The Ultimate Faction Survey Poll

[Nioca]

Yep. Yet another one. This time, though, it's a comprehensive survey, both of all factions and of the Shaper/Rebel dynamic, for each of the Geneforge games, and also as a whole.

 

Note that, for questions 1-7, try to answer that question within what you saw in the game, rather than your overall opinion.

[Dikiyoba]

Um, Nioca, you forgot a "Haven't played the game" option. Makes it hard for Dikiyoba to answer a few of the questions.

[Goldengirl]

The Takers aren't the Rebels. The Rebels are successors of the Takers and Awakened. Neither are the Obeyers equating to Shapers. You see, the Obeyers actually reformed the Shaper idea to something more palpable, intelligent serviles supporting the Shapers out of choice. Sure, it's still sickening, but it's an improvement.

 

At the beginning, G1 and G2, I was a staunch supporter of the Awakened. Unfortunately, both sides proved this to be mere idealism at the time, not unlike Trakovism during G4. Going into G3, I supported those that actually had a shot at liberating the Serviles, being the Rebels. Then, in our final installment so far, I fancy myself a Trako-Rebel. I still fight to try and liberate the Serviles and Humans, but I took a Trakovite ending first. Weaken both oppressors of the Proletariat, one by smashing the Shaper's resistance and the other by putting their greatest weapon at the mercy of the Servile Mechanics. Plus, being staunch Rebel up to that point, I even get to live.

[nikki.]

I started out supporting the Awakened - in fact I have not finished GF1 as an Obeyer. In GF2, it was Awakened or a Loyalist - I couldn't stand Zachary one bit. In GF3, I have played both, but prefer being a Rebel. Some with GF4. So I guess, overall, I sympathise with the Awakened most in the first two games, and the Rebels in the last two.

 

If we get the choice, I will be starting GF5 as a loyal Shaper, and then turn Rebel.

[Taliesin]

Well, in Geneforge 1 I technically supported the Obeyers, although that was just a part of ruthlessly exploiting all three factions. But the Awakened were my favorite, so I felt bad about killing them.

 

In G5, I'd love to play as an Awakened Servile. And a Loyalist Shaper, of course.

[Lepus timidus]

Takers all the way, baby!

 

When you think about it, the best ending is the Taker ending from GF1, because it manages to avoid all of the complications that occur in GF2-GF4.

[Xelgion]

(Or the fact that LT is a drakon) >

[Taliesin]

Quote:

Originally written by Xel'Raga:
(Or the fact that LT is a drakon) >

Truer words were never spoken, my friend.

I only hope this thread doesn't turn into another "What is better, Shapers or Rebels" debate. The UBB can only take so much...

Long live the Shapers.

[Xelgion]

Quote:

I only hope this thread doesn't turn into another "What is better, Shapers or Rebels" debate. The UBB can only take so much...
Long live the Shapers.

That is the most ironic post I have ever read, the exact same people, argue about the exact same thing, only this time, it is a stand-off between Nicoa and LT, last time, Nayld and I joined in the fun.

[Lepus timidus]

Quote:

Originally written by Xel'Raga:
(Or the fact that LT is a drakon) >

What the!? I don't 'like' Drakons any more than I 'like' humans.

Trajkov is perhaps my favourite character in the series, and anyone with a tiny bit of sense would support the Taker GF1 ending, because it means:

- A quick war against the Shapers (although the Sholai make use of spawners. *le gasp* Genocide! *gasp*).

- Creation emancipation (Trajkov keeps his word to the serviles).

- The throwing off of stifling Shaper rule, which most likely results in greater freedoms regarding Shaping and magic usage.

- No Drakons, no Unbound, no Lilita, no Hoge, no Barzhal.

- A happy and ethical ending for the PC.

[The Mystic]

Nioca - You forgot to add a "None of the above" option for those of us who play middle-of-the-road, or kill everything that moves, etc.

