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Theophilus

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Originally Posted By: Erasmus
*facepalm*
This thread is deserving of infinite facepalming, as this was on the homepage..

"What's Coming? We have officially announced our next, all-new game. Spiderweb Software's next adventure will be Avadon: The Black Fortress, a saga of battle and intrigue in a war-torn land. Be sure to take a look and to watch this space for more updates over the next few months. Avadon: The Black Fortress will be released in early 2011."

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Surely Theophilus already knows that Avadon is the upcoming. Perhaps he what he actually wanted to know what Avadon is. Is Avadon a sword? Is avadon a tree? Is Avadon a fort? Is Avadon a fish?

 

Answer: Avadon is a keep, the strongest or central tower of a castle.

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I don't believe the subtitle gives it away. Subtitles are rarely definitions of the main title.

 

Examples:

"Exile 2: Crystal Souls"

"Geneforge 4: Rebellion"

"The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess"

"Fallout: New Vegas"

"Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers"

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Originally Posted By: jecowa
I don't believe the subtitle gives it away. Subtitles are rarely definitions of the main title.

Examples:
"Exile 2: Crystal Souls"
"Geneforge 4: Rebellion"
"The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess"
"Fallout: New Vegas"
"Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers"
These arent definitions of the main title, but have to do with something IN it.
"Exile 2: Crystal Souls" - You had to rescue the crystal souls.
"Geneforge 4: Rebellion" - There is a rebellion going on.
"The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess" - Midna.
"Fallout: New Vegas" - That is where it is set.
"Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers" -There were two towers.

So Avadon : The Black Fortress has something to do with a fortress that is probably black.

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Ah, a good point. But you overlook a lot of classics, here, that tend to support my point exactly. For instance:

 

"Star Wars II: The Empire Strikes Back"

"Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan"

"Myst III: Click on Stuff"

"Monopoly: Go Around and Buy Up Streets"

"Darts: Throw Them at a Board"

"Spin the Bottle: Spin the Bottle"

 

 

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Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
"Star Wars II: The Empire Strikes Back"


Actually, ESB is Star Wars Episode V, not II. tongue

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Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
"Myst III: Click on Stuff"
You forgot the entire Monkey Island series. It all deserves the subtitle " Click on stuff".

For shame, SoT.

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Originally Posted By: Tirien
Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
"Myst III: Click on Stuff"
You forgot the entire Monkey Island series. It all deserves the subtitle " Click on stuff".
Why stop there? "Click on Stuff" is the defining feature of adventure games, just like "Type in Stuff" is the defining feature of interactive fiction.

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Want a rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle?

 

Subtitles are for the audience's benefit. Therefore they must be either informative or entertaining. Either way, it's cool.

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Up 'til part 4, they didn't need subtitles at all. then they thought it would be nice to put a very bland, uninformative one. Maybe just to break the monotony of 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

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Originally Posted By: Tirien
"Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers" -There were two towers.

Actually, there were a total of five towers. Officially, it's Orthanc and then either Minas Morgul or the Tower Cirith Ungol, but it could really be any two of the five.

Dikiyoba.

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I watched all three of the "Lord of the Rings" movies back-to-back. I found them kind of boring. I did enjoy the book "The Hobbit," though.

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Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Actually, there were a total of five towers.


Orthanc and Barad-Dur. You've stepped onto my home field. Congrats. You found my area of specialization. Oops. You stepped on a land mine. Now prepare to die.

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Well, the movie version makes Orthanc and Barad-Dur the official two towers, but Dikiyoba was referring to the book.

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Originally Posted By: Sage of Numenor
The Creator himself said so.

The Creator is known for BoE, not Lord of the Rings. tongue

Seriously, can you provide a source, please?

Dikiyoba will have to use Wikipedia for now, since Dikiyoba won't have access to the copy of The Two Towers with the introduction Dikiyoba is thinking of for a few more days.

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Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Seriously, can you provide a source, please?
Sage, you didnt provide a source. You just claimed he did it. That is not the same thing.

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I've always assumed the two towers were Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol, because those are the towers most featured in Books III and IV. But, as the Wikipedia page states, it could left ambiguous, perhaps even intentionally so.

 

Besides, "The Two Towers" rolls off the tongue much better than "The One That Doesn't Have Any Appendices Or A Prologue In It".

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Wikipedia gives a mess of justifications and towers, and it points to Tolkien illustrating the towers as Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

 

—Alorael, who is also fairly sure that Tolkien himself was inconsistent about giving Barad-dûr a definite article.

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...Must I quote Dikiyoba again?

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Seriously, can you provide a source, please?
Which means a link to the information.

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Originally Posted By: Sage of Numenor
How can I give a link to J.R.R. Tolkien, Artist and Illustrator?


a page number would do; a direct quote would be extra nice

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Wikipedia links to this and calls it "Tolkien's own cover design for The Two Towers":

032878-fc170.jpg

 

Here is a larger version of the image.

