Sooo...Avadon and future games might need to expand.

Garrulous Glaahk · July 11, 2011

So i just finished Avadon: The Black Fortress. My reaction was at Castle Verbeaux was what the heck??? Someone is head hunting me? I thought i had to go rogue in the wild. After i returned to Avadon i found dark assassin everywhere. Hoping this isn't the end but then i find Redbeard killing the Wayfarer. So i'm kinda loyal so i tried the "I will remain an Hand", "I wish to become an eye", and "I wish to become a heart, i believe the position is open".

This hasn't been much for me, i guess this is the average size of a Spiderweb Game. I seriously expected much more, i mean this isn't like a waste of ten bucks (I got this on my IPad), it just that its way to short. I don't know if Jeff's computer exploads after uploading too much data but atleast like...show something about Dharam, or what happens in Wyldrylf (How do you spell that).

Whole story didn't seem to add up much, just that basically there's Shadow Tarkus he goes around after being free contacting you do his dirty work and basically getting caught in more ogres, titans, wretches, Khemarians, and other guys who want to kill you cause you found out they were trying to mess around with the pact. But it just seemed like a bunch of loose ends that needed to be tied up.

Spiderweb maybe you can knit those threads together at Avadon II, or maybe in future games make it slightly longer? Your games are so epic they can't stop unless i've played it for a month. The gameplay was great yes, what i like in Spiderweb games the retro battle styles and all that, but the fact the story is always so slow (I am a fast player, with or without cheat codes) hinders my gameplay. For ten bucks could i get atleast an epilogue or prologue story inside the game? Or a bonus part inside, where you find out about the explorers who found places other than Lynaeus and we can just become them?

Spiderweb this game was totally awesome, gameplay,characters, the story, however as that big text above here i said the story was maybe a bit too short, so that gives a 9.8/10.0

Easygoing Eyebeast · July 11, 2011

Previous Spiderweb have been somewhat longer than Avadon (varies by game).

Also, the iPad price is less than half of what Jeff usually sells his games for (when they are for Mac / PC), so Jeff was really pushing things by setting the iPad price where he did in the effort to reach a new market.

Magnificent Ornk · July 11, 2011

Originally Posted By: Triumph

Previous Spiderweb have been somewhat longer than Avadon (varies by game).

Sometimes a lot longer. Avadon is SW's shortest game by a fair margin. They aren't available for iPad, but they're definitely worth playing (well, most of them, anyway).

Originally Posted By: AethirWeb

But it just seemed like a bunch of loose ends that needed to be tied up.

Honestly, I find the endings have become worse over the years. So for a good ending you have to go back to the first Avernum and Geneforge games.

Dikiyoba.

Magnificent Ornk · July 11, 2011

To be as brutally honest as I expect Jeff would be, Jeff is not in business to give us all free beer. If the main complaint people make is that they would have liked more of his game, but they acknowledge that it wasn't so short as to be a rip-off, then he's probably setting a fair price on the package he's selling. More play will cost more, as soon as he has Avadon 2 ready.

I guess I agree that Avadon seems shorter than other Spiderweb games, though this is partly because you revisit the same places a lot, and the main plot seems quite simple in hindsight. It didn't seem so obvious as it was unfolding, at least not to me. Chocolate bars get smaller over time, too, until eventually you're paying what used to be jumbo-bar prices for the size that used to be regular. Then they bring in a super-jumbo size, at a higher price than ever before, and the cycle continue.

Easygoing Eyebeast · July 11, 2011

Thank you, SoT. Now I know the REAL problem with Avadon: there isn't enough in-game chocolate.

Hatchling Cockatrice · July 11, 2011

The length of the plot is shorter, but it's mainly the lower number of areas to explore. There are something like 20-25 in the entire game, which is hugely less than in previous games. Granted, some of these have big lower levels, but that was also true of previous games. And also granted, the zones are larger than in previous games, but this seems to mainly take the form of more space between everything, larger buildings, etc., rather than a lot more stuff per zone.

Garrulous Glaahk · July 11, 2011

Originally Posted By: AethirWeb

Whole story didn't seem to add up much, just that basically there's Shadow Tarkus he goes around after being free contacting you do his dirty work and basically getting caught in more ogres, titans, wretches, Khemarians, and other guys who want to kill you cause you found out they were trying to mess around with the pact. But it just seemed like a bunch of loose ends that needed to be tied up.

Seems that you've missed a very important thread

Click to reveal..

Heart Miranda was pulling your strings the whole time. She was working with the Tawon Empire along with Shadow Tarkus. The Tawon were also behind ogres, titans, wretches, etc...

They were grooming you, showing you the corruption of Avadon with the missions. Miranda was pairing you up with companions who might betray Avadon, who had cause to be resentful. She was sending you on missions of questionable morality. And Tarkus was there to point such things out to you. They were working together to turn you against Redbeard. That ties up pretty much all the loose ends.

