what does A4 offer us?

[waffleguy]

what can you do in this new game?

i am personally a windows user so i have no idea what is going on

can you buy a house like in A3?

is there a character editor?

is there skribbane?

are there any xian items(skull)?

 

and remember kids, dont chew skribbane

[Student of Trinity]

No.

No.

No.

No.

 

What it does offer is: better 3D, Geneforge-style (in fact, all too Geneforge-style for many old Avernites);

big, wide-open world -- no separation between town and country, no zones;

the main thing: a lot of interesting battles, in an engine that admits a wide range of tactical twists.

 

Especially if you play on Torment, you have to think about how to build your party, and how to attack different enemies. You could almost say it's more of a strategy game than an RPG.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
You could almost say it's more of a strategy game than an RPG.

Hrm... I would agree with you.

[Alorael at Large]

All CRPGs are strategy and tactics games mechanically, and that's become far more part of the definition of role-playing game than role-playing. The difference is that Avernum has hitherto been light on the tactics and A4 makes tactics very important.

 

The suffering of the plot is entirely unrelated.

 

—Alorael, who wouldn't play Avernum expecting anything more than combat challenges and the world of Avernum. All the excess baggage has fallen by the wayside. Unfortunately some good stuff was considered baggage.

[waffleguy]

wait, so there is no longer a world map like in avernums but neither is it different areas like geneforge?

its just one big map with lots of walking in between towns?

[Aoslare]

Yeah. You can think of it a bit like Geneforge minus the zoomed out map. I miss the map, but it honestly works quite well.

 

It reminds me a lot of some of the Ultima games. Ultima V and VI (and maybe some more, I can't remember) had single, seamless maps where on one screen a house takes up the whole view, move south fifteen steps and suddenly the scale has "changed" and there are five mountains onscreen. This may not be a coincidence - I think I remember Jeff citing Ultima as a major influence on Exile.

[Dikiyoba]

I was actually disappointed to see that Avernum 4 is more like Geneforge, since I liked the worlds being distinct. Oh well. As soon as the Windows version is out, I will try it anyway and will probably enjoy it.

 

Don't worry. Dikiyoba will live.

[Lattan]

They're going to end up uniting the two worlds, sad as that may be. Seriously, they keep on sharing graphics, and today I had a dialogue where a Vahnatai told me he was not a Shaper. Capitalized, and without mention of crystals. You'd think that JV would start to avoid stuff like that after these silly conspiracies start floating around unless they're true.

 

Okay, maybe not. But they really ought to keep the graphics distinct even if the engines aren't.

[Lilith]

Vahnatai spellcasters have been called Shapers ever since Exile 2.

[Lattan]

I never played Exile. In Avernum 2, they were indeed called shapers, but I'm pretty sure it was lowercase. Plus, as I mentioned, JV should avoid such things unless he's actually going to unite the worlds. Which would suck.

[Aoslare]

The shared graphics are admittedly a little creepy. Drayks and drakes are one thing, but chitrachs are definitely not clawbugs, and replacing 2/3 of the equipment with Geneforge equipment was also a bit much. IMHO.

[*i]

Yes, but to paraphrase Jeff Vogel: $$¢$¢¢$!!

[Xoid]

Quote:

Originally written by Skribbane now? Ask me how.:
What can you do in this rehased mess that Vogel dares to call a new game?

[LetheRunner]

Listen, all I have heard is negativity about this game on here--but it isn't a bad game at all. I certainly lament the loss of puzzles, but I don't agree that the plot has degraded from the other games. I enjoyed the story, just like I have enjoyed the stories from all the other mainline Avernum games. I liked most of the skill revisions which occurred and the most of the combat. What really irked me at times were some of the boss fights, namely Dorikas.

[*i]

The problem is the story was just too predictable. Aside from the Darkside Loyalist plot, we all had a good idea where things were going to go after Fort Draco. By the end of the demo, one would have to be pretty dense not to be able to predict exactly how the game is going to end.

 

I was hoping for a surprise, but I was not to be given that...

[Delicious Vlish]

I realised who did it the moment I saw a razordisk in the mines by Fort Draco.