[Nioca]

That was deliberate. I wanted to know which side you supported most, and a none-of-the-above option would have granted skewed data. This poll doesn't ask which side you play the most, but which faction you agree with the most.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Once again, the numbers show the inherent cowardice of Spiderweb members. There is always a large number of people who support the Awakened, yet, when the Awakened are taken out of the equation, many turn to the Shapers. This shows that most people support creation rights, but when it comes down to actually fighting for what you believe in, they are afraid to go the extra mile, and instead choose to flee back to the conservative side rather than take a chance with the Rebellion.

 

Me? I choose neither. I choose myself. I choose the Barzites (or Tullegolites). I can't wait for a faction like theirs to return in Geneforge 5. It is the birthright of humanity to use shaping to its full extent. Restrictions are foolish, especially in this time of total war. I will not bow before creations either. I would sooner turn to the Shapers before serving soulless drakon scum.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Once again, the numbers show the inherent cowardice of Spiderweb members. There is always a large number of people who support the Awakened, yet, when the Awakened are taken out of the equation, many turn to the Shapers. This shows that most people support creation rights, but when it comes down to actually fighting for what you believe in, they are afraid to go the extra mile, and instead choose to flee back to the conservative side rather than take a chance with the Rebellion.

Me? I choose neither. I choose myself. I choose the Barzites (or Tullegolites). I can't wait for a faction like theirs to return in Geneforge 5. It is the birthright of humanity to use shaping to its full extent. Restrictions are foolish, especially in this time of total war. I will not bow before creations either. I would sooner turn to the Shapers before serving soulless drakon scum.

And which sides did you choose, grasshopper?

I'm proud to say that I'm consistent with my messages. Awakened fail, which seemed inevitable looking back, then turn to the next best thing ideologically, the Rebels. People are really so quick to go to the bad when viewing the Rebels, painting them with the same broadbrush as the Drakons.

For example, in Southforge Citadel, there is a creation care center where a wounded fyora, Torchlight the Wounded Fyora, and Greenfand are at. The keeper there even says that Torchlight is too weak to go on assaults. A similar scene is seen in the Illya Safehouse, where it says that "lifecrafters generally go to greater means than Shapers to heal there creations..."

And do the Shapers do these things? No. Do the Rebels torture their captives like the Shapers do? No, as evidenced by Miranda, who's only greivance was thirst. Do the Rebels brainwash their Serviles? No, unlike the Shapers. Do the Rebels publically display their defeated or misbehaving off on wooden poles and shackles? No, unlike the Shapers.

I've been keeping track of what people are saying about their reasons for supporting the Shapers/Rebellion are. From what I can see, the common loyalist citizen is brainwashed into supporting the Shapers in their crusade against rogues and terrorists, and just like the sheer stability of the Shapers. On the other side, the Rebels commonly see have simple to severe grievances with the Shapers, be it the treatment of the Creations, a famine they didn't cure, not helping their poor towns, etc.

Before any of you try pulling up the Unbound, realize this: the Rebels were desperate, with, as General Crowley put it in the Forsaken Camp, "Oh yes! The constant losses, of men, of territory, of supplies. Truly the hallmarks of success." And yet, hypocrisy abounds. When the Unbound are released, the Shapers reply in kind with their own monstrosities, on par with the Drakon's creations. And when the Shapers win, as most of you would have them do, the creations are condemned to much worse conditions, and everyone else gets the failure of Terrestia driven into their mind, putting a futility into any planned uprising.

I think I was going somewhere when I started this. But anyways, I support the Rebels over the Shapers, even though I take the Trakovite ending optimally.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Once again, the numbers show the inherent cowardice of Spiderweb members. There is always a large number of people who support the Awakened, yet, when the Awakened are taken out of the equation, many turn to the Shapers. This shows that most people support creation rights, but when it comes down to actually fighting for what you believe in, they are afraid to go the extra mile, and instead choose to flee back to the conservative side rather than take a chance with the Rebellion.

First off, don't call me a coward. I may be many things, but a coward isn't one of them.

