Lepus timidus

Nioca: Quote: Neither side in this is innocent, but whatever crap is getting flung LT's way is being brought on by none other than himself. Have several members of the community, even myself, perhaps gone a bit too far in voicing their distaste of LT and his comments? Yes. Did LT take the first step across that line of decency, resulting in this mess to begin with? And did he then continue making prejudicial comments, insulting other members and regularly flaunting his capability to violate the CoC as well? Also yes. Even if those words aren't sincere, and this is just trolling, they still carry the same exact impact, and I, personally, believe they should be dealt with as such. And if those really are his opinions, he should take them elsewhere, because this isn't the place for them. Translated: "Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo, waa waa waa!"

Doh, that does suck. Hey, for once, we're in complete agreement!

IIRC, Medieval and Colonial Era Western nations either used to give you a good flogging or execution if you lost your musket. I wonder what they would do to you if you lost their equivalent of the Demonslayer?

If I'm trolling, why don't you just ignore me, you dumb chits?

GF1, Trajkov ending. I must say, the end game artwork in GF1 is the most refined in the GF series. Trajkov ending, pg 1 , Trajkov ending, pg 2 , Trajkov ending, pg 3 , Trajkov ending, pg 4 , Trajkov ending, pg 5 , Trajkov ending, pg 6 , Trajkov ending, pg 7

Geneforge 3, Rebel Ending: Rebel Pg 1 Rebel Pg 2 Rebel Pg 3 Rebel Pg 4 Rebel Pg 5 Rebel Pg 6 Rebel Pg 7 Rebel Pg 8 Rebel Pg 9 Rebel Pg 10 Rebel Pg 11 Rebel Pg 12 Rebel Pg 13 Rebel Pg 14 Rebel Pg 15 Rebel Pg 16

Nioca: Quote: As for me, I'm careful not to push my luck with the Administration, especially after having been warned by them. I never thought you were capable of producing an insult that was warning worthy.

I don't think so. I'm very careful not to repeat the same assertions ad nauseum, especially when they have been soundly refuted.

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: [QB] Are you obtuse?

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: [QB]Once again, the numbers show the inherent cowardice of Spiderweb members. There is always a large number of people who support the Awakened, yet, when the Awakened are taken out of the equation, many turn to the Shapers. This shows that most people support creation rights, but when it comes down to actually fighting for what you believe in, they are afraid to go the extra mile, and instead choose to flee back to the conservative side rather than take a chance with the Rebellion. Yep. A lot of these 'Rebel' sympathizers like Diki reminds me of those animal rights sympathizers. Intellectual mothertruckers sitting in front of their fireplace, swilling their red wine and pondering "Hmm, perhaps Bessie the Cow can feel pain and some measure of emotion. Perhaps it is unethical to turn her into dog mince?", but when they see terrorist actions by the Animal Liberation Front on their flat screen TV, recoil and empathatically protest "Oh hell no, we weren't condoning such brutish behaviour." where behaviour = anything that involves rectifying an unjust situation with more than just a limp wristed, half-hearted verbal commentary.

