Zeviz

I think Greta is an example of why you don't see rebellious agents: agents are special forces of the Shaper society, so their training requires them to display even more loyalty than regular shapers. Agents that show any indication that they might rebel are kicked out, as happened with Greta. Quote: Originally written by Delicious Vlish: ... And they would know that canister usage would lead to them having an accident somewhere some time. No "accident" befalls canister-using loyalist PC in Gf1 or Gf2. The only negative in those endings is that you are isolated, but it's hard to be friendly with an arrogant, exessively powerful person who glows in the dark.

In that case would Thahd Shade make better defender than any other battle creation? (If nobody can hit it, you don't even have to heal it.) Or does it cost so much essence to max out dexterity that you might as well make 2 Battle Betas instead?

Puzzle games are fun. Irrelevant puzzles that pop up in the middle of an RPG aren't. Especially if the puzzle is either poorly connected to what my character is supposedly doing (like asking player to arrange genes in a pattern when the character is casting a spell), or so hard that I have to go online for answers (like puzzles in some BoE scenarios). The "find notes that you show to person A, who gives you instructions that can only be deciphered with help of person B, whom you have to find in a dangerous remote area" kind of puzzles work better in RPGs if done well. However, if done poorly these can also get quite tedious. As for randomness in a game, any random elements have to be decided at the start of the game, to avoid save/reload problem. So each game would be unique, while each reload within a given game would produce same result.

Quote: Originally written by VCH: Agents are just far too powerful, as many people claim, to allow more than a few to wander unsupervised. This just means there are even more hidden super-agents watching the agents. And even more rare and powerful super-super-agents watching the super-agents. And ...

A2 is the best. A4 is the worst. (Unless you prefer Diablo to Baldur's Gate.) BoA could be great, or just ok, depending on how good the scenarios are. You can find out about BoA scenarios here: http://pub15.ezboard.com/fthelyceumfrm32

Talking about meat shields, is it true that maxing out Thahd Shade's dexterity makes it almost impossible for anything to hit it?

Quote: Originally written by Corny Cheese: I have just started playing Geneforge 3 and was at the Refuge on Greenwood Island and I was just wondering if everybody kills all hte guards and people to get the stuff in their rooms? When playing as a rebel or a loyalis - no. When playing as a munchikin - yes. ("Munchikin" is a term for players whose goal is to make their characters as powerful as possible.) Quote: Originally written by Delicious Vlish: Quote: Originally written by Waylander: 'Innocent' is such a subjective term. Those in those Refuge admit to being hostile to Shaper rule. They border on being rebels. A loyal Shaper has only one choice, and that it to wipe them out. This is true from a role playing point of view. A loyalist shaper would exterminate them for expressing contrary opinion. The same way that any real loyalist would destroy Lankan at first meeting, for being contaminated by evil and rebelling. "You dare question a shaper?! You must die now!" ... That's not true about the Shapers as presented in the game. Lankan's crime was attacking a Shaper, and even in his case death penalty isn't the only option. Plenty of characters in the games (including a lot of opinion-asking characters) openly express their dislike for either some Shaper actions or Shapers in general. As for people in the refuge, one of the questions you can ask is "are there criminals here", which implies that just living in the Refuge (and expressing opinions bordering on rebellion) isn't a crime. Quote: Originally written by Dxtrgrtba: ... Dikiyoba thinks that perhaps there will be a total of six Geneforges. Two have Shapers for intro graphics, two will have Agents, and two will have Guardians. Since Jeff implied more character classes in G4, this method will leave room for about 10 Geneforges. And by then we'll have even more character classes, so even more will have to be made, and Geneforges will be spreading like canisters.

The honesty and morality reputations remind me of DnD allignments. Honesty is Lawful - Chaotic dimension and morality is Good - Evil dimension. I don't think I've seen the corresponding behaviors codified into the engine before, but it might work. As for having 5 or more separate reputation types, unless you are going to make social interaction a major part of your scenario (and make the scenario sufficiently large), it's going to feel like an overkill. In a smaller scenario it might be easier to just keep track of how well-liked you are by each major character/faction.