Second, I'm not going to fight for a Rebellion that's simply going to become the exact same regime with a new overlord. If the Rebellion was going to actually change something (aside from world population), if I was in their position, I'd probably fight and die for it. But the Drakons are merely a new version of Shapers, and I'm not going to stick my neck out for monsters who are emulating, no strike that, becoming worse than the Shapers.

I'm all for the fighting and dying, but I'm not for being an accomplice of building a new, potentially tougher to overthrow Shaper regime. The Awakened have the right idea; fight for what you believe in, stick to your morals, and, if necessary, die with the honor of knowing you haven't become a monster yourself.

Goldenking: While I respect and agree with your ideas on the difference between the Human and Drakon sides of the Rebellion, it's effectively moot; the Human side has been all but wiped out, and the Drakon side is pretty much all that's left of the Rebellion. Without the Drakons, there's no Rebellion. Which is sad, since they decided to leave the rest of the Rebellion out to rot.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
Goldenking: While I respect and agree with your ideas on the difference between the Human and Drakon sides of the Rebellion, it's effectively moot; the Human side has been all but wiped out, and the Drakon side is pretty much all that's left of the Rebellion. Without the Drakons, there's no Rebellion. Which is sad, since they decided to leave the rest of the Rebellion out to rot.

Nuh-uh!

According to the Endgame text, the Rebel army moves to retake Illya when the Unbound are released without a hitch. The Rebel Army is Human, Servile, and a few Drayks, and even the game says the Drakons had withdrawn as they were, "Maddened by their losses..." I see no reason why the Rebel Line of Demarcation wouldn't hold true still.

Besides, even if the Drakons did take over completely, they'd be easy to overthrow.

[Enraged Slith]

In GF1 I felt sad for the Obeyers and felt that the Awakened were too ideal. The Takers were the only realistic group in the bunch so I feel for them. Anger is a powerful emotion and naturally leads to revenge. I can't imagine feeling any other way.

 

As for the rest of the series: the Shapers.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Kinggolden:

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
Goldenking: While I respect and agree with your ideas on the difference between the Human and Drakon sides of the Rebellion, it's effectively moot; the Human side has been all but wiped out, and the Drakon side is pretty much all that's left of the Rebellion. Without the Drakons, there's no Rebellion. Which is sad, since they decided to leave the rest of the Rebellion out to rot.

According to the Endgame text, the Rebel army moves to retake Illya when the Unbound are released without a hitch.

Yeah. When the Unbound are unleashed. Thing is, the Unbound wouldn't exist without the Drakons, and without the Unbound, the Human rebel army would still have been trapped. It was made very clear that the Rebellion in the south was about to end in a particularly bloody way.

Quote:

The Rebel Army is Human, Servile, and a few Drayks, and even the game says the Drakons had withdrawn as they were, "Maddened by their losses..." I see no reason why the Rebel Line of Demarcation wouldn't hold true still.

So, in short, the Humans, Serviles, and Drayks continued taking losses while the Drakons sat back, pouted, and let people die for them. Perhaps I wouldn't think so little of them if they actually fought to the bitter end. Instead, they retire to their citadel, throw away the other part of the resistance, and emulate the Shapers.

Quote:

Besides, even if the Drakons did take over completely, they'd be easy to overthrow.

Ha! Even if such a coup was attempted before the Drakons became established, I doubt it'd be any easier than overthrowing the Shapers. Unlike the Shapers, the Drakons have a physical advantage and very little self-control. If anything, it'd be harder to do, simply because the oppressors are that much tougher to kill, and possess even more firepower than their predecessors.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Nioca:
Yeah. When the Unbound are unleashed. Thing is, the Unbound wouldn't exist without the Drakons, and without the Unbound, the Human rebel army would still have been trapped. It was made very clear that the Rebellion in the south was about to end in a particularly bloody way.

Thing is, the Rebellion wouldn't exist without the Drakons, the Drakons wouldn't exist without Barzahl, Barzahl wouldn't go crazy without Sucia, Sucia wouldn't be a problem without the Geneforge, and the Geneforge wouldn't have existed if it weren't for Shaping. Now, you were saying?

