Fire or Magic Shaping

[DragonHighLord]

I made a lifecrafter and invested the initial skill points into the magic skills (mostly battle), I want to start investing into shaping so that my creations will be better, I am trying to decide whether to go with fire or magic or should I use both and raise each rather equally

[Dikiyoba]

Dikiyoba recommends both.

[Drayk Armitage]

Investing in shaping skills does not make a particularly big difference, beyond allowing you to make the more advanced creations. It's not bad, it's just not as useful as buying other skills, especially magic skills. (as a lifecrafter, you will likely get the most benefit out of blessing and mental magic.)

 

Strictly speaking the power option is probably to just raise magic shaping and eventually make wingbolts. Fire shaping does have good creations, though, especially the cryoa early and the drayk midgame. investing in both gives you more versatility early on, at the cost of a little power.

[Randomizer]

Besides at midgame you start getting shaping items so you can get before the end of the game 7 shaping levels without investing in the shaping skill.

[Gandalf the Purple]

Although if you invest solely in fire shaping to the neglect of all else, you can have insanely powerful croyas in the early parts of the game

[Nioca]

Raise magic shaping. Wingbolts are better than any other (stable) creation in the game, and, despite their frail appearance, can take a surprising amount of punishment before going down.

 

In fact, that seems to be a common vein in magic creations. Despite in-game claims that they're frail, every magic creation can hold its own when it comes to taking punishment. Heck, in GF3, I actually used Artilas as meatshields along with the usual acidic bombardment.

[Dikiyoba]

Yeah, I've ended up using a pair of vlish as meatshields in my latest run through. But it's nice to have a cryoa early in the game, as well some ranged attacks that aren't magic.

 

More importantly, your signature is hurting Dikiyoba's eyes, Nioca. Cease and desist with the bright green, at the very least.

[Gandalf the Purple]

I fnd that, when you invest in fire shaping like I said, a couple of kasshykk (i spelled it wrong, I know) meatshields and a couple of cryrodryaks make for a fairly impressive team, or, at least until you get drakons. The cryrodryaks hit with cold and the kasshykks magic, making a good combo.

[Ale193]

I had a guardian in G3 and was able to invest 7 points in both, in general fire creations have better melees than the magic creations and are a little more durable. I use a cryoa for the first half of the game and then switched to a artilla & vlish combo, and then ditched them for a single gazer with all my essence poured into it. I used my self as a melee tank with my Oozing blade, and my gazer mowed down the acid resistant rotgroths. (why do the all the cool creations have such hard to spell names??) Dont bother with battle shaping at all, only rotgroths are worth making.

[Xaiya]

It is definitely worth making one or two vlish when you can.

Also, the wingbolt is extremely useful.

 

Fyoras and Cryoas early on are good (they can even be useful towards the end if you shape one in the beginning and keep it in the end).

 

Drayks are a good thing to have in mid and late game.

[Randomizer]

Fire shaping tends to be cheaper in cost and a single drakon at the end can be helpful. In the mean time you can start with fyoras or a cryoa, then upgrade to dryaks when they become available.

[Gandalf the Purple]

A single drakon can be helpful, but a beefed up ur-drakon is nigh unstoppable.

[Janitorial Closet]

So, slightly off topic, as I am currently playing as a Servile, would it be worth it to get my magic shaping high enough to make wingbolts?

[Alorael at Large]

It's very helpful to be able to make a creation or two, but you can get enough items to boost your shaping skills that you don't need to invest any points. I usually do, but I don't play with absolute min-maxing in mind.

 

—Alorael, who also doesn't play on Torment. If you want to eke out every little bit of power from your skill points, you should probably refrain from boosting shaping. Otherwise, go ahead; it doesn't cost all that much.

[Janitorial Closet]

Okay, I think I'll bring up my magic shaping some, then. I don't powergame so it shouldn't annoy me too much. =)

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Alorael

It's very helpful to be able to make a creation or two, but you can get enough items to boost your shaping skills that you don't need to invest any points.

There's not all that many items that increase magic shaping in the first three chapters, though, so putting a point or two in is necessary if you want to get creations as early as possible.

Dikiyoba.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Janitorial Closet

So, slightly off topic, as I am currently playing as a Servile, would it be worth it to get my magic shaping high enough to make wingbolts?

It depends upon whether you help the Shapers. There are some items to help with shaping creations that will reduce the amount that you need.