Nioca: Quote: Read as: I'm never going to admit that I might possibly be wrong, and thus will steer the debate away from those dangerous waters. Read as: I'm rather busy atm, so I wish to prioritise what we discuss. Quote: Fine, but that's still no justification for genocide. The Rebels didn't even grant the chance for Shapers to surrender. In the GF3 Rebel Ending (and the Taker ending), your PC is sent as a diplomat to the Shapers to tell them of the invasion. Naturally, the Shaper Council in Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender. Quote: Whether or not they would have is moot, No, it's not moot. Shapers have been conditioned not to 'bow' to their Creations, hence there was no point of offering the Shapers a chance to surrender PRIOR to the invasion, because: 1. It would have been laughed at (witness GF2 Taker/Awakened ending). 2. The Rebels would have lost the element of surprise, which apart from the Geneforge, was the only advantage they have over the Shapers. 3. The diplomats would almost certainly have been killed (witness rebel endings to GF 1, GF 2, GF 3) But I do agree that once the invasion has been launched and the Rebels have some leverage, Shapers should be offered a chance to surrender and recant their anti-Creation ideology. And they were. None of them took it. Quote: all the more so because the global mindset of the sect does not represent the individual; I'm going to disagree with you, here. An individual wouldn't be a member of the Shaper sect unless they believed in the inferiority of their Creations, and their right to snuff out independent Creation life. In fact, having such an attitude is a prequisite for being allowed to progress in their sect. You might as well argue that being a fullly member of the KKK does not necessarily mean that you are racist (I thought I'd give you a break from the Nazi analogies ). Quote: the fact that they killed them simply because they're Shapers is genocide. No, it's called a pre-emptive strike. If the KKK declare a race war, the racial minorities will probably be targeting anyone wearing a white hood and chanting white supremacy slogans. I'd hardly call that genocide. In fact, I'd call it common sense. The problem is that individuals such as yourself and Diki think that the Shapers can be reasoned with by independent creations, when it's shown time and time again that Shapers will do nothing of the sort (unless it's a turncoat rebel). Just off the top of my head: 1. In the GF 1 loyalist ending, the Awakened are exterminated by the Shapers. 2. In the GF 2 loyalist ending, Medab is raised to the ground and the inhabitants enslaved. The Drakons in Zhass-Uss are destroyed. 3. In the GF 2 Awakened ending, the Awakened adopt your wet dream resistance, where they fight purely in self defense against waves of Shapers. The Shapers never let up, nor are they willing to acknowledge the existence of independent serviles and Drakons. 4. In the GF 3 Rebel ending, the Shapers make it clear that they will never surrender to their Creations. 5. In GF 4, Alwan makes it quite clear that he wishes to exterminate all Drayk life. This is despite the fact that Alwan is possibly one of the most progressive Shapers in the game. How on earth could a Drayk/Drakon negotiate with such a man? But by all means Nioca, tell me how independent serviles and Drayks can negotiate with the Shapers for autonomy, when Shaper ideology makes it quite clear that independent serviles and Drayks shouldn't exist in the first place? Such pipe dream thinking is the equivalent of thinking that the blacks could have negotiated with the KKK for freedom from discrimination, apartheid and racial hate back in the 1950's.

Xian Coins are probably the only useful Xian Item in Avernum 3.

The links to the GF3 editor are at the top of this forum...

Quote: Originally written by Xel'Raga: (Or the fact that LT is a drakon) > What the!? I don't 'like' Drakons any more than I 'like' humans. Trajkov is perhaps my favourite character in the series, and anyone with a tiny bit of sense would support the Taker GF1 ending, because it means: - A quick war against the Shapers (although the Sholai make use of spawners. *le gasp* Genocide! *gasp*). - Creation emancipation (Trajkov keeps his word to the serviles). - The throwing off of stifling Shaper rule, which most likely results in greater freedoms regarding Shaping and magic usage. - No Drakons, no Unbound, no Lilita, no Hoge, no Barzhal. - A happy and ethical ending for the PC.