Magnificent Ornk · July 11, 2011

Originally Posted By: Various people:

Avadon is the shortest SW game by a fair margin

I mean, I agree with this, but I just thought. How do people feel it compares in length to Nethergate? I'd say it's pretty close, but Nethergate seems bigger because you've got the outdoors system, and you don't have to go back to places you've already been.

Hatchling Cockatrice · July 11, 2011

Nethergate had 25 outdoors sections and 25 town/dungeon zones, many of which had multiple levels to them, and a few of which were different depending on if you were Celts or Romans.

Avadon has under 25 zones, period. Again, the caveats I mentioned above apply, but Nethergate is definitely bigger.

Hatchling Cockatrice · July 12, 2011

Quite a few of the areas, and all of the main quests, also play out differently in Nethergate depending on whether you're playing as Celts or Romans.

—Alorael, who agrees that Avadon is smaller. He doesn't think it's too short. He'd also anticipate the sequels being longer, as less time will have to go into developing the basic engine and mechanics.

Hatchling Cockatrice · July 12, 2011

The first SW game made with a new engine always tends to be shorter than average, because more of the design cycle is being spent on the engine and less on content. Exile 1 and Geneforge 1 were shorter than the rest of their respective series, and Nethergate was SW's shortest game until Avadon. Avadon does seem like something of an extreme example, but even so we can probably expect Avadon 2 to be larger.

Hatchling Cockatrice · July 12, 2011

OTOH, Avadon's shorter length (as well as the shorter length of the demo) was clearly a conscious choice.

Hatchling Cockatrice · July 12, 2011

The demo, yes. But the shorter length of the game? How so, other than the fact that there aren't obvious cuts? The plot is modular enough that more sections, or even entire regions, could have been added. Even if you argue that the very earliest parts of the game indicate that the full game is present, all that shows is that Jeff had the foresight to plan out a shorter game so that it would fit in its intended development time.

—Alorael, who can see how that's a conscious choice. It's not really a design decision, though; it's more of an acceptance of the development cycle dictated by having to feed children.

Hatchling Cockatrice · July 12, 2011

The original Avadon demo ended at the gates to Zhethron Aerie, a whole zone less.

I think from the quest reward like doors that Jeff intended more content, but decided against it when players were getting to the level cap too soon.

Unflappable Drayk · July 13, 2011

also there is enough repititititition in zones that you are often going to familiar areas for different reasons

Garrulous Glaahk · July 24, 2011

Ohhh well actually i never talked to Miranda until like after i died at Redbeard and i finally noticed her. So when i wrote this post i never knew Miranda was the puppeteer. But it was more like Shadow Tarkus and Miranda.

Garrulous Glaahk · July 24, 2011

Well the game was kind of clear in the end but when i wanted to start with Avadon, atleast let me go OUT of the fortress into the Wyldrym (Don't know to spell it...). Or maybe we can visit Dharam? I mean i sucked up nearly every bit information trying to hunt down the Codexes (Which i need help finding all of the BTW), and i have no idea what Dharam is really like, nor Tawon Empire or that island (Svorgald) which i never recalled even mentioned.

So i guess the games at the beginning at the trilogies should atleast explore alot of the areas. I can get if we need to go to Zhetron back and forth and the other two missions. But come on? There was basically three plots, Zhethron being bought away from the pact so we have to help him, Verbeaux making peace with Holklanda, and Khemeria and the Shadow Beast.

I had lots of fun with all of them but this game took me like what? three - four days? When i spent my ten bucks i expected this to last atleast a weak or two. Like even the Geneforge 1 game was longer than Avadon (Maybe cause i've been scouring for Canisters 70% of the time). I really thought this game would be like Avernum and Geneforge but it's sooooo short!

Could we have like one or two trips to the Kva? Like instead of one by one picking the Wretches, Ogres, then Titans why couldn't we attack the Wretches but that Onghror guy just leads us to an ogre invasion or something and we stop it. Then we go to Avadon, do another mission and back. So there's room for more plot.

I'm not a player usually for fun but i like eating up the history of Spiderweb Games, but there could be like a lot of ways the game can be made shorter and get it straight to the point. The game was good as i said 9.8/10.0 and i'm not saying how the company should run itself, it's just that the game really could be cut back in length for more content.

Easygoing Eyebeast · July 24, 2011

I really have no problem with "short" games as long as they are full of relevant and entertaining content. My usual problem with RPGs is that they're stretched thin to give the illusion of length, when most of the game could be fit into a period of 10 hours or so.

I am enjoying the Avadon demo, but I'm worried that the game will take the turn that Avernum 5 did and lump me into quest blocks.

Understated Ur-Drakon · July 24, 2011

Avadon is quest-heavy.

Easygoing Eyebeast · July 24, 2011