it's own? What's wrong with "The Shapers set up schools. People learned Shaping. Rebels messed it up."

 

And Shaping costs less effort than war with humans. Diplomacy is still far superior, and Shaping is only used to minimize the casualties on the side using Shaping. If additional human casualties could be avoided, why should the Shapers spend time and essence with Shaping when talking works fine? If you'll notice, the Rebels never tried anything resembling diplomacy. They simply waited in the quiet and mostly inhospitable mountains quietly, Shaping haphazardly all the while, and threw it at the Shapers when they were discovered or thought they had a chance.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Just when I thought your world view was as myopic as possible, you stun again. Why not just accept what Jeff actually wrote into the game descriptions, rather than invent highly unlikely scenarios that violate so-called human nature?

[Retlaw May]

I wonder if Salmon actually reads posts or if he does, if he comprehends them.

[Sudanna]

What evidence is there that there was violence due to the spread of Shaping? The Shaper Empire has apparently been around a very long time, if the origin of Shaping isn't universally known. There's no evidence either way, as to whether Shaping spread violently or peacefully. All we have is Sucia and human nature. Human nature differs greatly, and it depends on who had Shaping to begin with. Was it some bloodthirsty tyrant, like ET, a scientist-analog(Learning for learning's sake), or a pro-Shaping Trakovite(Good of the world, helping average people).

 

Also, who's to say that the Shapers started the war on Sucia(The only one we have direct evidence of)? There were probably religions back then, with origins of life etc., and they might have seen the ability to create life as evil, or there might have been jealous or fearful neighbors.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Salmon:

 

Quote:

Why not just accept what Jeff actually wrote into the game descriptions

How about a quote or two?

 

Originally by Nalyd:

 

Quote:

Also, who's to say that the Shapers started the war on Sucia(The only one we have direct evidence of)?

Heustess says: "They [the Shapers] used this power to change those who opposed them... My people were fought by them, and their war mages changed our soldiers... And I led the fight back."

 

The phrases in italics would be very strange phrases to use if Heustess's people had started the war.

 

Quote:

What evidence is there that there was violence due to the spread of Shaping?

Dikiyoba already quoted a bit from Khyryk in this thread. "The Shapers absorbed or defeated them." So there was some peaceful assimilation. And there were some wars.

[Sudanna]

Well, if Heusstess had "led the fight against them", then he would hardly be willing to put them as the aggressors, then would he? History is written by egos and perceptions.

[Dikiyoba]

But if (as he does) believe that the ancient Shapers are truly evil, he has no reason to misrepresent his case. He has no qualms about attacking the PC for being a Shaper, after all.

 

And the quote is not "led the fight against them". It's "led the fight back". There is a difference. The first implies that his culture started it. The second implies that the ancient Shapers did. The second quote is what is in the game.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Randomizer]

There is a lot made of Shaper arrogance. That they know better than anyone else what is "good" for everyone. While some of this is the result of better education and knowledge of what can be done with shaping, there is just a general feeling I got the power so obey me.

 

Faced with an enemy that can seemingly create an army of powerful monsters from thin air, I'm not surprised that some people capitulated rather than fight. Sucia Island was the start before Shapers gained control and figured out a systematic way to shape creations. They've got better over several hundred years, but they still can't make new things without a lot of trial and error.

[Morior]

Apropos of nothing, (always wanted to use that phrase):

 

Where does it say that shaping was created on Sucia Island? I've played through all of G1, and I didn't notice anything about shaping starting on Sucia. It just reached the height of its art on Sucia.

 

Thanks.

[Drayk Armitage]

Quote:

Originally written by Morior:
Apropos of nothing, (always wanted to use that phrase):

Where does it say that shaping was created on Sucia Island? I've played through all of G1, and I didn't notice anything about shaping starting on Sucia. It just reached the height of its art on Sucia.

Thanks.

Then you didn't play through quite all of G1. Or if you did, you forgot what you learned in the Spirit City.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyobot:
Originally by Salmon:

Quote:

Why not just accept what Jeff actually wrote into the game descriptions

How about a quote or two?

I am having my crack team of researchers come up with some power point slides that will illustrate whichever point I was talking about. With any luck, I'll have a fairly robust quote in the next 24 hours.

Edited for language.

