Geneforge 5: Improvements, Innovations etc

[Milla]

I search through the forums, trying to find a topic like this but I didn't so I've started one for the discussion of what you would like to see(Or not)in Geneforge 5.

 

I think someone else originally brought this up but I'd like to see NPC's recognise what kind of shaped creations you have. When you walk into a friendly shaper camp, you would think that someone would comment on the fact you have a few Drayks following you around.

[The Duke]

I'm with ya sister! P.S. read ,Having a Shaping Warren or Rebel Safehouse, It has a few ideas. Also dryaks and drackons should make comments.

 

"Hey why are you helping the Shapers? How dare you! AHH DON'T ABSORB ME!! I'M sorry! or for the drackon "You dare help the shapers!! ARRRR (summons 8 battle bettas that beat you to crap) DIE TRAITOR!! Stupid weak humans.

[XTehmasterX]

Quote:

or for the drackon "You dare help the shapers!! ARRRR (summons 8 battle bettas that beat you to crap) DIE TRAITOR!! Stupid weak humans.

But think about that, by the time you are powerful enough to have a Drakon, you will probably be powerful enough to kill one as well.
Other than that I agree with all of the stuff from here and the Shaping/Rebel Warrens thread.

[Sudanna]

Nope. Won't happen. The most you would get would be strange looks and bad vibes. Besides, your all new noobs, other than Milla.

 

But, on a less disparaging note, this has been a frustration to Spiderwebbers for a long time. Jeff has decided against it, probably because it would be an unfair restriction if you joined the Shapers.

[Dark Mage]

An improvement for g5, the charged creations...I hate them, I mean who could possibly prefer to make a corrupted rothgoroht that will day instantly instead of a so cool named rotzidon(or rotdizon I don't remember, both are cool)??

 

I want my terror vlishes back!! not those stupid charged vlishes that will die!! That kind of poison damage found in the terror vlish can be found nowhere else.

 

Well you know what I mean with that...Further ideas later...

[Aequitas]

Add kyshakks, wingbolts, etc to the G3 creation series and maybe a few new spells, and I will be completely happy.

 

I have it from a reliable source that there will not be a Geneforge VI.

[Dark Mage]

Yeah I have readed that thing of G6 around here... Jeff is supossed to end the main rebellion plot in G5, so I expect the game to be awesome.

[Milla]

@ the Doctor: After writing that I did think that it wouldn't happen due to reasons that you yourself stated.

 

But I suppose that you by the time you were able to shape barred creatures people wouldn't want to mess with you anyway.

 

Anyway, I'd like to see more crafting recipes or a reappearance of the Sholai.

[Sudanna]

The Trakovites were the Sholai for G4. They weren't actually Sholai, but they were mistakenly named after one.

[The Duke]

I'd like to see creations treated like your own character. Avernum type set up. Drackons should be able to shape. In fact when you summon an idependint creation like that it should follow you and be well independint. And I realy think Drackons should Shape.

[Aequitas]

Me as well. You could control up to... (counts on fingers)...17 creations!

[Darkdread]

*Spoilers ahead...*

 

I finished the game yesterday, the plot was nice, I enjoyed seeing the end after the decisions I had made throughout the game, but I am VERY disappointed that in the final *battle* against Alwan and the creations trying to sabotage the preparations for the unbound I was only able to make 1 (ONE) Drakon or any other 4th level creation. I decided to keep my drayk and Wingbolt. I was a rebel lifecrafter who used all the canisters I found.

 

Yes the final battle was not tough (the shaper camp in the South of the first province was indeed hard, but still I expected all my abilities and power to be put to the test in the final battle...

So in a G5, please let us be able to make more level 4 creations!

[The Duke]

Next game I want to be able to chose drackon as a character. That would be awsome.

[Sudanna]

No. Period, no. The Doctor would say why, but an angry dad is coming his way.

[Hawk King]

Quote:

Originally written by Kernio the Magnificent:
Next game I want to be able to chose drackon as a character. That would be awsome.

Yeah Im 99.9% positive thaat that won't happen, sorry.
And yeah I too love the idea of having a shaping lab or rebel safehouse. Even though it is almost gaurenteed that it won't happen.

Edit: darn you dctor, you beet me to it.

[Chilung]

I would love to have a nethergate type setup, where you could pick to start as a rebel (and have all the rebel classes) or start as a shaper (and choose from the shaper classes). Yes I know some classes are equivilants but if you had the same thing as nethergate happening, which is for those who haven't played it, the two corresponding storylines interact, so when party A is doing something party B is too it would be quite interesting.

 

Its probably too much effort just because it would mean writing storylines for both characters when you're only using one, and then there would be the confusion of what to do with the other if you turned coat. Still...

 

I would like the shapers to notice if you had creatures they've barred or don't use, and have the appropriate reactions, its a minor point and I don't know how you would implement it, but it would force the point a little in my mind about the general reaction of the population to seeing a drakon or gazer in the street.

[-silver-]

The restriction should apply as much to the Rebels - what Drakon is going to stand for an instant seeing another be subservient to a mere human?!

[Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas]

When did you get back?

 

And hello.

[Cylon]

I think it would be cool if you could make a creation and then ride on its back.

 

I would climb on a Drakon and herd my Cryoas. Giddy up Drakon. Get along little Cryoa.

 

-----------------

Supreme Lord of the Noobs

[Dark Mage]

I want to ride in a rothgoroth and then see how all my skin burns and dissolves, sexy isn't?

 

Also a drakon would never let a so inferior being to ride in its back.

 

Also playing as a drakon would be as unprovable as playing with a vahnatai in avernum.

[Chilung]

Quote:

Originally written by -silver-:
The restriction should apply as much to the Rebels - what Drakon is going to stand for an instant seeing another be subservient to a mere human?!