[Sudanna]

In Nalyd's experience, Gazers beat Ur-Drakons hands-down, with or without buffs.

[Synergy]

Ur-Drakons daze foes. That can be quite useful.

 

-S-

[Drayk Armitage]

I thought ur-drakons slowed foes? Well, either way it's a great boon, and I think it does put ur-drakons ahead of gazers, in G4. In G2 and G3 though this was definitely not the case.

[Synergy]

Argh, I meant they stun, which slows you/causes you to lose AP.

 

-S-

[Drayk Armitage]

Stunning doesn't slow you -- slow and stun are totally distinct effects in Geneforge. Anyway, I think it is slow and not stun for the ur-drakon.

[Randomizer]

GF4 ur-drakons do slow and that is a definite advantage over gazers. I tested gazer, drakon, and war trall against the Titan and the drakon was the best.

[Synergy]

Gah, can't keep these games straight anymore. My brain hurts.

 

-S-

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Synergy

Gah, can't keep these games straight anymore. My brain hurts.

-S-

Have you tried removing it? Maybe you are getting the ogrish confusion and need a good thwacking.

[-x-OMEN-x-]

I must disagree with the wingbolt comment, If you bid a wingbolt against ONE of my Ur-Drakons then the wingbolt will be turned to ash. I recommend a full investment to level 20 fire shaping, which gives you nearly unstoppable Ur-Drakons. Though the eyebeast might be able to beat my Ur-Drakon, the eyebeast lost its power to stun in geneforge 4( or at least stun effectivly) thus giving Ur-Drakons the advantage since they seemed to have inherited it. I recommend fire shaping to the fullest. If your a lifecrafter that is.

[-x-OMEN-x-]

I must disagree with the wingbolt comment, If you bid a wingbolt against ONE of my Ur-Drakons then the wingbolt will be turned to ash. I recommend a full investment to level 20 fire shaping, which gives you nearly unstoppable Ur-Drakons. Though the eyebeast might be able to beat my Ur-Drakon, the eyebeast lost its power to stun in geneforge 4( or at least stun effectivly) thus giving Ur-Drakons the advantage since they seemed to have inherited it. I recommend fire shaping to the fullest. If your a lifecrafter that is.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: -x-OMEN-x-_dup1

I must disagree with the wingbolt comment, If you bid a wingbolt against ONE of my Ur-Drakons then the wingbolt will be turned to ash.

But you can get wingbolts in the third section. You can't get ur-drakons until the final section. Wingbolts are way more useful, in the sense that you can have them around for more of the game.

Quote:

I recommend a full investment to level 20 fire shaping, which gives you nearly unstoppable Ur-Drakons.

Dikiyoba is pretty sure only the first ten levels in a shaping skill will count towards increasing a creation's level. And by the time you can get an ur-drakon, there are at least five or six points worth of fire shaping you can get from items.

[Randomizer]

With starting abilities and items you can get 7 in any shaping class.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Dikiyoba is pretty sure only the first ten levels in a shaping skill will count towards increasing a creation's level. And by the time you can get an ur-drakon, there are at least five or six points worth of fire shaping you can get from items.

Every point counts, but there are diminishing returns at high levels: above 10, you only get an extra level for every second rank in a shaping skill, and above 20 you only get an extra level for every third rank.

[DragonHighLord]

All of this is great info, thanks everybody

[Drayk Armitage]

I think the "only first 10 levels" thing was a bug in the original version which Jeff fixed in an early update.

 

And ur-drakons don't stun! They slow.

[Janitorial Closet]

Originally Posted By: Slarty

And ur-drakons don't stun! They slow.

And thank God for that, stun is a lot worse, in my opinion.

[Hydromedia]

Slow against anything that doesn't have speed or something like mass rejuvenate (forget exactly the name agent skills are off) is far better then stun for the mere fact that it is a more potent form of stun, which automatically makes it better. It really depends whether we are talking about G3 or G4, as in G4 you can attack with 1 AP. Slow wouldn't be needed as much in G3.

[-x-OMEN-x-]

But as i say, my Ur-Drakons are practically unstoppable. My proud and joy is my Ur-Drakon, Dryss. He has 1650 health and he hits for 200-400. I have two others that are exactly the same level as each other. Htey both have 1598 health and they hit for the same as Dryss. They have defeated the Titan and all types of the Unbound with ease. I dare say their most valuable feature is the stun, and their ablitly to parry/dodge hits. I might even go so far as to say that they near the perfection of Fire-Shaping.

