The Refuge

[Corny Cheese]

I have just started playing Geneforge 3 and was at the Refuge on Greenwood Island and I was just wondering if everybody kills all hte guards and people to get the stuff in their rooms?

[*i]

It depends on your feelings on slaughtering innocents for treasure. Personally, I try to avoid it.

[VCH]

Go for it they aren't innocent really.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

They're probably all criminals.

[Dikiyoba]

Dikiyoba thinks that Dikiyoba left them alone, but only because Dikiyoba's characters tried and died several times before giving up and never came back.

[Archaeolagent]

They're criminals? *scratches head*

[Major]

Quote:

They're criminals? *scratches head*

Well, it says this:

text3 = "The people down here must be hiding from something. This makes you very suspicious. It might be a bandit lair. Or it might be rebels who have gotten in trouble with the Shapers. You will have to be careful.";

And this:

text4 = "This makes sense. Humans who distrust and fear the Shapers live in places they call Refuges, places hidden from the Shapers. They are not necessarily criminals or rebels, though. Just paranoids who don't like you.";

The first was when you go into the caves. The second was when you talk to Aiglos.

[Dikiyoba]

It's more likely that they are paranoid than criminals. They act and talk more like paranoids who dislike Shaper rule and creations than criminals. (Although they certainly wouldn't admit it if they were criminals.)

 

That's Dikiyoba's opinion, anyway.

[Dolphin]

I left those particular people alone. I didn’t really need anything, and would rather leave them alone if possible. Also, it didn't look like they had anything all that valuable.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Some of them may be criminals. It's not a sure thing, but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

And they do have some items of worth, such as the the only iron sword on the first island.

[Student of Trinity]

They're awfully tough for what they have as loot. I figure if you can take them, you don't need what they have.

[MagmaDragoon]

I leave them alone, because I agree with *i.

[Suspicious Vlish]

'Innocent' is such a subjective term. Those in those Refuge admit to being hostile to Shaper rule. They border on being rebels. A loyal Shaper has only one choice, and that it to wipe them out.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
'Innocent' is such a subjective term. Those in those Refuge admit to being hostile to Shaper rule. They border on being rebels. A loyal Shaper has only one choice, and that it to wipe them out.

This is true from a role playing point of view. A loyalist shaper would exterminate them for expressing contrary opinion. The same way that any real loyalist would destroy Lankan at first meeting, for being contaminated by evil and rebelling.

"You dare question a shaper?! You must die now!"

Best sort of character to play a hardline role is the Agent... Because you know they enjoy their job.

[Archaeolagent]

I have to imagine that many hardline loyalist Shapers, after witnessing firsthand the destruction of their school, after being easily incapacitated by a foe (Litalia), and after hearing rumours about the other islands -- not to mention Terrestria -- being overwhelmed by rogues, would decide that the times called for a less unilateral path.

 

IIRC, Alwan doesn't even comment on the Sea Caves people, and he's pretty much the Geneforge equivalent of Karl Rove.

 

-- Also, if a hardcore loyalist would take down Lankan at first sight, why does Diwaniya become so horrified if you kill him? Diwaniya seems pretty straight-edge when you talk to him.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by John Paul v. Jean-Paul:
I have to imagine that many hardline loyalist Shapers, after witnessing firsthand the destruction of their school, after being easily incapacitated by a foe (Litalia), and after hearing rumours about the other islands -- not to mention Terrestria -- being overwhelmed by rogues, would decide that the times called for a less unilateral path.

IIRC, Alwan doesn't even comment on the Sea Caves people, and he's pretty much the Geneforge equivalent of Karl Rove.

-- Also, if a hardcore loyalist would take down Lankan at first sight, why does Diwaniya become so horrified if you kill him? Diwaniya seems pretty straight-edge when you talk to him.

Lord Rahul approves of you dealing with the rebels harshly... Diwaniya is spineless and weak, the end credits even say so, he is punished for not slaying the rebels outright and left on that island simply because there is no worse place to put him. His failure to deal with the rebels by extermination is shameful.