 

I also knew who did it in Exile III the moment I found a waveblade in the Filth Factory. I saw the waveblade and thought "What's that doing here on the surface? I found some of those robe thingies too in Jordan's tower, and he must have found them in the slime's caves. JINKIES!" And from that moment on, I knew who did it.

 

I was really hoping that my early theory on who did it would have been correct... If anybody recalls, I was saying (hoping) that the Sliths had done it.

[Aoslare]

That would have been cool. Although somewhat odd, since the main slith kingdom is supposed to be peace-loving. ...or did that change from Ex to Av as well?

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
I realised who did it the moment I saw a razordisk in the mines by Fort Draco.

As soon as I saw a chitrach drop a piercing crystal and a razordisk in the Eastern Gallery, I knew it for sure. Before then, I had successfully fooled myself into thinking that the vahnatai were not the main enemy.

[Xoid]

I wouldn't have had a problem with Rentar being a few stubbies short of a six pack and causing problems, if it wasn't done so... predictably.

 

Assassinations, chemical warfare, guerilla warfare, an alliance with the Darkling Sliths, ANYTHING but what Jeff actually decided upon.

 

Avernum 4 is little more than the bastard love child of Avernum 1 or 2's setting, Avernum 3's lackluster plot, and Geneforge's engine.

 

EDIT 1:

Quote:

Originally written by Slartucker:

That would have been cool. Although somewhat odd, since the main slith kingdom is supposed to be peace-loving. ...or did that change from Ex to Av as well?

Za-Khazi Run is considered canon, even if everyone wished it never existed. Therefore, the barbaric army of Sss-Thss is still around, even if it was defeated previously.

 

EDIT 2:

I really thought that *i would want to slap me for taking a leaf out of TM's book and ramming words down someone else's throat through "quoting" them.

[*i]

Sss-Thssss' savage loyalists are alive and well (well until you get to them at least) in A4.

 

To those who haven't found them, take the tunnel in the chitrach forest in the northern part of the Great Cave and it will lead you into the lands of the dark Slithzerikai. Some nice items, but otherwise disappointing.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by SNM:

 

Quote:

They're going to end up uniting the two worlds, sad as that may be. Seriously, they keep on sharing graphics, and today I had a dialogue where a Vahnatai told me he was not a Shaper. Capitalized, and without mention of crystals. You'd think that JV would start to avoid stuff like that after these silly conspiracies start floating around unless they're true.

It's obvious. Most Shapers are going to end up using a few too many canisters, which will give them gray skin, bulbous eyes, a skeletel frame, an inability to survive in the sun, a love for crystals, and will flee underground, where they will call themselves Vahnatai. The only thing they will retain of their previous identity is the title "Shaper" for their wizards and dislike for common humans.

 

Shoali and the non-Shapers of the Shaper lands will meet up, evolve into one powerful society that takes over the entire surface of the planet and call their country the Empire.

 

Drakons will become dragons. Drayks will become drakes. Clawbugs will become chitratches. Battle alphas will become giants. Fyoras will become various annoying reptiles. Eyebeasts and gazers will become, well, eyebeasts and gazers. And giant rats will still be giant rats. Demon-summoning will become perfectly legal. Nephil and sliths will have been created by the Shapers/Vahnatai. Etc, etc.

 

Then the Empire will stumble upon the underground tunnels and say, "Hey, why don't we get rid of some annoying people?" You know the story from there.

 

Dikiyoba wonders where the other class of Vahnatai magicians, "Keepers," came from.

[*i]

The Keepers are most likely the keepers of the Vahnatai magical secrets. They seem to be a higher up in the magical ranks of the Vahnatai.

[Aoslare]

Oh, my god. PLEASE tell me the giants don't look like battle alphas.

 

I know the evil sliths are still around. However, Ex 1 + 2 made it clear that all the sliths in Exile were originally part of Sss-Thsss's clan/group/whatever, which was itself exiled from the main Slith kingdom because they were too violent. While there are many Sliths in Avernum, their power really doesn't seem to compare. They have never achieved more than a stalemate with Avernum's forces even though they pretty much fight just 2 forts at a time (Emerald and Dranlon), plus sometimes Cotra. Presumably, if Avernum could ignore all of its many other aggressors and concentrate entirely on the sliths, the sliths wouldn't last very long.