Quote:

Nioca:So, in short, the Humans, Serviles, and Drayks continued taking losses while the Drakons sat back, pouted, and let people die for them. Perhaps I wouldn't think so little of them if they actually fought to the bitter end. Instead, they retire to their citadel, throw away the other part of the resistance, and emulate the Shapers.

No. In short, with the Shaper Army fighting the Unbound, the Rebel Army would be free to establish a Free Land in Illya, the Forsaken Lands, the Fens of Aziraph, and the Valley of Drypeak.

Quote:

Nioca:Ha! Even if such a coup was attempted before the Drakons became established, I doubt it'd be any easier than overthrowing the Shapers. Unlike the Shapers, the Drakons have a physical advantage and very little self-control. If anything, it'd be harder to do, simply because the oppressors are that much tougher to kill, and possess even more firepower than their predecessors.

Unlike the Shapers, the Drakons aren't more or less equally spread out. They're concentrated in several fortresses. And the Drakons have managed to get several powerful groups angry at them: the Gazers/Eyebeasts, the Drayks, the Lifecrafters, the Rebel Army, and the Shapers. I'm sure the Shapers wouldn't mind helping in the destruction of their greatest foe, after all*. The Gazers/Eyebeasts wouldn't mind a plot of land to call their own, and the Rebels wouldn't mind getting rid of them.

Here's how I see it happening:

Drakons just made the next batch of Unbound. Northforge is practically abandoned, and the Cryodrayks and Serviles take this time to seize the fortress, and the Geneforge. Khima-Uss falls easily. Poison the food going into Quessa-Uss, and any other major Drakon fortresses. Then, while the major Drakon leaders are out taking the Unbound west, catch them while they're still exhausted. Bloody? Definitely. Successful? Almost certainly. Any remaining pockets of resistance can be handled.

I remember the days when the worst Rebel tactic was irresponsible Spawner plantment. Why they stopped using them for all but fortresses, I'll never know. Unless G5 tells us.

*This is actually what I think G5'll be like. Western Terrestia, Shaper infiltrators, rebellion against Drakons, Drakons, and whatever the other two factions'll be.

[Lord Safey]

Quote:

Originally written by Kinggolden:

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
Goldenking: While I respect and agree with your ideas on the difference between the Human and Drakon sides of the Rebellion, it's effectively moot; the Human side has been all but wiped out, and the Drakon side is pretty much all that's left of the Rebellion. Without the Drakons, there's no Rebellion. Which is sad, since they decided to leave the rest of the Rebellion out to rot.

Nuh-uh!

According to the Endgame text, the Rebel army moves to retake Illya when the Unbound are released without a hitch. The Rebel Army is Human, Servile, and a few Drayks, and even the game says the Drakons had withdrawn as they were, "Maddened by their losses..." I see no reason why the Rebel Line of Demarcation wouldn't hold true still.

Besides, even if the Drakons did take over completely, they'd be easy to overthrow.

It only takes one man to plant a flag with the unbound attacking the shapers it wouldn't take much of an army to retake Illya. According to in game text the human rebels had been taking heavy causalities and losses in resources for years, possibly a decade. You don't over come those kinda of losses in a day. Maybe the unbound will allow them recoup those losses in time but at the moment the human rebellion is little more then show.

[Lepus timidus]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
[QB]Once again, the numbers show the inherent cowardice of Spiderweb members. There is always a large number of people who support the Awakened, yet, when the Awakened are taken out of the equation, many turn to the Shapers. This shows that most people support creation rights, but when it comes down to actually fighting for what you believe in, they are afraid to go the extra mile, and instead choose to flee back to the conservative side rather than take a chance with the Rebellion.

Yep. A lot of these 'Rebel' sympathizers like Diki reminds me of those animal rights sympathizers. Intellectual mothertruckers sitting in front of their fireplace, swilling their red wine and pondering "Hmm, perhaps Bessie the Cow can feel pain and some measure of emotion. Perhaps it is unethical to turn her into dog mince?", but when they see terrorist actions by the Animal Liberation Front on their flat screen TV, recoil and empathatically protest "Oh hell no, we weren't condoning such brutish behaviour." where behaviour = anything that involves rectifying an unjust situation with more than just a limp wristed, half-hearted verbal commentary.