Any contrary opinion is to be met with death... No ands, ifs, or buts. Shapers are pretty much totalitarian. Only the priviledged few can speak out, but even they face eventual termination, like Khyryk, who knows that one day the Shaper Council is going to come knocking on his door and is well prepared for it, or Sharon, hiding in her somewhat well defended grove. She even says that when the time comes that she hopes she is not dealt with to harshly for her conflicting opinions. Shanti even hints at this, more so when you play an Agent in G2, what your role is and how honourable it is to be the Agent. In game texts it describes how Agents are the assassins, murderers, executioners of those who would dare oppose the shapers or dare rise up against their rule or break their laws. Pretty much any violation of the law for non shapers seems to result in death, at least from what I gather. For a shaper, punishment comes in beaurocratic form, like whatsisname being banished to that island for the rest of his miserable life.

In fact, the very fear of Agents coming for them in the night is what keeps people in line. Words to this nature are said someplace in the series I believe.

[Archaeolagent]

The point is that when you have absolute power, as the Shapers previously did, it's easy to enforce "any contrary opinion will be met with death." When your factional power base is fragmented, injured, and mostly inaccessible to you, and when you personally are just a lone apprentice, it's not the same story. Litalia forcibly demonstrates that you can't enforce those kinds of absolute rules, when the game begins. The absurd but unavoidable power escalation your PC experiences aside, Lord Rahul, the most powerful Shaper in the area, is also unable to enforce such rules, even when he has a decent number of other Shapers, and armies of warriors and of creations to back him up.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by John Paul v. Jean-Paul:
The point is that when you have absolute power, as the Shapers previously did, it's easy to enforce "any contrary opinion will be met with death." When your factional power base is fragmented, injured, and mostly inaccessible to you, and when you personally are just a lone apprentice, it's not the same story. Litalia forcibly demonstrates that you can't enforce those kinds of absolute rules, when the game begins. The absurd but unavoidable power escalation your PC experiences aside, Lord Rahul, the most powerful Shaper in the area, is also unable to enforce such rules, even when he has a decent number of other Shapers, and armies of warriors and of creations to back him up.

And that is where the delicious roleplaying factor comes in. A hardcore loyalist will kill all those who cross shaper law, while a sympathetic loyalist will look past minor infractions. (Like when you have to report the servile being contacted by hostiles) The game gives you options to do both.

There is a few points where this breaks down. Like Grenier or however you spell his name... It's not hard to see that under shaper law, he should be terminated for his failure and allowing himself loss of control, and Rahul lets him off because of friendship. For many Shapers though, failure means death. You learn that in the school if you speak with the control mind, that death is the shaper way, and a small price to pay for being able to control and create life. Failure is met with termination, probably in the form of an Agent coming for you in the night. The Shapers are a results oriented society... Not uncommon in total totalitarian rule.

[Mike Montgomery]

I left them alone because I was playing a sympathetic loyalist.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

I kill them because they are, most likely, criminals hiding from the law.

[Archaeolagent]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

Quote:

Originally written by John Paul v. Jean-Paul:
The point is that when you have absolute power, as the Shapers previously did, it's easy to enforce "any contrary opinion will be met with death."

And that is where the delicious roleplaying factor comes in. A hardcore loyalist will kill all those who cross shaper law, while a sympathetic loyalist will look past minor infractions. (Like when you have to report the servile being contacted by hostiles) The game gives you options to do both.

No, not like when you can report a servile. My point is that a true hardcore loyalist -- as you describe her -- would be stubborn to the point of suicide. If I were a hardcore loyalist, I would want to be sure of my survival and my eventual ability to deal with the most egregious violations of Shaper rule -- like Litalia and Akhari Blaze -- rather than throwing hissy fits and possibly getting killed over a couple of reclusive, paranoid humans. Diwaniya might require punishment, but he can be dealt with after the more immediate problems. There is no risk involving in killing or reporting traitorous serviles, on the other hand.