[Retlaw May]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyobot:
But if (as he does) believe that the ancient Shapers are truly evil, he has no reason to misrepresent his case. He has no qualms about attacking the PC for being a Shaper, after all.

And the quote is not "led the fight against them". It's "led the fight back". There is a difference. The first implies that his culture started it. The second implies that the ancient Shapers did. The second quote is what is in the game.

Dikiyoba.

Of course you know nothing of that ancient culture. Just because someone thinks they have moral superiority doesn't mean they won't state things "dipomatically". Also, if this people's religion abhored what the original Shapers were doing, they could have felt that them attacking was a "fight back" against the blasphemy, or a "fight back" because we warned them.

I'm not saying that the Shapers didn't start the fight, I'm just saying that you are making assumptions based off of shaky inferences and that you shouldn't use them in a "manner-of-fact" way.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Retlaw May:

 

Quote:

I'm just saying that you are making assumptions based off of shaky inferences and that you shouldn't use them in a "manner-of-fact" way.

No, I don't know much about the ancient societies. No one does. Good information does not exist, so there is only scant evidence and shaky inferences to go off of. But since that's the only thing I have to understand and debate the northwestern corner of Sucia Island with, it's what I will use. At least I have something tangible to draw conclusions from.

 

Are my biases altering how I see the evidence? Yes, but I have seen no evidence to contradict my view that the Shapers spread partially by war and violence, starting from their earliest days. But by all means, provide some actual evidence that the Shapers spread peacefully whenever they could. I am okay with being proved wrong.

 

Anyway, after all that, Dikiyoba found another quote. This comes from the ghost in the temple of the Spirit City: "We tried to form an empire against the savages around us, starting here. But the random way we attacked changed things. Created horrible creatures, stronger than what we attacked. Made diseases."

[Morior]

Ah. That explains it. I haven't played through all of the Spirit City. Rather, I ran through on my way to a certain Shaper. Apparently, I missed out. Now going to play through that part again.

[Aequitas]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:

Quote:

Originally written by Spokesman of the Dead:
And don't underestimate Nalyd.

That would be quite impossible.

Dang. You beat me to it.

[Suspicious Vlish]

What's going on in this thread is pretty much what I have be re-iterating for goodness knows how long.

 

Some lackey: "The Shapers bring peace. They are a peaceful people!"

 

My response: "Um, they have a nasty habit of establishing 'peace' and stability with war and excessive violence."

[Lord Safey]

not all the cultures where destroyed. Some where asrorbed(possibly by conquering, possibly diplomacy). EDIT Khyryk in G4 when he is in his cave tells you that the tribes where either asorbed or destroyed. Too me that implies that at least an minium amount of diplomacy was involed. Second you just had your butts kicked off your homeland and are foced to move. Shapeing or no Shapeing are you going to be ready to imeditanly starting conquering everyone in site. No the shapers did not solely rely on brute force. Some diplomacy had to be involved.

[Retlaw May]

Anyway, how can you expect expansion without any violence? How many of of the empires/nations/states have been established in the history of the world with no violence? You are now looking to the past to make the Shapers evil? Well look to your own country's past and look how many of thousands/millions of gallons of blood have been spilled. All of your nations are bathing in blood.

 

P.S. I remember that some people here are Australian, but even though I don't know too much about that history I know enough to know it is not innocent. I have read/heard enough accounts of the abuse of Australian natives (even some modern!) to know that its hands aren't clean; so don't give me a something about how that is America's evil demons.

[Retlaw May]

Sorry for two posts, but this is a different responce and I also know how bad long posts are (which they seem to happen quite often in the last week).

 

Brainwashed rebel: The Rebellion is just! We only want what is best for all intellegent creatures!

 

Small child: Then why did you destroy my farm and family with your scary monsters? And why is that Drakon bathing in the blood of innocents?

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
Anyway, how can you expect expansion without any violence? How many of of the empires/nations/states have been established in the history of the world with no violence? You are now looking to the past to make the Shapers evil? Well look to your own country's past and look how many of thousands/millions of gallons of blood have been spilled. All of your nations are bathing in blood.

193 wrongs don't make a right.

[Lord Safey]

we already have a thread for a rebel/shaper discussion. Lets leave it their.

 

I'm still convinceed that shapers would have needed to use some diplomacy at least. You got your butts kick out of your homeland. After fleeing from a powerful enemy like that how long it will take for you to get ready to conquer the know world?