[nikki.]

First of all, I agree with Slithy. Even if I'm playing the most hard-lined Taker, I'll always tell the Obeyer Librarian that she did well to collect the Shaper documents. That one encounter is probably one of the saddest in the series.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Yep. A lot of these 'Rebel' sympathizers like Diki reminds me of those animal rights sympathizers. Intellectual mothertruckers sitting in front of their fireplace, swilling their red wine and pondering "Hmm, perhaps Bessie the Cow can feel pain and some measure of emotion. Perhaps it is unethical to turn her into dog mince?", but when they see terrorist actions by the Animal Liberation Front on their flat screen TV, recoil and empathatically protest "Oh hell no, we weren't condoning such brutish behaviour." where behaviour = anything that involves rectifying an unjust situation with more than just a limp wristed, half-hearted verbal commentary.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. As I understand it, you're saying that "Rebels" think turning animals into food is a bad thing, but aren't prepared to kill people in order to let animals live. This is wrong on so many levels. Simply put, if somebody is ethically aware enough, or just aware of other life, to consider that meat may be murder, they aren't likely to support terrorist actions, are they? I mean, sure, if it's not talking then it's the bomb that'll settle our differences, but lets start with the talking, huh?

 

On the other hand, I support "terrorist" actions taken by Animal Rights Groups, so long as no people aren't hurt. Firebombing animal testing centres? Sure, so long as nothing is going to die as a result of it.

 

Back to GF, I support the rebels simply because I have issues with a being having complete and utter control over another, intelligent being. Serviles show, time after time, that they are capable of not only surviving and existing, but of living without Shaper control. Why not let them? Would you, if you ever have them, enlist your children into servitude? Tell them from birth that since you created them, they owe you absolute feality?

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Kinggolden:

Quote:

Nioca:
Ha! Even if such a coup was attempted before the Drakons became established, I doubt it'd be any easier than overthrowing the Shapers. Unlike the Shapers, the Drakons have a physical advantage and very little self-control. If anything, it'd be harder to do, simply because the oppressors are that much tougher to kill, and possess even more firepower than their predecessors.

Unlike the Shapers, the Drakons aren't more or less equally spread out. They're concentrated in several fortresses. And the Drakons have managed to get several powerful groups angry at them: the Gazers/Eyebeasts, the Drayks, the Lifecrafters, the Rebel Army, and the Shapers. I'm sure the Shapers wouldn't mind helping in the destruction of their greatest foe, after all*. The Gazers/Eyebeasts wouldn't mind a plot of land to call their own, and the Rebels wouldn't mind getting rid of them.

You're forgetting that, by the time that comes around, the Drakons are clearly strong enough that they're combined power is second only to Shapers. When the Shapers topple, the Drakons take the place of the strongest super-power by a lot. In the GF4 Rebel and Shaper endings, it made it clear that there are far more Drakons in the Northforge area than we are initially made aware of. With both Geneforges down for the count, the supply of Lifecrafters is effectively cut down. The Gazers/Eyebeasts are exceedingly rare, and the Rebel army is already on the brink of destruction. The only force left that might oppose them with any success is the Drayks, but even they are outmatched, especially when the unbound come into the picture. With the Unbound at their side, the Drakons are effectively unstoppable. And when they take control, that power will only be solidified even more.

[Zeviz]

I try to maintain the most moral of least destructive courses of action in these games. This means supporting Awakened when given the option, but going back to Shapers when the option isn't there. For me, Awakened present the best balance, because they are willing to use most available methods to protect their territory, but do not try to wipe out anybody.