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: Quote: Originally written by Lepus timidus: [qb]The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide? No, the humans target the Gorg because they're an immediate threat. So you're conceding the point that simply because one appears to be targeting a race, does not mean that one is committing genocide. Excellent! Quote: Additionally, what's attacking is their main attack force. Nonsense. The troops on the starships aren't attacking... the ones on the ground are! So apparently, you're willing to tolerate those motherships full of troops hostile to human existence in the Earth's stratosphere. And it was genocide for the humans to force their way onto the ships and slaughter them. Quote: Tell me, are the outsider humans in Geneforge either an attack force or an immediate threat? Let's stick with the Shapers, atm. Are the Shapers an immediate threat? No, not all are, any more than the Gorg on those starships are 'immediate threats', nor the anti-human Gorg soldiers in training back on their homeworld. Have the Shapers declared a war of extermination against all independent Creations, much as the Gorg have against the humans? Yes, they have. Simply because not every Shaper is at Quess-Uss's doorstep with a Discipline Wand in hand does not change the simple fact that they are sworn enemies of the Rebellion. If a people declare that their aim is to exterminate you (and are more than willing to carry it out, see the genocide of the Drayks, the extermination of the Awakened in GF 1 and GF 2), you are more than justified in engaging in a 'pre-emptive' strike out of self-defense. Hit them before they hit you, parry dodge and spin, wot wot. Quote: No. And that's where the analogy falls short. The humans in the analogy are effectively fighting against an enemy Wait! Didn't you previously assert that they were only fighting against an immediate threat? Immediate threat is NOT synonymous with enemy. Quote: , while the rebels are simply slaughtering everything that crosses their path No, the Rebels are killing their enemies. Or, if you don't consider the Outsiders their enemies: The Rebels are killing their enemies, while inflicting a lot of collateral damage. Reminds ya of the good ole United States of America, hey? Quote: Maybe if they had actually focussed the fighting on the shapers, they would never have had to worry about releasing the unbound. They did, but: 1. You (and numerous posters) are still willing to label even that genocide. Apparently your enemy needs to have a Discipline Wand pointed against your temple before you're morally justified in striking back. 2. They lost, so now they need to resort to more desperate measures. Quote: Quote: And just to expand the analogy further, the humans learn that there are human food slaves on the Gorg homeworld, and that the Gorg are planning to attack again, because they will never allow independent humans to exist. Do you: A: Firebomb the crap out of them. or... B: Sit on your hands, because a pre-emptive strike might be considered 'genocide' by the U.N? How 'bout C: Launch an attack that cripples their army and/or economy and/or government, without blowing their entire population into tiny little bits. Ahh, I see. So you choose A: Firebomb the crap out of them. Because the best way to cripple the economy is with a good ole fashioned firebombing (or nuking). Quote: It's disturbing to note how your answers for everything tend to lean toward a mantra of 'blow everything up'. Nonsense. I'd rather try the more conservative methods of dispute resolution first (compromise, pinpoint military strikes, etc.), but if they don't work, then it's time for the gloves to come off.

I think that leaving the island is sort of a cop out. Either killing Sholai, or helping Trajkov by killing Goetssche and getting the gloves, would make an excellent speedrun.

Takers all the way, baby! When you think about it, the best ending is the Taker ending from GF1, because it manages to avoid all of the complications that occur in GF2-GF4.

Nioca: Quote: lepus: For clarification, an analogy. An alien race known as the Gorg invade Earth, believing that humans are an inferior species, deserving only vapourisation. The human retaliate to this invasion with brute force, first defeating the Gorg infantry on Earth, and then boarding the Gorg starships and butchering a crew who fights to the death. Would you class the above as genocide? Apparently so, given that the humans were targeting the Gorg for extermination.[/qb] Quote: You see, there's a vital flaw in your little example here. The humans weren't targeting them because they're alien; they're targeting them because they pose an immediate threat. Ahh, but the very fact that they come from an alien society is relevant, because said alien society sees humans as disposable inferior beings, deserving only to be crushed. How are the Shapers in Geneforge any different from the Gorg in my hypothetical scenario, exactly? The Gorg believe that humans are an inferior species. The Shapers believe that Creations are an inferior species. Check! The Gorg believe that humans only deserve extermination. The Shapers believe that independent Creations deserve extermination. Check! The humans respond by massacring the Gorg. The Rebels respond by massacring the Shapers. Check! The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide? And just to expand the analogy further, the humans learn that there are human food slaves on the Gorg homeworld, and that the Gorg are planning to attack again, because they will never allow independent humans to exist. Do you: A: Firebomb the crap out of them. or... B: Sit on your hands, because a pre-emptive strike might be considered 'genocide' by the U.N? I'd mention the Nazis, but obviously you're tired of that (very apt) comparison. I just think it's rather contradictory of you to claim that my Gorg scenario isn't an example of genocide, whereas the Rebels vs. Shapers scenario is. To be brutally honest, I wonder if their is a little bit of speciesm going on here. Perhaps posters would be more supportive of Rebel tactics if said Rebels were all humans. But instead, the Rebels who have the cahones to beat the crap out of people are actually 30 foot high firebreathing reptiles.