[Alorael at Large]

I think Shapers have always been capitalized in Exile/Avernum. Ponders, too. That's not a sign of impending unity. We still haven't accounted for the Vlish population. What happened to them in Avernum?

 

The giants don't look like battle alphas. They look like giants.

 

I, too, thought of the vahnatai when I saw the first signs of vahnatai, but I held onto the hope that it was going to be a clever twist, perhaps even a subtle and sarcastic joke and the poor plot of A3. When Darkside Loyalist signs started showing up, I felt those seeds of hope begin to flower. And then I ran into Rentar-Ihrno, and, well, that was that.

 

—Alorael, who isn't so sure about ZKR's canon status. Fort Cavalier and those sliths aren't mentioned anywhere else, nor is the new member of the Triad. In fact, Kelner in the Tower Colony seems to imply that the Triad disbanded after the ToM disaster in A3. He also claims that he was a member around then, though, so he's either senile or there was some time in between the disaster and the disbanding.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Two pipe solo:
We still haven't accounted for the Vlish population. What happened to them in Avernum?

Sea monsters.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Two pipe solo:
Alorael, who isn't so sure about ZKR's canon status. Fort Cavalier and those sliths aren't mentioned anywhere else

True, but the Second Slith War is definitely mentioned in A4. At least that part is fairly certain.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:

Quote:

Originally written by Two pipe solo:
We still haven't accounted for the Vlish population. What happened to them in Avernum?

Sea monsters.

Yeah. Squid like creatures. You get a couple of chances to read a brief description.

[Aoslare]

But what about the minotaurs? What happened to them?

[*i]

Unfortunately, the second Slith War turned out to be nothing more than a small skirmish. Could have had potential, but apparently not.

[wz. As]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:

Quote:

Originally written by Two pipe solo:
Alorael, who isn't so sure about ZKR's canon status. Fort Cavalier and those sliths aren't mentioned anywhere else

True, but the Second Slith War is definitely mentioned in A4. At least that part is fairly certain.

I'm not sure if you're acknowledging this or not, but the ZKR is definitely mentioned by name:

Quote:

z127silvardlg.txt
The second slith war?
"It was a small one, but nasty, not too long after Empress Prazac let the Avernites back onto the surface. I helped ferry supplies down the Za-Khazi Run, after some other adventurers cleared it out."

[Kelandon]

Oh, yes. I forgot about that. ZKR is definitely canon, even if it is a little hard to figure out how. Is there any way of knowing where Fort Goodling or Fort Cavalier are?

[Lord Sylak]

I wouldn't be suprised if Jeff did unite Geneforge and Exile/Avernum, a little pissed, but not suprised.

 

As to A4: correct me if somebody else has beatenthe game already, but i don't think in the end it will be the Vanthai who are the enemy, but somethign is controling the vantahi or is something else. And, I think the game is what the Geneforge engleine should have been: turn based 3D, not partial real-time, partial turnbased. Also, stop ragging on teh game because you don't like it. A4 will attract a new audience, thoose who want the ridculous 3D graphics and a bad plot.

 

as to Dikiyoba's Theory: Slith couldn't have been creationof the Vantahi, because they camefrom a diffrent world entirley, and were banished there, making them the only real aliens in the game. If you ever got to the one place, Old something in A/E or E2/A2, i forgot which one, then you'll get it.

 

Jeff should write a companion book to the games and sell it, just to confirm waht's canon and what's not.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Takeru Takashi:

 

Quote:

as to Dikiyoba's Theory: Slith couldn't have been creationof the Vantahi, because they camefrom a diffrent world entirley, and were banished there, making them the only real aliens in the game. If you ever got to the one place, Old something in A/E or E2/A2, i forgot which one, then you'll get it.

It must have been E1/A1, since I've played A2. Try Bahssikava for BoA. The whole scenario is Slith history. As for my "theory," it wasn't intended to be serious. Seriously.

 

Dikiyoba

[Aoslare]

Every new game and every change to the basic Spidweb engine(s) brings with it a load of complaints. That's a pattern you'll find everywhere else in the world, too; and change is usually good despite the complaints. But I guess things are a little different here since Spidweb's earliest successes were no-frills products founded on old-fashioned gameplay and interesting stories, and spurning fancy graphics. Exile vs. Realmz seemed to many like David vs. Goliath, but Exile got a lot of support from that conflict, especially as it grew more refined.