 

If the limited war (as waged by Awakened) isn't an option, Shapers present the "lesser of two evils" alternative. Their methods are nearly as ruthless as the Rebels', but their goal is to contain and limit the destructive power of shaping, while the Rebels' goal is to gain unlimited personal power by any means necessary. Rebellion took far more from Takers than from Awakened, while Shapers took more from Obeyers than from Barzites.

 

We could argue endlessly about technicalities of who started what, but in the end of the day both Rebels and Shapers turn out to be equally willing to kill, torture, and enslave to achieve their goals. And regardless of whose goal looks better in propaganda posters, in practice an average Drakon is more selfish, arrogant, and ruthless than an average Shaper lord.

 

As for "supporting the Human Rebellion", that's like saying that you "support moderate Shapers". Just like Shaper supporters in these debates are expected to accept the existence of a hard-line Shaper council, Rebel supporters have to accept the fact that Drakons' power is so much greater than that of the rest of Rebels that "Human Rebellion" is about as independent a force as "moderate Shapers". (And "reform from within" seems far less likely to happen in society ruled by Drakons than in Shaper society, which already indicated willingness to change. Barring gladiatorial combat is one example of reform that happened before these games even start.)

 

I din't even consider Trajkovites in this discussion, because their position is completely unviable. They take the Shaper view of dangerous power ("let's ban it and hope for the best"), but don't leave themselves with enough power to destroy those who abuse Shaping. So at best Trajkovites would grow into new Shapers (a police force that prevents the rest of population from using Shaping powers). And at worst they would let the world plunge into chaos again, as power-hungry madmen fight each other unopposed (because nobody else is powerful enough to oppose them).

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Huh. Why do most geneforge polls turn into debates of this caliber?

[The Ratt]

I was wondering the same thing, as well as "I don't want to read all that..."

[Callie]

The factions in the game present some definitive points in reference to the storyline. Though it's completely fictional, some will defend one faction in the same way some defend presidential candidates.

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:
Huh. Why do most geneforge polls turn into debates of this caliber?

Godwin's law.

Discussions of Geneforge morality reflect people's views of real politics, so people argue as passinately as they would in any other debate about a hypothetical moral dilemma. And then somebody drags in inevitable nazi comparisons and things deteriorate from there.

I could have posted in the gun control debate instead, but that would be just as pointless as posting here, but more frustrating due to immediate real life implications.

[Xelgion]

Nothing else worth debating in GF, besides, it keeps the poll active and lets more peeps use it, and it is always amusing to watch LT "post", or in other words, flame.

 

Quote:

Then someone brings in the inevitable Nazi references

Ack!! Don't remind me!

[Dikiyoba]

All right, enough with the LT jabs. They get old real fast.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Quote:

Originally written by Xel'Raga:
and it is always amusing to watch LT "post", or in other words, flame.

That, right there, is a flame. Nicely done. If you don't like what he says, don't read it.

[Lepus timidus]

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
All right, enough with the LT jabs. They get old real fast.

So does LT's jabs. Yet they're still around, so I don't see why the former shouldn't be either.

Speaking of which, the ignore list only works for PMs. Unfortunately.

[Lepus timidus]

Doh, that does suck.

 

Hey, for once, we're in complete agreement!

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
Yet they're still around, so I don't see why the former shouldn't be either.

Hmm.

Quote:

A paraphrase of Lepus:
I feel this way about things and people, and I know they aren't popular opinions, but there they are none the less.

Quote:

A paraphrase of Forum Insulates:
Oh noes! Stop saying those things! You can't say them here! You are a flamer! You should be banned! Leave, troll, leave!

Quote:

A paraphrase of Lepus:
We have things in common, but I still have my own opinions

Quote:

A paraphrase of Forum Insulates:
Ur a big bully and I don't like you.

So yeah, that's my recap. And the Faction Survey poll seems like the best place for it.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Quote:

A paraphrase of Lepus:
I feel this way about things and people, and I know they aren't popular opinions, but there they are none the less.

Quote:

A paraphrase of Forum Insulates:
Oh noes! Stop saying those things! You can't say them here! You are a flamer! You should be banned! Leave, troll, leave!