Quote:

Failure is met with termination, probably in the form of an Agent coming for you in the night. The Shapers are a results oriented society... Not uncommon in total totalitarian rule.

While there are people who say this, there is also evidence to the contrary. Greta was allowed to live, despite her magical skills and her quite obviously traitorous leanings -- and that was when the Shapers still held absolute power and would not have been troubled to execute her, or simply to punish her with more than just an expulsion. Failure is often but not always met with termination.

[Archmage Alex]

For the sake of exploring every tiny bit of the game, at one point or another I kill absolutely everything to see what they give me or how it affects the game. I killed them once and saw all they have is crap, so I tend to leave them alone now.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by John Paul v. Jean-Paul:

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

Quote:

Originally written by John Paul v. Jean-Paul:
The point is that when you have absolute power, as the Shapers previously did, it's easy to enforce "any contrary opinion will be met with death."

And that is where the delicious roleplaying factor comes in. A hardcore loyalist will kill all those who cross shaper law, while a sympathetic loyalist will look past minor infractions. (Like when you have to report the servile being contacted by hostiles) The game gives you options to do both.

No, not like when you can report a servile. My point is that a true hardcore loyalist -- as you describe her -- would be stubborn to the point of suicide. If I were a hardcore loyalist, I would want to be sure of my survival and my eventual ability to deal with the most egregious violations of Shaper rule -- like Litalia and Akhari Blaze -- rather than throwing hissy fits and possibly getting killed over a couple of reclusive, paranoid humans. Diwaniya might require punishment, but he can be dealt with after the more immediate problems. There is no risk involving in killing or reporting traitorous serviles, on the other hand.

Quote:

Failure is met with termination, probably in the form of an Agent coming for you in the night. The Shapers are a results oriented society... Not uncommon in total totalitarian rule.

While there are people who say this, there is also evidence to the contrary. Greta was allowed to live, despite her magical skills and her quite obviously traitorous leanings -- and that was when the Shapers still held absolute power and would not have been troubled to execute her, or simply to punish her with more than just an expulsion. Failure is often but not always met with termination.

Greta was an initiate, and not a full shaper. She wasn't even an apprentice really. Expulsion was probably the standard way out. She was unfit for duty. Weeded out. A lot of shapers start out feeling sympathy for creations, this is evident, even Shanti speaks about it, but it is conditioned out in time. And from a realistic stand point, probably the reason why Agents travel alone so much... Shapers and Guardians, being able to create life and having creations, might have feelings for what they create, emotions for their creations, their creatures. Some Shapers, and I speak as a Shaper, one of the three classes, some Shapers probably never fully shake these feelings. Hoge has that old Alpha that he has kept around forever and upgraded. Fyoras are said to be kept as pets and sentries. An Agent is probably heavily conditioned to not get an emotional attatchment to anything, which is probably why they don't shape so well. They are there to take life, not create it, or heal it. Hence, Greta's failure was that she had emotions, which is probably a liability for potential Agents. Emotions could be used against them... Like, say, provoking anger or total outrage in a Shaper by attacking his beloved pet Fyora... Said emotional outburst would be a weakness, something to exploit. A lone solitary Agent would have no such weakness, and, if as theorised, was a conditioned mass murderer, would be perfect for upholding her role as judge, jury, and executioner with no messy emotions or personal sentiments getting in the way. The Shaper society would have themselves the perfect police force and judicial system... No messy public trials, very little corruption, and lots of results to be rid of criminals. The fact they feel the need to hide in some dank hole says an awful lot.

Upon taking those tests, like in the testing grounds, I believe it is from that point on that death starts being the penalty for utter failure, unless of course, there is a fate worse than death handy, like being marooned on a swampy smelly island.

And something to think about... How many fallen Agents do you see in the Geneforge games? Lots of fallen Guardians, like whatsisname, Barzal, and many fallen Shapers, but how many fallen Agents do you see running around

[Archaeolagent]

Lots, if you count the number of times people playing Agents save and reload

 

Seriously though, how many agents do you see at all? Very few. G1 has none, G2 and G3 definitely have more shapers and I think more guardians. Shanti, the only agent who is ever significant to the plot, dies. Macwhatserface in G3 dies in the Rebel storyline. How many agents do you see who prosper?

