A4 - The New Geneforge?

[Venom]

From the screenshots that I've seen of Avernum 4 so far, I've noticed a striking resemblance to the Geneforge series. The characters, the battle sequences, and the interface all look very similiar to Geneforge. Now Geneforge is a good game in its own right, but Avernum is based on Exile, which, in my opinion, is the best series this company has yet to produce. A4 is certainly new and new features are expected, but if they are just becoming more like Geneforge, why not continue the Geneforge Series.

 

In light of this, and my undying ardor for E3, I am wondering what the support would be for an E4? This, of course, is entirely up to Spiderweb Software, but I'd be interested to know if there are many who feel as I do: that Avernum has been melded too much with Geneforge and that a revision to the past world of Exile would be a positive change. I'd invite your opinions.

[Poit]

I've always been a big fan of the Exile and Avernum engines but realistically I think they've going to die a slow death as they get bypassed by the engine advances in Avernum 4.

 

Realistically they'res almost zero chance of an Exile 4 ever being produced. As Spiderweb is run for profit I can't see them artificially prolonging the life of an outdated game engine just for nostalgic reasons. Also bear in mind that no matter how many people post here and say they would buy it if released, we are only a small slice of dedicated Spiderweb gamers and our opinions don't count for much in particular. Mainly as we're the type of "loyal" fans who will buy Spiderweb products regardless of content.

[Alorael at Large]

You're basing your analysis on a few screenshots. Yes, the graphics are more like Geneforge. The game engine itself borrows a little bit from Geneforge, but it plays very much like Avernum. I didn't like Geneforge all that much for engine reasons, and I think A4 is just fine.

 

—Alorael, who would in fact say that A4 strikes a balance between Geneforge and Avernum that is close to optimal. The graphics are much prettier, the movement is still entirely turn-based and nice, and combat is more tactically interesting and challenging than Avernum's.

[Dallerdin with a custom moniker.]

Alorael! To think that you would stoop to using such foul methods as double posting to increase your own post count!

 

...yeah, yeah, I know. Accidental.

[Icshi]

Accidental? Bah! He's nearing the big 10000 and getting compulsively desperate. I bet he was foaming at the mouth as he frantically typed it, then typed it up again.

[Alorael at Large]

There is no double post here.

 

—Alorael, who did not just delete it and then post again.

[Student of Trinity]

Better be careful, Alorael. Power corrupts. You could end up snorting skribbane and sniping at pedestrians.

[Lilith]

Now, now. It's common knowledge that Alorael drinks skribbane.

[Ephesos]

I thought he just took skribbane intravenously...

[Alorael at Large]

That's crass and uncultured. Proper skribbane must be properly prepared and guzzled in the manner dictated by polite society.

 

—Alorael, who must be slipping if people can get that wrong after more than a year. Only zombies in Gale chew skribbane, nobody injects it, and nobody tries to smoke it twice.

[Student of Trinity]

If conscience pangs over random sniping do not daunt our haughty magistrates, perhaps the dread of sinking to improper consumption of skribbane will give them pause. It's not like we have a lot of other checks and balances around here. How can despotism be tempered by epigrams when the despots can just delete them?

[Alorael at Large]

You can always appeal to the higher power of Linda. It's an option.

 

—Alorael, who promises never to delete any epigrams. He'll snipe the perpetrators, but an epigram is forever.

[Dark Mage]

Both engines has their advantages, Geneforge engine is prettier, but it have no outdoors and the world is completely flat.

Avernum engine is more simple but i like it more, it has elevation, the screen view is larger, etc.

I think that A4 should be a mix of both, well maybe it is already, but A4 have geneforge graphics...I like more the avernum graphics, and now the world is flat again...but the idea of a full world without zones is quite interesting, but still the game lose the touching outdoors feeling.

[Chief Spider watching The Simpsons]

I just hope it doesn't go too much like Geneforge. I've already seen the screenshots and the characters/monsters seem so bulky and just... retarded. I played the Geneforge demo a couple of times, and I HATED it.