Quote: Originally written by eastonb: ...Followup question: Can I order the games to download rather than ordering a CD and paying shipping costs? I have a fast internet connection, so the size of the games wouldn't be an issue for me, but I could see them not wanting to sell the games that way since it might consume a lot of bandwidth for them. You can download the games and ask for registration codes (see order form for details). However, shipping cost (in the US) is only 2$, so it's not that expensive to just get a CD and not worry about having to backup your registration.

Quote: Originally written by Delicious Vlish: In all reality, the Awakened are just Takers with sweeter words and empty promises... With very strong Shaper tendencies to enslave other creatures. ... Awakened are a group of serviles supported by a single Shaper, who is mainly conserned by his own experiments. (Tuldarik even abandons Barrier of Wind, requiring your help to complete it.) How would they manage to "enslave" a single Drakon, when even Dryaks were deemed to independent for skilled Shapers to control? And how do they "enslave" a whole army of creatures each of whom could destroy a significant portion of their army and is at least as intelligent as they are? Quote: ... They speak a great deal of peace and bartering, but are preparing an army to take what they need by force. At least the Rebels are more open about what they want and don't try to hide their real agenda under a thin veil of pretty words. The Awakened ending of G2 makes it very clear that they fight only as much as necessary to defend their home. They never attempt to conquer any territory outside their valley and accept all cease-fire offers. Rebels and Takers are explicitly trying to destroy all Shapers. I don't think finding a remote valley to live in and defending it is as bad as trying to wipe out all Shapers and everybody who supports them.

Playing a game or studying for finals ... Studying for finals or playing a game ... I wonder which option is more appealing. Considering that procrastination causes people to do unusual things like cleaning their rooms and picking up old hobbies, I don't think playing a game is that unusual.

Quote: Originally written by Little Billy Sue: Wow. This is a great idea. Jeff could even release it as a patch. (Yes, Jeff. A patch. Don't be scared. It won't hurt you.) ... The chance of Jeff putting this kind of balance tweaks into a patch is exactly 0%. However, Slarty could make his own mod, by zipping up all modified files. Talking about mods, what happened to the idea of scripting in extra quests and changing some dialogue that I've heard floating around during the G1 editor craze? Did anybody ever do a mod that was more involved than just an editor?

Quote: Originally written by Spidweb: I think that the dialogue option choices worked reasonably well, but I have removed them entirely from Geneforge 4. Now everything faction-wise is determined by what quests you decide to complete or how you complete them. I have my worries about the new system, but I think it'll be a bit more interesting overall. - Jeff Vogel Sounds good. If the view of the world is even bleaker than that of Gf3, I might still not buy it (the whole RL is bad enough without RPing a dystopia thing), but I will dislike it less if my character isn't forced to act like a snob if he wants to save the area from monsters. I am not saying that I would only play a "heroes save the world" kind of game, but I'd like an option of a more sane group, even if the best ending only allows that group to get a bit of land to survive on (or even simply escape into exile and thrive there). Quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: On the other hand, the games are by no means blind to the desirability of better options. You have to join a side in order to finish G3, but staying true enough to your side in order to win just means completing a few key actions. It is perfectly possible, for instance, to eliminate most of the rogues in the game while playing as a Rebel; and you can help the most sympathetic rebels while playing as a Loyalist. The game works fine, for me, if my character is a reluctant Loyalist or wavering Rebel. The idea of "role playing" is to play a role, seeing the world through your character's eyes. While what you suggest is perfectly viable way to play the game, it makes no sence from your character's point of view: you kill most rogues, but then help their creators re-create them. It would be similar to joinin Wermaht in WW2, helping win several major battles, and then assasinating Hitler, because you were supporting Stalin all along. As long as your final action in the game is to support the Rebels, you are helping the creation of rogue invasions throughout Shaper lands, regardless of what you do to the rogues on your own islands. EDIT: About conversation options, I am not against them in general, in fact I liked them in early games. I just disliked the fact that in some cases the only available responces were too extreme and even if acceptable, they would forse you into the side opposite from your actions. I guess I just gave up on the game before finding people like Khyryk.

Quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: Maybe I'm forgetting some of the plot; what I recall is that there are lots of opportunities for evil things, but the only people you really have to kill are leaders committed to one cause or the other, and that would seem to fall under the RPG version of 'just war' theory. It's true that both sides have their objectionable points, but both sides can also be interpreted as pursuing just goals by necessary means. And G1 and G2 were both like that, too. G1 and G2 had Awakened, whose policy was to do the minimal amount of violence nesessary to survive. In G3 your choise is between a tyrannical Shaper regime which is portrayed in a very negative light and the power-hungry rebel group whose tactic is to kill innocent bystanders just to steer things up. Quote: Is it that you feel there are morally superior choices available within the G3 circumstances, which the game arbitrarily denies to you as options? Or is it that you want the game to be a fantasy of morality as well as of magic, where circumstances never force you to choose among evils, but always include a purely good alternative? If we are compairing things to real world, then it's G3 which is unrealistic in the black and black worldview it presents. It portrays the sides so starkly that your only options look like a choise between joining SS or KGB. I think you'll agree that people like Hitler and Stalin aren't the only leaders in the real world and there are few situations in which the only paths available lead to genocide (pro-Shaper ending of G2), or world war to gain personal power (Taker ending of G2). EDIT: As for the possible morally superior choices besides Awakened, what about Shaper-like group without the whole "lick my boots, slave" thing (magic has to be controlled, but that doesn't give us the right to treat people like slaves). And/or a rebel group that is more careful in its methods and whose goal was removal of shaper tyranny with as few casualties as possible, rather than "teh powar!!!111" by any means. EDIT2 [in responce to DV's post below]: You've just completely spoiled Geneforge for me. There are enough moral ambiguities in the real world to not have to also worry about them in computer games. I play games to have fun, rather than to deal with situations that are even worse than RL.

This is actually one of the reason I abandoned Gf3 after Dhonal's island. I found myself stuck, because I was giving reasonable (usually pro-servile, or neutral) opinions, while doing loyalist quests. I know that Jeff is trying to make a point that "war is hell", but he does a good job of making both sides so repulsive that I don't want to join either of them. Neither the "lick my boots, slaves" Shapers, nor the "let's fill the land with monsters that kill any innocent villager they catch and prevent villagers from earning a living just to prove our point" Rebels look like an acceptable choice for a decent character.

With living tools, you don't really "have to" use them anywhere. Most of the locked doors contain just treasure that you can live without. So you can use them anywhere you want. If you find all doors requiring a lot of living tools, it's time to boost your mechanics skill. You could even skip all locked doors until later and come back with more mechanics. There are also some doors that you aren't supposed to unlock. Such doors can be unlocked only by spending 5-10 living tools. If that is the case, the door isn't really supposed to be unlocked that way and should be unlocked by a key you find, or by talking to some character. So if you want to save living tools it's a good idea to talk to everybody in town and do their quests before you start unlocking heavily locked doors.

Quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: ... If not, what would it take to make a squad leader? Playing on easier difficulty level. More seriously, effective builds depend on difficulty and what game you are talking about. I suspect that abusing Parry in Gf2 would let you use any guardian you want, as long as you had 15+ Parry and used the Guardian as a bait, while your creation(s) held back and used ranged attack. Similarly with difficulty levels, a build that is good for Torment, might be less effective on Normal or Easy. (If every weak Fyora can kill an enemy in 1 hit, a swarm of weak creatures is more effective than a couple of strong ones, because there is no bonus for overkill.) Similarly, stunning is less effective on normal difficulty, because it's easier to just kill an enemy faster using a more damaging creation than to stun them using a Vlish.