[-x-OMEN-x-]

And yes, MINE stun. I cant explain it, but their fire stuns enemies.

[Hydromedia]

I could probably take them with my agent. Enough daze and speed and wands should do the trick. I could daze them and kill you before you could cast mental barrier. That is, if you even have any spells after getting 20 levels of fire shaping...

A good agent is far superior to anything else, and Magic Creatures are alot like Agents with their disabling. I'm just an Agent at heart i guess .

[-x-OMEN-x-]

I have full Blessing magic, full healing, full battle magic, part mental magic. Depending how much health you have i dont think you would survive one round. And i can make back up creations. And after i boost them, your dead, you would have one round to take all three.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Every point counts, but there are diminishing returns at high levels: above 10, you only get an extra level for every second rank in a shaping skill, and above 20 you only get an extra level for every third rank.

I stand corrected. Guess that makes a deadweight lifecrafter more appealing.

Dikiyoba.

[Lilith]

Intelligence is still a better investment than shaping skill, in general. Essence is more important than creation levels: at any given time, it's probably better to have x+1 creations than x slightly stronger creations.

 

Also, if Hydromedia and OMEN could keep their pants zipped up in future, that'd be much appreciated. We don't really need a measuring contest in this thread.

[-x-OMEN-x-]

Actually my zipper is up and tight. Im just sayin that my creations are pretty much unstoppable. And your right, x+1 slightly weaker creations are better than one stronger creation. That is what i have. Three Ur-Drakons. all of them are around the same health

 

[Sleeping Dragon]

A lot would depend on which one went first. Who put more points into quick action?

 

And Thuryl, I think your posts have been consistently rude, you should be more considerate of others.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

And Thuryl, I think your posts have been consistently rude, you should be more considerate of others.

And some kid blathering on about how his creation can beat up everyone else's creations isn't inconsiderate of others? If you coddle people who post that kind of nonsense, you're only going to get more of the same.

[Synergy]

Her creation.

 

-S-

[Hydromedia]

Thuryl,

Relax. Just trying to prove a point about creations in general, not "Mine are better then his." Saying that magic is better then fire is different from saying "Mine is better then yours." It's like the difference between talking about the advantages and drawbacks of different kinds of paintball guns, not my gun is more awesome then yours. At least, thats the level i tried to keep it on.

[DragonHighLord]

Quote:

Every point counts, but there are diminishing returns at high levels: above 10, you only get an extra level for every second rank in a shaping skill, and above 20 you only get an extra level for every third rank.

Does this apply for other skills/stats as well. Like melee/missile have a 5% to hit chance per each point,, does that stay the same so that at 20 points, you will have 100%. And with str/dex, do those effects diminish after 10 points as well.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

If you coddle people who post that kind of nonsense, you're only going to get more of the same.

It was not nonsense. I saw a legitimate discussion on creation strength, using in-game statistics and experiences (same stuff like you were posting). The only difference between them and you was that they were very proud of what they had accomplished (when you can get excited about such things, it is a sign of a truly great game). I also found the discussion interesting, so yes, I will coddle them, because I would like more of the same.

[-x-OMEN-x-]

I did not mean to imply that my creations were better than anyones. I was pointing out that the magic of an agent could probably not contest with three Ur-Drakons(each having 1600 health and hitting for 500 each) and a shaper that was equipped with full magic skills save mental magic and healing. could buff them for 30 rounds. The agent would be dead within 2 to 3 rounds.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Hmm, I don't play agents much, but could a skilled agent not daze the creations and dump all their offensive powers directly on the shaper? A PC would not concentrate on the drakons so much as an AI would, after all, if the shaper dies, it's over.

[-x-OMEN-x-]

I agree with that. IF he could disable my Ur-Drakons. Though with mental barrier and all my buffing skills, he would have to get past my drakons first. And if he didnt kill/disable my Ur-Drakons in the first round of combat, he would either suffer a severe health loss or he would be dead. Do you see my point, my shaper is the power behind the Ur-Drakons. He can buff them so that they wont get touched. The agent wouldnt be able to reach me before he was dead. Lets just say he did get to me. He would then deal with an array of Battle Magic attacks, and a 500 health shaper with healing spells and blessing magic.( i know that it isnt that much health but its is pretty good for a shaper).