 

The tower on the left would seem to imply Minas Morgul AKA Minas Ithil "The Tower of the Moon." Although Minas Tirith is unambiguously white, and white is also the color of Saruman, Minas Ithil itself is described as silvery-white (at least originally). The real seller, for me, are the nine circles at the base of the tower, which must represent the nine rings of the nine Nazgul who used Minas Morgul as their headquarters.

 

This is lent further strength by what must be a Fell Beast (the winged steeds of the Nazgul) flying between the two towers. Minas Tirith is definitely not black. However, Orthanc and Barad-Dur were _both_ black towers. The pentagram over the black tower surely implies the use of magic -- but that could implicate either Sauron in Barad-Dur, OR Saruman in Orthanc.

 

I tip the scales toward Barad-Dur due to (1) the lines by the black tower door, which could suggest the bridge to the entrance of Barad-Dur; (2) the absence of anything representing the Circle of Isengard; and (3) the Fell Beast -- I don't think they were ever visited Orthanc in the books.

 

HOWEVER, Tolkien changed his mind frequently, especially in his letters; and he has stated that "The Two Towers" was his best attempt at making a name that covered both book 3 and book 4. If Orthanc is _not_ one of the Two Towers, it is difficult to see how that name covers book 3 at all.

 

In conclusion: I have no idea.

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Originally Posted By: Triumph
Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
"Star Wars II: The Empire Strikes Back"


Actually, ESB is Star Wars Episode V, not II. tongue


Triumph, you are indeed young. ESB was the second produced. Hard core Star Wars fans use the order of production.

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Using cover art is a bad idea. The publisher just grabs the closest image that matches the title. Tolkien complained for years about weird art that Ballantine used for the early paperback US editions of the LotR.

 

The cover you show Slarty looks more like Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon) on the left and Mians Anor (Tower of the Sun) on the right, the original names of Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith before Sauron's forces captured Minas Ithil. That makes the figures of the moon and sun over the two towers.

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'The Two Towers' is a dumb title, really. Orthanc and Minas Tirith are the two towers that feature prominently in the story, though there's really not all that much directly about either of them.

 

Within the world of the book, Minas Morgul is supposed to be a clear opposite number to Minas Tirith, but in the text it gets barely a page.

 

And it does seem weird to speak of any set of Middle Earth towers as 'the' towers, when Barad Dûr is so much built up as the one incomparable tower. And yet the story never reaches it at all.

 

The other option is Cirith Ungol, though the reader barely gets to see it in this volume. But none of the other towers is important either, except as a symbol for a large section of the plot. So I suppose in the end I'd vote for Orthanc and Cirith Ungol as the titular structures.

 

Ehhh. Maybe it would be hard to do better than 'The Two Towers' as a title for this middle volume, which is really one of the best middle volumes around, but still suffers from the inherent awkwardness of the role.

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer

The cover you show Slarty looks more like Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon) on the left and Mians Anor (Tower of the Sun) on the right, the original names of Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith before Sauron's forces captured Minas Ithil. That makes the figures of the moon and sun over the two towers.

The sign over the black tower is a pentagram (maybe you consider a pentagram as a mark of a sun, I don't know), and beneath it there's a symbol of a hand which is Isengard's symbol.

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Hmm, I didn't even notice the hand. If that was actually part of the original drawing, that would suggest Orthanc, but it looks unclear.

 

Randomizer, it is CLEARLY not Minas Tirith / Minas Anor. _That_ tower is unambiguously white, not black; is surrounded by a city, which is not depicted; is associated with the sun, which is not depicted; is not associated with magic or pentagrams, which are depicted; and is not associated with the hand symbol, which is depicted.

 

Really, making a haphazard assertion without providing any kind of evidence or reasoning is not helpful.

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Originally Posted By: Sage of Numenor
Hand drawn cover art by our dear author in person. That enough for you?
...wait, did you seriously imply here that Tolkien drew his own cover art? Almost never does an author design their own cover art (unless it's a graphic novel).

Originally Posted By: Randomizer
The cover you show Slarty looks more like Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon) on the left and Mians Anor (Tower of the Sun) on the right, the original names of Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith before Sauron's forces captured Minas Ithil. That makes the figures of the moon and sun over the two towers.
I was going to say that too... which supports my initial assertion.

Despite that, I still don't think cover art is a good indicator of what the title actually means.

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Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel
Originally Posted By: Sage of Numenor
Hand drawn cover art by our dear author in person. That enough for you?
...wait, did you seriously imply here that Tolkien drew his own cover art? Almost never does an author design their own cover art (unless it's a graphic novel).


almost never is an author J.R.R. Tolkien

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
The cover you show Slarty looks more like Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon) on the left and Mians Anor (Tower of the Sun) on the right, the original names of Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith before Sauron's forces captured Minas Ithil. That makes the figures of the moon and sun over the two towers.


And explain the key of Orthanc and the staff of Saruman in the drawing, then--If that's Minas Morgul.

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Looking at the larger drawing. The left tower has 9 rings at the bottom implying ringwraiths. The right tower does match the description of Orthanc with the top.

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