[Delicious Vlish]

Agents simply aren't as visible, and obviously not as prone to fall from grace. I seriously doubt they want to be noticed.

 

I do believe that G3 is meant to be played from the Agent's perspective though... The character in the storyboard picture is now an Agent.

[Dikiyoba]

Another reason for seeing fewer Agents is that fewer Agents are needed than Guardians and Shapers. Multiple Guardians are needed to guard whatever is important enough to be guarded, and they always have to be there. Shapers can spend years on research, and it takes more than one Shaper to run a lab. On the other hand, Agents go out alone on quick assignments, so fewer Agents are necessary.

 

Dikiyoba thinks that perhaps there will be a total of six Geneforges. Two have Shapers for intro graphics, two will have Agents, and two will have Guardians.

[Archaeolagent]

What about the two new classes, then?

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Corny Cheese:
I have just started playing Geneforge 3 and was at the Refuge on Greenwood Island and I was just wondering if everybody kills all hte guards and people to get the stuff in their rooms?

When playing as a rebel or a loyalis - no. When playing as a munchikin - yes. ("Munchikin" is a term for players whose goal is to make their characters as powerful as possible.)

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
'Innocent' is such a subjective term. Those in those Refuge admit to being hostile to Shaper rule. They border on being rebels. A loyal Shaper has only one choice, and that it to wipe them out.

This is true from a role playing point of view. A loyalist shaper would exterminate them for expressing contrary opinion. The same way that any real loyalist would destroy Lankan at first meeting, for being contaminated by evil and rebelling.

"You dare question a shaper?! You must die now!"
...

That's not true about the Shapers as presented in the game. Lankan's crime was attacking a Shaper, and even in his case death penalty isn't the only option. Plenty of characters in the games (including a lot of opinion-asking characters) openly express their dislike for either some Shaper actions or Shapers in general.

As for people in the refuge, one of the questions you can ask is "are there criminals here", which implies that just living in the Refuge (and expressing opinions bordering on rebellion) isn't a crime.

Quote:

Originally written by Dxtrgrtba:
...
Dikiyoba thinks that perhaps there will be a total of six Geneforges. Two have Shapers for intro graphics, two will have Agents, and two will have Guardians.

Since Jeff implied more character classes in G4, this method will leave room for about 10 Geneforges. And by then we'll have even more character classes, so even more will have to be made, and Geneforges will be spreading like canisters.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

The larger population of Agents probably stay hidden from most people. If people knew who killed their Uncle, don't you think someone would do something?

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Bobby Pendragon:
The larger population of Agents probably stay hidden from most people. If people knew who killed their Uncle, don't you think someone would do something?

Yeah, that's my point exacly.I bet for most people, they don't even know that an Agent is around until it is to late. To late of course meaning suddenly bursting in to flame or melting in to a puddle of goo from a blob of acid.

G3 was interesting when you meet that Agent. She had disguised her self. Yet another aspect of Agenthood. You could meet one and never know...

The Agent is the proverbial boogeyman of the Geneforge world. Er, boogeywoman.

I'd really like to see a game where you are actually in Shaper society, rather than isolated on an island or in some backwater outpost.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

She probably leads a life as an exotic merchant and often gets "opportunities" to get rare items and has to leave for awhile often.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Bobby Pendragon:
She probably leads a life as an exotic merchant and often gets "opportunities" to get rare items and has to leave for awhile often.

That's funny... My exotic merchant does come home with many rare and unique items after an extended business trip.

[Archaeolagent]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
I'd really like to see a game where you are actually in Shaper society, rather than isolated on an island or in some backwater outpost.

Good luck.