 

That's my two cents.

[Alorael at Large]

I have a new pet peeve: people who see Geneforge graphics and decide that A4 must be just like Geneforge. It really, really isn't.

 

—Alorael, who also doesn't understand how anyone can like the Avernum graphics more than the Geneforge ones. Avernums 1, 2, and 3 are great games, but they are graphically apalling. Geneforge actually has monsters that can be distinguished from one another.

[Icshi]

I've always loved the Avernum graphics. And I've never had trouble telling the monsters apart.

 

I like smaller graphics, for one thing, less smooth and less hyper-realistic. Leaves more to the imagination, I think. I like feeling that I'm looking at a color drawing rather than a bunch of computer graphics. I guess I'm just terribly old-fashioned.

 

And the elevation in Avernum was one of its finest points. I hate the flatness of Geneforge.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Icshi:
I like smaller graphics, for one thing, less smooth and less hyper-realistic. Leaves more to the imagination, I think. I like feeling that I'm looking at a color drawing rather than a bunch of computer graphics. I guess I'm just terribly old-fashioned.

See, lots of us agree with the general sentiment, but think that Exile's graphics were leaps and bounds above Avernum's in that respect. When graphics can't be meaningfully distinguished from stick figures, there's something wrong.

[Kelandon]

I think it is telling that the town that I remember most in the AT, at least on a visual level, is the top floor of the Empire Archives, with the frozen floors. Give me colors, but exquisite details are not necessary.

 

Also, the most beautiful towns in BoA all make extensive use of hills.

 

That said, the graphics that are finally filtering in to replace the gross temp beta graphics are pretty nice. I think A4 will look not half bad.

[VCH]

It looks perfect to me. I just want to see a screenshot using the actual char graphics not Mr. Shaper(s).

[Holymonkey]

I kinda didn't like Geneforge...the whole combat system felt too weird for me(melee = next to useless) I hope A4 has only the Geneforge style graphics and not stuff like the AP restrictions(can't do anything unless you have enough AP)

[Alorael at Large]

Combat is closer to Geneforge than to Avernum. It took some adjustment, but I've come to like it. Fighting requires a little more tactical thinking and a little less charging and hacking now.

 

—Alorael, who is happy to say that melee is far from useless, although trying to play with melee only is definitely a tough proposition.

[Delicious Vlish]

My issue with melee, and this is true in many games, and not specific to AIV...

 

In melee you kill one critter at a time. And this is fine and good if there is only one critter.

 

This is simply not the case most of the time.

 

Which is why magic appeals so much to me in these games. It's why I fell in love with the Agent in Geneforge.

 

When Geneforge first came out, people said the Agent was the weakest class. The Shaper and the Guardian were the top dogs.

 

My first Agent was a failure. So was my second and my third.

 

I built several prototypes, all of them failures because they either focused on melee or shaping to get through the rough spots at the beginning of the game where everybody said the Agent sucked.

 

So I played the Agent like an Agent and I just toughed out the first few levels. And things got better. And then I discovered that the Agent could fire off Searing Orbs that would do well over 200 damage... But only if you built them right.

 

And the glass cannon Agent was born. Perfected in G2.

 

And that is my problem with melee in general now. It's tedious having to kill everything just one or two at a time when I know that if I wanted to, I could obliterate everything and leave a little smoking pile of ashes. Once you do this, you can't undo it. The cat is out of the bag and you can't go back to slugging out big fights one at a time.

 

AIV rocks. I can't wait till I can actually talk about the game in detail.

[Icshi]

I prefer melee to distance attacks. It's much more satisfying!

[Holymonkey]

Quote:

Originally written by Smoking Mirrors:
Combat is closer to Geneforge than to Avernum. It took some adjustment, but I've come to like it. Fighting requires a little more tactical thinking and a little less charging and hacking now.