Quote: Originally written by Mike Montgomery: Some of the walkthroughs and posts indicate that a custom starting party is always best. The logic here is that though the preconstructed classes would take more skill points to build, there are many things you would leave out in a custom build. ... If I am not mistaken, earlier Avernums imposed less of a skillpoint penalty on custom classes and included more random skills (like completely useless First Aid of earlier Avernums), so the advice to always go with custom might be a holdover from those games.

Quote: Originally written by Mike Montgomery: Some of the walkthroughs and posts indicate that a custom starting party is always best. The logic here is that though the preconstructed classes would take more skill points to build, there are many things you would leave out in a custom build. ... If I am not mistaken, earlier Avernums imposed less of a skillpoint penalty on custom classes and included more random skills (like completely useless First Aid of earlier Avernums), so the advice to always go with custom might be a holdover from those games.

I prefer Shapers, because they fit best to the theme of the game. Every RPG has fighters and mages, but the idea of magically creating your own army is unique to Geneforge. (I am sure it's been done before, but I haven't seen it in any other game.)

If you are talking about mundane items, the only quest items are Herbs and Shaper Tools. So you can sell things like Iron Bars and Paper. There are a couple quests that require use of common items like hammer or tea cup, but those items are freely available everywhere, so you don't need to save them ahead of time. As for forging ingredients, check Schrodinger's faq ( http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/game/928999.html ) for recepies. Or just keep a couple copies of each unusual item and largely ignore forging early on.

This is an interesting idea. I am surprised your shaper was better than guardian, sonce missiles are supposed to be guardian's specialty. How does this build compare to [my favorite] deadweight shaper? If you didn't invest into missiles and dexterity, you would be able to buy several more levels of intelligence, making your creation army even stronger. And instead of using equipment that boosts your combat skills, you could be using equipment that boosts your creation stats, further improving your creation army. Is the sacrifice in the stats of your 5 creations worth the benefit of becoming a good missile user yourself?

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: But would it make a good Avernum-style game? One possibility is, as *i pointed out, a game that is a combination of a large number of unrelated quests. Another option is to have a storyline focused primarily on character development (soldiers in training, travellers trying to get somewhere, etc.) Such a game would probably be very linear, but could still make a good BoE scenario. (I had a scenario like this planned before I lost interest in BoE again.)

Quote: Originally written by Miya: I seem to play GF a bit differently than most in the sense that my combat style mixes the classes. My Agent relies on melee more than magic, but uses magic for tough battles. And, of course, my Agent always has two Drayks with her. This works well for me, and I usually end up stronger than if I made a magic based Agent. My Shaper is able to fight for her/himself, and is not reliant on the creations, though I always have a small pack following me around. My Shapers primary attack is melee, and magic is secondary. This has also worked very well for me. So, IMO, I'd like to keep the spells I'm familiar with open to all classes rather than specialized, as it restricts the player to more linier character choices. This also seems to be Jeff's favorite style of play, because he is opposed to idea of separate character classes with separate skill sets. Exile had no classes at all. Avernum had "classes" that differed only in the allocation of starting skill points. ("Custom" class could be used to re-create any other "class".) Geneforge has distinct classes, but your agent can still create any creation, your guardian can use any spell and your shaper can train in all combat skills.

Quote: Originally written by Little Billy Sue: Seeing as I have a desperate appetite for bits of Geneforge plot and that my copy of G1 has been screwed up majorly (I'm stuck in the Spirit City and can't move for some reason) could someone please tell me the Big Secret? By IM, maybe, to preserve its secrecy. The atmosphere of finally being able to enter a forgotten temple in a ruined city full of ghosts is probably as big as the secret itself. The last time this question came up, I've looked through the scripts to put the relevant bits together and posted it here: http://www.geocities.com/zeviz1/Geneforge_secret.html