Quote:

A paraphrase of Lepus:
We have things in common, but I still have my own opinions

Quote:

A paraphrase of Forum Insulates:
Ur a big bully and I don't like you.

So yeah, that's my recap.

Well, you portray him well as the innocent little angel. Here's a recap based a little more in reality.

Quote:

A paraphrase of Lepus:
I want to make prejudiced remarks and comments against things and people, and I know it flies in the face of the CoC and this being a family forum, but I'll state them nonetheless. Oh, and I'll insult several members in the process, and add a few other CoC violations.

Quote:

A paraphrase of community members, older and newer:
What's wrong with you? You're a racist! Hate speech is against the CoC! (So on, so forth)

Quote:

A paraphrase of Lepus:
I'm innocent! When is stating the truth a crime around here? [insert a couple more prejudicial comments] Shame on you, communist thugs!

Quote:

A paraphrase of community members, older and newer:
I don't like you. You're trolling, flaming, and should be banned.

Neither side in this is innocent, but whatever crap is getting flung LT's way is being brought on by none other than himself. Have several members of the community, even myself, perhaps gone a bit too far in voicing their distaste of LT and his comments? Yes. Did LT take the first step across that line of decency, resulting in this mess to begin with? And did he then continue making prejudicial comments, insulting other members and regularly flaunting his capability to violate the CoC as well? Also yes.

Even if those words aren't sincere, and this is just trolling, they still carry the same exact impact, and I, personally, believe they should be dealt with as such. And if those really are his opinions, he should take them elsewhere, because this isn't the place for them.

[Lepus timidus]

Nioca:

 

Quote:

Neither side in this is innocent, but whatever crap is getting flung LT's way is being brought on by none other than himself. Have several members of the community, even myself, perhaps gone a bit too far in voicing their distaste of LT and his comments? Yes. Did LT take the first step across that line of decency, resulting in this mess to begin with? And did he then continue making prejudicial comments, insulting other members and regularly flaunting his capability to violate the CoC as well? Also yes.

 

Even if those words aren't sincere, and this is just trolling, they still carry the same exact impact, and I, personally, believe they should be dealt with as such. And if those really are his opinions, he should take them elsewhere, because this isn't the place for them.

Translated: "Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo, waa waa waa!"

[Nioca]

(I never thought I'd say this, but I suppose there's a first time for everything...) Thank you, Lepus.

 

That sort of reply is exactly what was needed to further demonstrate my point.

 

Ya know, if I didn't know better, I'd say that we might not even be looking at the actual LT, but someone who's taking his account for a joyride.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
Ya know, if I didn't know better, I'd say that we might not even be looking at the actual LT, but someone who's taking his account for a joyride.

Praytell. What do you know that I don't, which makes that assertion false?

[Nioca]

Well, except for a couple incidents like the one just above, he's never really broken with his previous character. In fact, while this new turn in his 'personality' (assuming it isn't trolling) is surprising, it doesn't conflict with what he's already shown via the Geneforge debates. He's keeping to his mannerisms, right down to the way he nitpicks on insignificant details to find a technicality or asserts his arguments. The only change of note, really, is that he's gotten more aggressive. But then again, so have a lot of people recently.

 

Upon further thought, I will say that there was a marked change between 'Shapers of Rebels' debate and the one that preceded it. Namely, in the later one, he seemed to be a bit more fanatical (also, he didn't strike me as the type to troll). So I suppose that, between those two debates, it's entirely possible that someone else started using the account. I highly doubt it, though.

 

Here's hoping, though, that this mess ends soon. One way or another.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Western society has a long and successful history of penning unpopular thoughts using a pen name.

[nikki.]

Quote:

Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:
Western society has a long and successful history of penning unpopular thoughts using a pen name.

Dude, I knew you were a mutli!!

[Aoslare]

I think Salmon prefers the term 'poly'

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Don't make me cut the baby in half. Or was it a cow? I forget. It's been years, you know.

[Bubb9]

I stay neutral/in support of shapers atleast in 1 and 2.