Not a single loyal hand in Avadon [SPOILERS]

[Lilith]

One of the limitations of a game such as this is you can only have so many choices. For instance, for Yorshiria's quest, had this been a tabletop game with a live DM, I would have made a counteroffer to the Grey Falcons: give me information on the specific records you want eliminated and, if they indeed have minimal intelligence value, I will eliminate them in a much quieter manner than setting the records hall on fire.

 

If I were your GM, my counter to your counteroffer would probably be to point out that then you would know exactly what records contain information harmful to the Gray Raptors and where to find them, which is the kind of situation they're trying to avoid in the first place. I'm not saying the quest is perfect, but it does make at least some sense that you end up being given the options you are.

[Serene Tempest]

And perhaps we would go through a few more rounds of counteroffers... but even if we still ended at an impasse, and I still had to choose between either burning the records or fighting the Grey Raptors, that's different from a character development perspective than immediately defaulting to one of those two choices.

 

There are other parts in the game where there are "neutral" answers to questions. I guess what I'd (realistically) want to see in cases like this would be for the "neutral" options to still be there even if they don't work. Like at the end of Dedrik's quest.

[Lilith]

Yeah, I know what you mean. From some comments in the Avadon 2 script files it's possible to piece together that a lot of those ineffective neutral options get added in after the main dialogue tree is written, and so things like that sometimes get left out if nobody ends up getting around to putting them in. There's some speculation that the game might have been rushed a little to meet the October release schedule -- I guess now that Jeff's got relationships with distribution services like Steam and GOG who have their own sales schedules, release deadlines actually have some meaning to him.

[eaintree]

No. And there really should be in A2; your party should start to mistrust you if you tell her that you went to find gold for Alcander, that you slaughtered mercenaries who were nominally loyal to Avadon for Dedrick's sake, that you SET THE FIRE in Avadon's basement -- for that last one they'd obvs. send you to the dungeons yourself -- you AND Yoshira -- as soon as they even suspected that you did it, in the reality of that situation; there are points at which the seams in the story Jeff scripted really show, and that's one of them.

 

 

Actually, would they? With rare exceptions, Avadon doesn't really seem to do imprisonment for crimes, only to get information out of people -- and you've just made a full confession, so what information can they usefully get out of you? Seems more like a "kill you or let you go" situation from Avadon's perspective, and you're too useful to kill.

 

 

Okay. Let's consider this.

 

All of the other companion quests, and all of the party's side-quests in the first game, fall into a grey area concerning what's good for Avadon. Avadon *may* be willing to write off Xenophon as collateral damage for what happened to Khalida, and write off the Claw as collateral damage for what happened to Sevilin. They may think that Nathalie's drake and Yannick's lust for ancient magic are just a waste of time. They may have always known that Shima might take it on himself to avenge the Threespear clan (they knew who he has when they made him a Hand), they may chalk up Dedrick's slaughter of the mercs as inevitable, because Avadon can't officially sanction their actions or even their existence, really. They may be indifferent to Jennell taking out a corrupt Shaman because it's an internal Wyldrylm matter. They may roll their eyes if Alcander wants to play Tomb Raider.

 

They may be willing to overlook all of that, let all of it slide, because all of it, from Avadon's perspective, at least pays lip service, cynically, to principles and to fighting the good fight for truth and justice.

 

This does not. You just destroyed a major portion of Avadon's HISTORY. This is not a matter in which Avadon can plausibly grant you the latitude of a free pass. This isn't about just blackmail options -- if you let the fire creature destroy everything, then you've created incalculable gaps in the knowledge that the institution of Avadon can find about itself. They do not have the information backed up on thumb drives. If Avadon were a tabletop D&D game and you did this, your choices would be obvious: keep your culpability secret forever, or leave and spend your life on the run, or join up with Dheless. No GM would be able to say that Avadon *doesn't really mind* because you're useful. Because if you'll do THIS, then how can they know that you'll ever follow a single order, ever again? How could they know that you weren't in Dheless' pocket from the start? Dungeon scrying would be the *least* that would happen.

 

Or shall we say that if you beat Craftmaster Nicodemus unconscious with a baseball bat, dragged him to the dining hall and beheaded him, Proteus would just mildly ask you to not do that sort of thing again? Would Redbeard just shake his head and advise you to keep a diary?

 

In a well-made game, nothing happens in a vacuum. In Avadon 2, plenty of things happen in vacuums. Which means, ultimately, that they don't really happen: they just kinda-sorta happen; you can accept that they happen if you don't give them very much thought.

[Randomizer]

There are places where if you admit to doing things to Callan and Redbeard, they mention that you will be punished for the actions for Dedrick and Yoshiria's quests, but the punishments are postponed for now in order to deal with Dheless. They do mind, but right now isn't the time to deal with it when Avadon needs even Hands of questionable loyalty.

[eaintree]

*

 

Fun n' games aside, my post above about Yoshira's quest is really my last word on the subject.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Triumph
Inappropriate Content

[eaintree]

There are places where if you admit to doing things to Callan and Redbeard, they mention that you will be punished for the actions for Dedrick and Yoshiria's quests, but the punishments are postponed for now in order to deal with Dheless. They do mind, but right now isn't the time to deal with it when Avadon needs even Hands of questionable loyalty.