—Alorael, who is happy to say that melee is far from useless, although trying to play with melee only is definitely a tough proposition.

Darn. I really didn't like how my Guardian in Geneforge could be owned by a single slow spell. I mean I just had enough AP to run up to the casters and hit them once before they'd retreat a bit. But with slow, every other round I can't even attack if they were right beside me. Nevermind having to chase them around too .

[Kelandon]

I think that Jeff expects people to go with two melee fighters and two spellcasters, which has made my one melee fighter, one bowman, and two spellcasters considerably more effective. I'm trying out the "meat shield plus three ranged attackers" method, and so far I like it.

 

The new death system makes this even more effective, since if my meat shield dies, I can escape with the rest of my party intact.

[Alorael at Large]

Slow is still crippling as it's meant to be, but remember that you have a party of four now (unless you're playing a singleton). That makes slow less painful, and another adjustment also keeps battles from becoming absurd circular chases.

 

—Alorael, who will also add that if you think getting slowed is bad, try slowing your enemies. Sure, a lot of the time they can haste themselves and each other, but when they can't you can cripple supposedly powerful enemies.

[Tony Zbaraschuk]

Plus if they're casting haste on each other, they aren't casting nasty spells on you...

[Timber-Wolf]

Quote:

Originally written by Tony Zbaraschuk:
Plus if they're casting haste on each other, they aren't casting nasty spells on you...

Just that in the next turn they are casting two nasty spells on you

Im really disapointed Jeff has removed elevation, all the towns in geneforge all looked crap, especially when you compare it to something like emerald mountain, walking into a fort and seeing the fortifications is much better then just walking into a giant building.

[Venom]

So, from what Alorael has said, the engine plays more like Geneforge than ever. I assume you are a beta-tester, to have access to such information. Unfortunately, I hated the combat in Geneforge more than anything else. With so few attacks, it was very easy to come up with a combinated that worked. Every time. After that, the only time I had to change was when I met exceptionally difficult enemies and then I would have to retreat to replenish health. I could never come up with anything better.

 

In Exile III, and in earlier Avernum games to a lesser extent, there was so much flexibility in fighting style. With so many spells to choose from, and a wide variety of melee and missile weapons, combat almost never got boring. Once the number of spells decreased and the weapons became more specialised, combat did not involve careful selection of equipment. Instead, it was either you had powerful enough stuff or you didn't. To me, that determined much of the combat in Geneforge. It wasn't about the actual combat, but what you had to "get" beforehand to win. That cheapened the eventual conflict, for you already knew you had what it took.

 

Also, the graphics in E3 were far more preferable than Geneforge's. As mentioned before, the smoothness and "hyper-realism" detracts from gameplay. I prefer to concentrate on the tactics of the fight, rather than seeing a Cryoa bend forward and shoot pretty lights at me. Avernum's graphics I enjoyed as well, though, for they seemed to strike a bit of a balance between Exile and Geneforge. Semi-3D, but not much in the way of animation.

[Alorael at Large]

I disagree about the graphics. Geneforge and A4 aren't realistic, they're recognizable. I'll accept that 2D Exile or 3D Geneforge is a matter of taste, but Avernum is just poor in the graphics department.

 

Combat engine, spells, and equipment are not the same. As Drakey has said, A4 does not have the Geneforge spell system, and it doesn't really have Avernum's system either. It's closer to Exile, but it's still different. There are definitely choices to be made on which spell to cast, and even bigger decisions on which weapons to use, and whether to use melee or missile attacks. A4 has been more of a tactical challenge than any Avernum or Geneforge game (although I never got far in Geneforge).

 

[Edit: Take a look at this topic . The bottom of the first page and the rest are about tactics in A4.]

 

—Alorael, who won't claim that average enemies require tactics. Hacking and blasting will take care of most of what you have to fight. The difficult battles are, well, difficult, and picking the wrong way to fight can make them nearly impossible. Picking the right way to fight can make them manageable.