Has anyone ever tried to speedrun Geneforge as a challenge (ie. only do what is absolutely essential to win the game in the least amount of time)?

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: Quote: Originally written by Lepus timidus: [qb]So you admit that the Outsider loyalists (apart from the two year olds, the little dears) have free will, and know that their actions assist in the continuation of an era of oppression and genocide. Nice to know that you're willing to concede that point. No, I'm not. You're under this wonderful fantasy that the Outsiders can do whatever they darn well please, and that if they rebel, they get a nice shiny medal and moral satisfaction. No, just no. I've said no such thing. There is an inherent danger in opposing any tyrannical regime, but as the old saying goes, ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ Quote: And here's another thing: most outsiders don't see the darker side of the Shapers. I disagree. The Outsiders have lived alongside the Shapers for centuries, and I think that they must have at least some inkling of the cruelty of Shaper experiments (guards in research labs), that serviles are capable of independent thought (the servile keeper in Drypeak disposing of Sencia), and of the genocide of the drayks (Outsiders serve in the Shaper armies). Quote: Now look through the eyes of the same outsider, and look at the destruction the Rebels are causing. Except, from an outsider's eye, they don't look like Rebels; they look like power-hungry terrorists who's sole purpose in life is to destroy and pillage anything in their way. Or perhaps it looks like a bunch of independent serviles who... wait... didn't the Shapers tell us that the serviles were dumb placid beings who loved to serve? That would be my first thought, if I were an Outsider, which is why I find it completely implausible that Outsider believe, and continue to believe, that serviles are dumb creatures happy to serve. Are they as gullible as the citizens of Oceania for 1984? Quote: Genocide against the Shapers being justified? No. It doesn't even need a reason, the mere idea of the question speaks for itself. It's not genocide to kill your enemies. If the Shapers were willing to surrender, (or offer a truce/compromise), there would be no justification to slaughter them. But we both know that the Shapers will never concede defeat, or even compromise, with the Rebels wishing for autonomy. So unfortunately, the Shapers must die. The fact of the matter is that the Shapers adhere rigidly to a dogma which encourages them to snuff out any independent Creation life. So until the Shaper faction either changes their ideology or surrenders, said Creation life is entitled to fight back against any Shaper which wishes to destroy them (which, as it currently stands, is 99% of them). Quote: It's funny you should drag that up (again), but I seem to recall that the Nazi regime was also the government of many of the Jews who were killed. Tell me, did the Jews get the government they deserved as well? The Jews were a minority at the time, so I would consider than far less culpable than non-Jewish Germans. And from memory, the Jews did 'declare war' on Germany via boycotts. Quote: Anyway, you're assuming that everyone who opposed the rebels, directly or indirectly, is equally guilty. I never said this! What I asserted was that such a distinction is incidental. The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, the Outsiders are enemies of the Rebellion. Hence there is no reason why the Rebels should bend over backwards to spare them when they employ scorched earth tactics. Even if the Outsiders are 'enemies out of ignorance' (as Dikiyobi keeps stressing, something which I doubt), they are still enemies. If a man runs at you with a knife, you don't hesistate to defend yourself merely because he might be mentally unstable. Quote: And it's just coincidence that each and every one of the targets are either Shapers or closely tied to the Shapers? Congratulations, your powers of deduction amaze me. You're quite right when you speculate that it's probably not a coincidence when the Rebels target a sect which wishes to exterminate and enslave them. For clarification, an analogy. An alien race known as the Gorg invade Earth, believing that humans are an inferior species, deserving only vapourisation. The human retaliate to this invasion with brute force, first defeating the Gorg infantry on Earth, and then boarding the Gorg starships and butchering a crew who fights to the death. Would you class the above as genocide? Apparently so, given that the humans were targeting the Gorg for extermination. Quote: So, after further consideration, I have a question. You act as if it was such a glaringly obvious decision to support the Rebels. So why, in every poll made after GF4, does the majority of voters support the Shapers over the Rebels? For the same reason that democracy doesn't work: People are stupid.