 

Well, no. When you confront Redbeard below Fort Foresight he doesn't even mention it. You do not even, as you do in A1, get the option to argue the right-and-wrong of your party's various beefs with Avadon. There is no indication that what you did will have any consequence in the long run, if Redbeard stays in power.

[mikeprichard]

It's been mentioned elsewhere that Jeff's sort of running out of steam these days. I think the (IMO) weaker story and quest development and much more linear style of Avadon compared to the earlier Exile/Avernum titles are symptoms of this. Not trying to be harsh; just looking to explain the changes I've noticed in the more recent titles myself. That said, unless Jeff suddenly switches from making RPGs to making first-person badminton games, the man will always be able to count on me as a customer.

[eaintree]

It's been mentioned elsewhere that Jeff's sort of running out of steam these days. I think the (IMO) weaker story and quest development and much more linear style of Avadon compared to the earlier Exile/Avernum titles are symptoms of this. Not trying to be harsh; just looking to explain the changes I've noticed in the more recent titles myself. That said, unless Jeff suddenly switches from making RPGs to making first-person badminton games, the man will always be able to count on me as a customer.

 

Yeah... can't say likewise. Might not even glance at A3 in two years.

[Serene Tempest]

Avadon also has a long history of letting people who have committed major offenses against it (Claw, Xenephone) off the hook because they're too valuable to be severely punished. Considering that you have (depending on how far into the game you are):

 

 

Almost single-handedly brought down multiple rebel bases, killed the leader of the Wyldrylm rebels, tracked down and killed Miranda, and been the only servant of Avadon to track down Dreless and live...

 

 

...you are most likely in the same boat. Even if your offense is greater than those two, so are your achievements.

[mikeprichard]

 

 

Yeah... can't say likewise. Might not even glance at A3 in two years.

 

Funny, A3's the remake I'm looking forward to the most - it's by far my favorite Spiderweb game yet. Just goes to show everyone has different priorities!

[Serene Tempest]

I'm personally looking forward the most to the G1 remake.

[mikeprichard]

I've been curious about that - never been as big a fan of Geneforge as Exile/Avernum, but when is Jeff planning to start the Geneforge remakes? Or is he?

[eaintree]

Avadon also has a long history of letting people who have committed major offenses against it (Claw, Xenephone) off the hook because they're too valuable to be severely punished. Considering that you have (depending on how far into the game you are):

 

 

Almost single-handedly brought down multiple rebel bases, killed the leader of the Wyldrylm rebels, tracked down and killed Miranda, and been the only servant of Avadon to track down Dreless and live...

 

 

...you are most likely in the same boat. Even if your offense is greater than those two, so are your achievements.

 

/shrug. It only adds up on a default level. Probably gonna be the last Spiderweb game I buy.

[Randomizer]

I've been curious about that - never been as big a fan of Geneforge as Exile/Avernum, but when is Jeff planning to start the Geneforge remakes? Or is he?

Geneforge remakes are scheduled after Avernum 2 and 3 remakes and I guess Avadon 3. Or maybe it was Avernum 2 and Avadon 3 since the email wasn't too clear which 3 game it was.

[Lightzy]

Also none of the 'followers' seem to notice that though they dislike avadon, avadon is currently fighting against someone who they themselves saw is completely insane and. as they themselves heard first hand, wants to "wash the wyldrym with fire and kill everyone", and someone who is 100% to kill them if avadon fails, not to mention that avadon itself is likely to kill them if they get caught, and in some cases even a whole city wants to kill them. They're as developped as a baby who's mad at mom for not letting him stick a fork in the socket, I dunno

[Lilith]

In fairness, they are still all willing to help hunt down Miranda regardless of their misgivings about Avadon.

[Shogo]

Whoa whoa whoa. Hold up.

 

Geneforge remakes?

 

That's AWESOME.

 

Geneforge is how I discovered Spiderweb Software. Specifically, there was this PC Gaming magazine I picked up when I was about 12. Geneforge was one of the things on the demo disc. (I think it also had a System Shock 2 demo. Can't remember what other stuff was on it)

 

I've always loved the Geneforge series the most. While I've played the Avernum games, but not the original Exile games, I've never really been taken with them in the same way that I was with Geneforge.

 

Though I still gave EftP a go . . . And I'd enjoy it if some of the extra content for Avernum 2's remake involved siding with the Empire. (I'd do it mostly for the lulz, but also to kick the [censored] out of the vahnatai.)

[mikeprichard]

Geneforge remakes are scheduled after Avernum 2 and 3 remakes and I guess Avadon 3. Or maybe it was Avernum 2 and Avadon 3 since the email wasn't too clear which 3 game it was.

 

Based on absolutely no inside info whatsoever, I'm thinking the progression will be Avernum 2 remake - Avadon 3 - Avernum 3 remake - Geneforge remakes. But Jeff is a wily one - Avernum 7 might also be next.