 

Quote:

Slith couldn't have been creationof the Vantahi, because they camefrom a diffrent world entirley, and were banished there, making them the only real aliens in the game.

If by different world entirely, you just mean another set of caves, deeper in the earth, and warmer. Certainly that's all that was said in Exile 1 or 2...

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Takeru Takashi:
correct me if somebody else has beatenthe game already

Um, I can name at least half a dozen people on these boards (including myself) who have finished it already.

Quote:

Slith couldn't have been creationof the Vantahi, because they camefrom a diffrent world entirley, and were banished there, making them the only real aliens in the game. If you ever got to the one place, Old something in A/E or E2/A2, i forgot which one, then you'll get it.

I assume you're referring to Lost Bahssikava in A1, one of the few things that wasn't in E1. As Slartucker pointed out, sliths aren't from "another world"; they're from deeper in the caves. I'm pretty sure both sliths in Gnass and sliths in LB say so, but I know that Sss-Bahss in LB says so.

[Alorael at Large]

The vahnatai did it!

 

—Alorael, who supports vahnatai creationism as a good way to spark useless debates.

[Istara]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
I was actually disappointed to see that Avernum 4 is more like Geneforge, since I liked the worlds being distinct.

You know what - I worried about this at first, when hearing the GF enging was going to be used.

But really, the setting is totally Avernum. You don't feel Geneforgey in the least. All the names, the monsters, even the colour scheme. You won't be disappointed.

[Aoslare]

Vahnatai creationism?!?!?

[Aran]

It makes more sense than the flat earth theory, and that finds plenty of followers... o_O

[archangel_14]

alright...so, im one of those people who likes the games to be separate. i like geneforge, and i like avernum...but i dont want one unified type of gameplay. whats with the geneforge graphics in the game though? the avernum characters were already cool. and whats up with only having two options for nephilim and the slith? racism...hahaha. j/k.

 

*what is with barely being able to move during fight mode? it was much better when you at least had some mobility. its worse than geneforge and avernum.

*what is with not having a character editor? yes, its cheating, but it speeds things up, and it was an option that was enjoyed in avernum. everyone knows its kinda cool to have a "god" party.

*i actually liked the separation of towns and the world map, things might not have flowed as well, but the space wasnt so full.

*the availabilty of good armor, weapons, spells...etc, at least in the beginning, is virtually nonexistent.

*it takes forever to replenish health/spell energy (or it doesnt happen at all, i was too involved to check it out for sure) in avernum and even geneforge (cant remember for sure) if you walked around you gradually recharged.

*like everyone has said, the story is a little weak. (ive only played through the demo, but im pretty sure i dont really need to play further)

 

ok...so there was the bad...here is the really cool and good

 

*not having to replenish arrows is awesome, and the automatic healing/spell energy walking into the town is cool.

*the flowing map IS cool...even if its kind of a pain at times. the graphics are cool.

*its harder, which is a good thing.

 

basically...i dont see a need to buy this one.

[Aoslare]

"*what is with barely being able to move during fight mode?"

 

Huh? In previous games, you could move four squares or move three and attack. In Avernum 4, you can move eight squares or move three and attack. How is that less mobility?

 

I guess there is the 'slowing' effect, but that's only significantly worse than the free attack your enemies got in previous games if you are significantly stronger than your enemies, in which case, who care.s

[archangel_14]

i guess it just seems slower for some reason...lol.

[Alorael at Large]

Compare A4 to A1 or A2 and you can see that relatively good gear is available quickly. Only A3 made powerful items trivially easy to obtain from the very beginning.

 

In Avernum health regenerates slowly in towns and energy does not, but both health and energy regenerate quickly outdoors. In Geneforge, the only way to regenerate is to enter a town. In A4 you regain your health and energy by entering a town or by killing monsters, which turns into health and energy depending on your First Aid skill.

 

—Alorael, who was able to go indefinitely without visiting towns by midway through the game. First Aid makes long crawls through dungeons a matter of minimal terror.