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources, not people. Well aren't you naive. Pray tell, how does an attacker destroy infrastructure without causing civilian casualties? I'm sure Israel and the U.S.A would love to hear about your revolutionary war tactics.

Diki: Quote: Sorry, Lepus, but I'm convinced if I were a servile or drayk, I would be completely unable to trust you. So you don't trust anyone who employs scorched earth tactics? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: Sheesh, it's like you have the attention span of a fly on caffeine. For context: No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers. So you admit that the Outsider loyalists (apart from the two year olds, the little dears) have free will, and know that their actions assist in the continuation of an era of oppression and genocide. Nice to know that you're willing to concede that point. As for the two year olds, you're right. I don't support the targeting of two year olds, as they aren't enemies of the Rebels. But if they happen to get killed while their parents are being targeted, that's just tough. Stuff like that happens in war all the time. You don't think two year olds were killed in the carpet bombings of Dresden, the nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the napalming of Vietnam, the bombing campaign against Serbia, the artillery bombardments and air strikes against the West Bank and Lebanon...? I could go on and on, but I don't think I need to drill the point home with a sledgehammer. Quote: Because that's beside the point. We're not debating whether the Shapers are justified to do that. We both know the answer to that is no. Nice to see that you're willing to concede another point. So rebellion against the Shapers is justified, nay, a moral responsibility? Quote: Yet, according to your draconian policies, anyone who supports the Shapers in any way must die. Shaper loyalists must die. Quote: Have you considered that some of the outsiders are just trying to live their lives under the regime? Like the Germans under the Nazi regime? The people get the government that they deserve. If the Shaper loyalists refuse to stand up and fight against the draconian policies of their government while supporting genocide and enslavement both materialistically and in spirit, then they deserve everything they get. Do you think my Slavic ancestors in the camps cried when German 'civilians' were killed in the indiscriminant aerial bombardment of Germany? And no, this isn't an appeal to emotion, it's just a simple observation. If you and your family are being exterminated and enslaved, the fact that a few 'civilians' who either implicitly or explicitly supported your extermination were killed in the fight for your freedom is the least of your worries. Quote: Wrong. It's not by the sage's hand that free creations die. Haha, good stuff. So I can construct bombs for terrorists, but as long as I'm not the one who actually detonates them and kills kaffir, I'm absolved of blame. Quote: It's a direct result of someone pointing that wand at a creation and firing. Let's turn the situation around. Say aforementioned wand ends up in the hands of the Rebels. Does that make the sage a rebel? If they sell the wand to rebels, their intention is to support the Rebellion, and that makes them fair game for the Shaper regime. There are exceptions to this, such as merchants who deal with both sides, but they are few and far between. For instance, the sage in Dhonal's Keep clearly makes his wands for the Shaper army. Quote: There's a difference between striking back and destroying everything in your path, a difference you refuse to see. Only someone intent on causing more suffering than necessary would burn crops and butcher civilians. It's senseless destruction. It's not senseless. Hungry troops can't march, unsheltered troops are vulnerable to harsh weather, fewer soldiers can be recruited for military actions. Military actions (especially insurgencies) tend to fail when they don't have the support of the local populance. Genghis Khan engaged in a lot of 'senseless' destruction, and look where it got him. Quote: Webster's Definition of Genocide: The systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group. Wiktionary\'s Definition of Genocide: 1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity. 2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. There's no exception to those words. No clause that states that, if the people you're genociding are enemies, then it's not really genocide. No matter how you try to wriggle out of it, the Rebels are attempting to commit genocide. False. It is not genocide to target those who are actively or passively enslaving and destroying your people. The fact that they happen to be part of a nation or political group is incidental (nice try, Diki). For example, were the Allies committing genocide when they killed the Germans and Japanese, and targeted the Nazis for imprisonment and execution post WWII? Are the Americans committing genocide when they attempt to undermine and destroy radical Islamic political groups, such as Hamas? Were the British committing genocide when they attempted to wipe out the IRA? The fact of the matter is that if your 'political enemy' holds as one of their core beliefs that you don't have the right to exist, and actively tries to establish that wet dream, then they are all fair game. Added to which, bludgeoning an imperialistic and highly aggressive nation into submission is not genocide. It is not genocide to target Shaper loyalists, any more than it was genocide for the Yanks to blow up Nazis and Nazi sympathisers. And if anyone gets in the way, tough titty for them!