[Serene Tempest]

From what I've gathered, we're actually more likely to see an Avernum prequel than an Avernum 7.

[mikeprichard]

From what I've gathered, we're actually more likely to see an Avernum prequel than an Avernum 7.

 

Yeah, I was trying to make a funny... and an Avernum prequel would be pretty freakin' awesome.

[mouton]

Whoa whoa whoa. Hold up.

 

Geneforge remakes?

 

That's AWESOME.

Not really. This will bring Jeff money, as he gets ever older and grumpier, but I'd rather he made something new. Of course, you never know, one day he might do just that. I think he mentioned somewhere it is possible.

[Dikiyoba]

Or shall we say that if you beat Craftmaster Nicodemus unconscious with a baseball bat, dragged him to the dining hall and beheaded him, Proteus would just mildly ask you to not do that sort of thing again? Would Redbeard just shake his head and advise you to keep a diary?

It's Craftmaster Nicodemus, creator of useless junk (in Avadon 1) and malfunctioning turrets. Of course that's what they would do. And then every Eye, Hand, and servant in Avadon would hoist you on their shoulders and parade you around.

 

Dikiyoba.

[springacres]

There are places where if you admit to doing things to Callan and Redbeard, they mention that you will be punished for the actions for Dedrick and Yoshiria's quests, but the punishments are postponed for now in order to deal with Dheless. They do mind, but right now isn't the time to deal with it when Avadon needs even Hands of questionable loyalty.

I wasn't aware of that, but in this game I still struggled with reporting anything to Callan and Redbeard. In the end, I only told Callan about Khalida's and Yannick's issues because my character was worried about them and felt that SOME explanation was required. By the time he got around to talking to Redbeard about Dedrick, he had already joined the Wyldrylm rebellion and didn't mind telling a bald-faced lie to keep his fellow Hand out of trouble. And it never crossed his mind to rat out Alcander or Yoshiria.

 

(In Khalida's case, he decided to let Xenophon live after paying a fine, because he didn't want to break any Dharamite laws or piss off the rest of the townspeople, which made it a lot easier to report on her.)

 

[adc.]

Who are Alwan and Greta?

They are two legendary characters that existed in a legendary game called Geneforge.

-----

None of them are loyal? Then I'll play as a rebel.

-----

-Nightwatcher

[springacres]

It's Craftmaster Nicodemus, creator of useless junk (in Avadon 1) and malfunctioning turrets. Of course that's what they would do. And then every Eye, Hand, and servant in Avadon would hoist you on their shoulders and parade you around.

 

Dikiyoba.

And Alcander would be leading the parade and being genuinely cheerful/less pissed off for once.

[Davies]

 

It's Craftmaster Nicodemus, creator of useless junk (in Avadon 1) and malfunctioning turrets. Of course that's what they would do.

 

In fairness, he creates some pretty cool stuff this time. Which is not to say that you are wrong, exactly ...

[Randomizer]

Click on any of the turrets in his workshop to read the appended notation from his assistants. Or do the Library Stacks quest and talk to Nicodemus.

[springacres]

Or take Alcander along when you're chasing Chabon through the dungeons and listen to his commentary.

[Valdain the King]

I think jeff really needs to make the 3rd game with a crazy, sadistic lunatic for one of the npcs. I mean most of the hands in game just do as they are told and maybe do a few rebellious acts. Whatever happened to chaotic realism? In other games some npcs will kill people, backstab the party, kill other party members and do other depraved acts. We need at least 1 or 2 psychos in game as it makes more sense. You should be able to convince sevelin in the first game that he would gain ultimate and his honor back if he attacked miranda or red beard. How awesome would it be to go find him attacking and killing miranda late in game.

 

The hands all have soiled minds, its now a matter of polluting those minds with even more debauchery.

 

I would say at this point the Avernum characters you create have better life stories and are generally more tough than any of the characters including the player character in Avadon 1 and 2

[springacres]

It might be fun in theory, but it would make little to no sense. I personally think Redbeard is as crazy a character as we're likely to see in a position of power. And even his craziness had its limits.

[Mistah Q]

I hope this isn't too old to bump, but it seemed the best thread for this question.

 

I'm playing sort of a loyalist playthrough and none of the character quests are entirely palatable to me in that light.

 

I'm okay with them not helping me overthrow Redbeard. But my question is,

 

If I side with Avadon and upset them... can I still save Fort Farsight (i.e. tell three of them to go upstairs)?

How about if I never bother to do their quests at all?

 

If not, can I change their mind by telling the console "sorryyannick" or anything like that?

[Lilith]

If I side with Avadon and upset them... can I still save Fort Farsight (i.e. tell three of them to go upstairs)?

How about if I never bother to do their quests at all?

 

Yes and yes. In fact, if you do none of their quests, you can't possibly fail to save Fort Foresight even if you wanted to.

[Mistah Q]

Thank you. Seems slightly hypocritical: Yannick and Khalida clearly expected me to choose duty over Silke.

[Earth]

Only totally non-loyalist quest is Yoshi's quest, Khalida's quest is bit un-loyally and Dedrik's same although Redbeard isn't that upset and others quests aren't really 1 way or other.