[Synergy]

My first party was a melee fighter, a pole fighter, a mage, and a priest, with one specializing in tool use and one in archery. All had competent levels of archery which is fairly easy to achieve. Significant amounts of ranged attacking is useful to essential in A4. Melee combat does feel much more challenging. I remember at the end of A3, my pole fighter alone could take out an alien beast with one or two strikes and same with my swordsman. At no point in A4 did anyone feel overpowered. Quite the opposite in fact. You will have to highly specialize hand-fighters to really make them powerful fighters. It will require a sacrifice of other stats you might not want to skimp on normally.

[*i]

The combat in Avernum 4 is still turn based, although it has a Geneforge flavor of having a minimum number of AP to attack or cast a spell. I personally like the new system a little better.

[Kelandon]

I liked Avernum's graphics better than Exile's or GF's. I actually really liked Nethergate's graphics, and the stuff from A1-3. A4 fits somewhere around Exile for me in terms of preference, but far ahead of GF.

[Horus]

The main gripe I have (forum seeing the screenshots), is the fact that the Interface has been changed (ie the Character and map bit are now on the left. rather than back in Av1, Av2, Av3 when it was on the right).

 

I believe it was also on the left in Blades of Avernum... and I didn't like it then either, it put me off balance which isn't cool.

 

What is the perpose of changing the interface layout anyways, when the past 3 games had a suitable one before?

 

And now on to Av4 graphics... they are still sprite based like Geneforge, what is the perpose of saying that it's a new engine when it's just the same as the last games except with large sprites with less detail (original Avernum sprites had sooo much character compared to Geneforge which seemed very bland by comparison).

[Kelandon]

The engine is different. The graphics are in a similar format, though.

[Alorael at Large]

I didn't even really process the fact that the screen layout is different. It doesn't bother me. The thing that confuses me now is that small stalagmites are passable in A1-3 and impassable in A4, but that's life.

 

If you read the A4 threads, you will see some of the critical differences between A4 and previous Avernums and between A4 and Geneforge. It's a very different engine.

 

—Alorael, who is quite certain that the game would still have a different engine (and a remarkably different atmosphere) if all the graphics were replaced with two-dimensional stick figures.

[Igor]

I want stick-figure Avernum.

[VCH]

When was Kelandon given the title Blademaster?*

 

What's more do we need two of them? I believe there should be but one blademaster.

[Lilith]

Blademaster is an automatic title for any moderator. It shows up only for posts in forums which the moderator moderates, and only if the moderator doesn't have a custom title.

[VCH]

Oh sorry. how could I not know that.

[MagmaDragoon]

Quote:

Originally written by Venom:
From the screenshots that I've seen of Avernum 4 so far, I've noticed a striking resemblance to the Geneforge series. The characters, the battle sequences, and the interface all look very similiar to Geneforge. Now Geneforge is a good game in its own right, but Avernum is based on Exile, which, in my opinion, is the best series this company has yet to produce. A4 is certainly new and new features are expected, but if they are just becoming more like Geneforge, why not continue the Geneforge Series.

In light of this, and my undying ardor for E3, I am wondering what the support would be for an E4? This, of course, is entirely up to Spiderweb Software, but I'd be interested to know if there are many who feel as I do: that Avernum has been melded too much with Geneforge and that a revision to the past world of Exile would be a positive change. I'd invite your opinions.

Yes. I wanted to post that me too after saw A4... I had to say that because... No, I don't want to tell it. Not now.

[Ephesos]

Why did you revive a two-month old topic to say that you have something to say, but won't say it?!

 

The insanity! It burns!!!

[Kelandon]

In case that wasn't clear: around here, it's generally considered polite to not to post in old topics (say, at least a week old) unless you have something genuinely new and useful to say. I'm pretty sure that post doesn't qualify.

[VCH]

Oh I don't know. The post was somewhat entertaining, in that it made no sense.