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: [QB] Inadvertently? Such a statement suggests that either the Outsider humans have no free will, or they are too obtuse to recognize that their support of the Shapers, both materialistically and in spirit, results in further oppression and slaughter of Creations. Also note that the Shapers have no problem with exterminating those who support free Creation colonies in a non-military capacity. Why you remain silent on this fact, while constantly whining about the mere suggestion that the Rebels might be doing the same, is a mystery to me. Quote: [qb] Sure. Yet the opinion of the Shaper Council of Terrestia reflects the 'We must be masters of everything we create' ideology that perfuses Shaper society. There are a few good Shapers (Lilita, Carnelian), but they are in the tiny minority. Quote: And, quite frankly, once the Shapers are removed from power, it only would become necessary to quell those that'd actively oppose the new regime... That's what the Rebels are doing presently... killing their enemies. The sage creating a wand of disruption for Shaper loyalist troops is just as much an enemy to free creations as a Guardian in the vanguard of the Shaper army. That's the best way to kill your enemy, Nioca. You don't just kill his troops when they invade your territory, allowing them to come back to hammer at you again and again (eg. the Awakened ending for GF 2.) You counterstrike. You enter his territory and burn his crops, kill those who provide his soldiers with provisions and shelter, raze any of his fortifications to the ground, and butcher anyone who tries to resist. That's the way war has (and still) is being conducted. It's the way a righteous war is meant to be conducted. It's what the Shapers did on Sucia and Drypeak, so I fail to see why the Rebels shouldn't use the same methods against an Empire which systematically enslaves and brutalizes them. They have no choice. It's either that, or die. If the Shapers and Outsider humans were to surrender to the Rebels, they would most likely be spared. No such luxury applies to 'rogue' creations. Quote: Fact is, there is no freedom until the factions break out of their cycles of control. A big fat red herring. Whether the Drakons are big meanies who delight in roasting puppies is a completely separate issue. We are discussing whether the Rebels are justified in waging 'indiscriminant' warfare in order to defend against enslavement and genocide. Quote: No, you've blatantly stated that you're for killing anyone who helps the Shapers in any way, with an exception for the 'saintly' rebels. That's genocide. No, it's not. Allow me to repeat that timeless quote by Michael Corleone: "I don't want to kill everyone, Tom. Just my enemies." I only support the killing of enemies of free Creations, not some innocent human who dissociates themselves from the corrupt Shaper regime, or a Shaper colony who wishes to remain neutral in the war. No Rebel I know of wants to kill 'all' humans, just the ones who are out to kill them. Quote: It's an oxymoron to say the rebels are justified in doing what they're doing, then turn around and say that you don't support genocide. Targeting your enemies =/= genocide. You might as well just argue that the Allies attempted to commit genocide when they nuked Japan, and carpet bombed Germany.