A1/2: Remote, isolated area (caves, exiled), recently settled
A3: Relatively remote, isolated area (quarantine), relatively recently settled
VODT: Remote, isolated area (valley, quarantine)
ASR: Remote, isolated area (island, quarantine), relatively recently settled
ZKR: Remote, isolated area (caves, warzone), never settled
DWTD: Remote, isolated area, recently settled
Nethergate: Remote, isolated area (valley)
G1: Remote, super isolated area (island, quarantine), deserted
G2: Remote, isolated area (valley, quarantine), recently settled
G3: Remote, isolated area (islands, quarantine)

Did I mention that if I never see the word "quarantine" in a Spidweb game or scenario again, I will be very happy?

[Delicious Vlish]

You know, there could be another entirely logical reason why you don't actually see to many high level Agents.

 

It is all to easy for them to dominate somebody and then have that somebody kill for them. How is that for totalitarian authority? Criminals could be dispatched by their own wives or loved ones in a "domestic dispute" and not raise a single eyebrow.

[Randomizer]

The idea is that agents are the invisible assassins and the enforcers of the Shapers. Shanti in GF2 is there to intimidate the shaper and guardian as well as get information. They don't need anybody else to do their job.

 

First thing the shaper did in GF1 was create an army to protect him and mine the route in to his area. In GF2 there are all those turrets and guardians as bodyguards. Even in GF1 there was a mention that the shaper going to investigate the ruined temple area of the Spirit City needed guardians to protect him.

 

Agents are sent in to enforce the Shaper Council's decisions. There may not be many of them because of the difficulties in training them (they die in a strong wind). Guardians are the bodyguards and army. Shapers create serviles and other creatures so they can't go anywhere without their creations.

[*i]

Quote:

I'd really like to see a game where you are actually in Shaper society, rather than isolated on an island or in some backwater outpost.

Remote areas are the easiest to make, cuts back on the amount of detail/dialogue you need to put in. Also, makes the whole monster plague concept pretty easy (just don't make so much sense in a highly urban setting).

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Slartucker:

 

Quote:

What about the two new classes, then?

Oh, right. Those. Well, they will have to appear as well. But since ten game seems a little excessive, one of them can only appear once, or two of them will have to appear together. That way we will have nine Geneforges, or the Geneforge Trilogy of Trilogies.

 

Now that Dikiyoba thinks about it, Dikiyoba was doubly foolish, for one of Dikiyoba's friends inquired several days ago whether Dikiyoba was playing G7. G7 needs to exist after that comment!

[Major]

Quote:

Remote areas are the easiest to make, cuts back on the amount of detail/dialogue you need to put in. Also, makes the whole monster plague concept pretty easy (just don't make so much sense in a highly urban setting).

Yes, but This is war towns are destroyed. So a lot would be ruins. With a few people wondering around. Remote isolated places are fun, but now it's war. Battles in the streets, saving refuges, and of course, diplomacy.

[VCH]

Agents are just far too powerful, as many people claim, to allow more than a few to wander unsupervised.

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by VCH:
Agents are just far too powerful, as many people claim, to allow more than a few to wander unsupervised.

This just means there are even more hidden super-agents watching the agents. And even more rare and powerful super-super-agents watching the super-agents. And ...

[Firecage]

Kill them!KILL THEM ALL>IF THEY WANT TO BE HOSTILE TO HAPERS AND REJECTCT SHAPER RULE THE MUST PERISH!uhem.....sorry.

[felix2]

quote:

Dikiyoba thinks that Dikiyoba left them alone, but only because Dikiyoba's characters tried and died several times before giving up and never came back.

 

INTERESTING

[MagmaDragoon]

Using a new account don't change much, felix... You are still spamming.

 

Go ahed, and both felix and felix2 accounts will be banned.

[Archaeolagent]

Actually, no, Felix's IP address(es) will be banned so he can't log in at all from wherever he is. So it would be a good idea to stop spamming, sir felix!

[MagmaDragoon]

Quote:

Originally written by Slarty:
Actually, no, Felix's IP address(es) will be banned so he can't log in at all from wherever he is. So it would be a good idea to stop spamming, sir felix!

It seems too late...