Eep, yeah didn't think about that.
Scrap the whole bloody idea. Too complex.

[Agnessa]

One interesting thing for me--if you could do something other than use canisters... for example, destroy them for xp (and maybe even something of a minor quest, like 'destroy # canisters for [insert item]').

[Milla]

Quote:

Originally written by Agnessa:
One interesting thing for me--if you could do something other than use canisters... for example, destroy them for xp (and maybe even something of a minor quest, like 'destroy # canisters for [insert item]').

I really wanted to do that while playing G4. So I could play as an active trakovite and devote myself to ridding the world of canisters rather than just avoiding them.

[Lilith]

The easiest way to implement it would probably be a dialogue box that pops up every time you use a canister, but that might get annoying.

 

(On the other hand, said dialogue box could also give you an idea of what the canister is going to do to you before you use it, rather than forcing you to save first and reload if you don't want it.)

[Student of Trinity]

That's something that has always bothered me. In principle it seems very reasonable that the effect of a canister might be impossible to tell in advance, if you didn't make it yourself. And then since using it is irreversible, you're really rolling the dice every time you touch one. This adds to the canister mystique.

 

Except you're totally not, because you always save, and reload if the skill gained isn't worth the countdown towards a changed ending. Which is just tedious.

 

Since disabling saving is not a good idea, I see two basic options for improvement.

 

1) Let the player recognize in advance what the canister will do. By now canisters are well known, and a rebel PC might be trained in recognizing them.

 

2) Do some clever stuff with timers and SDFs to give canister effects that don't appear for some time, or until some specific things are done (such as using another canister, or entering some special environment). By the time you fully realize what that canister did to you, you've played too much more of the game to want to go back. Some delayed effects could even be made random, so that consulting a walkthrough wouldn't remove the risk.

 

I like option 2) best, but it could be combined with 1), in that player knowledge of canisters could be unreliable or incomplete.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
1) Let the player recognize in advance what the canister will do. By now canisters are well known, and a rebel PC might be trained in recognizing them.

2) Do some clever stuff with timers and SDFs to give canister effects that don't appear for some time, or until some specific things are done (such as using another canister, or entering some special environment). By the time you fully realize what that canister did to you, you've played too much more of the game to want to go back. Some delayed effects could even be made random, so that consulting a walkthrough wouldn't remove the risk.

I like option 2) best, but it could be combined with 1), in that player knowledge of canisters could be unreliable or incomplete.

I can think of a third option, although it changes the canister system almost as radically as #2: make all canisters interchangeable. Rather than picking a canister effect at random and being saddled with something useless like a level of Create Thahd, you'd always get Create Thahd from the first canister you picked up, Searer from the second canister, and so on and so forth. You have to keep using the early, less useful canisters because it's the only way to get to the good stuff. I suppose if we wanted, we could divide canisters into "creations", "magic" and "other", and give each a separate progression (and distinguish the three types with handy colour-coding).

Of course, this would also mean that you couldn't play a low-canister game and still make Drakons at the end, since your first level of Create Drakon would presumably come at around your 20th creation canister. Being able to get all the really useful creations in a low-canister game has always felt like a bit of an exploit to me anyway, though; using canisters in moderation doesn't really seem consistent with everything the game tells us about them.

[Student of Trinity]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
Being able to get all the really useful creations in a low-canister game has always felt like a bit of an exploit to me anyway, though; using canisters in moderation doesn't really seem consistent with everything the game tells us about them.

This is a good point. But I think I'd rather have it resolved a bit less crudely, through a somewhat extended version of my #2 proposal. You only get Create Drakon if you have already absorbed enough 'lower level' canisters to prepare you. It could be that if you haven't completed the required series of prior treatments, then you get some warped or crippled version of the ability, or even get warped or crippled yourself.

You don't want to go too far with this, because the whole point of canisters is to offer easy power. But perhaps it can still be easy without being totally trivial, in that you may have to take the right course of canisters, perhaps combined with other easy, but pyscho-genetically dangerous, actions.

And this would all tend to make canister management into a big aspect of the game. But that would be cool, I think. Canisters have always been a big part of the games, even though their mechanics have so far been trivial. Why not give them a bit more strategy?

[Agnessa]

Well, I don't think it'd be *too* burdensome to have a little pop-up thing every time you touch a canister--not much different than every time you look into a container of whatever sort to see if there's anything good in there.

 

So instead of the auto-touch=use, it'd be a little window with three choices: use, smash, change mind. Change mind would allow you to back out of touching it without either effect. Use would be just like it is now, while smash would result in the changed image (broken canister) and a little 'you gained experience' message.

 

But yeah, I think if you wanted your character to be a Trakovite or even a very pro-Shaper (orthodox) character, smashing canisters instead of using them should be a choice. And it would underscore the whole canister=easy way vs. 'gain skills the hard way' ethos, even if the reward for canister smashing was not xp (which is probably easiest to code--and I'd make it a flat number so that it's still worthwhile at high levels) but say 2 skill points (not enough necessarily to improve a skill, but add enough of them, and you're getting somewhere).

[Sudanna]

Maybe you could gain a couple of valuable crystals, about 500xp, and a ring of puresteel.

[The_Nazgul]

A bit more gold and treasures would be nice.

[shadowss]

well I've been thinking of connecting the spawner script with a golem creation(change template + script of ornk) i haven't gotten to this since I'm working on an editor..

and if u want to play as a drakon you can do:

go to gf4itemchars.txt , find you character,eg (CTRL+RF[lifecrafter}) and change the code:

cr_graphic_template = 140;

to

cr_graphic_template = 85;

they will still treat you as a human, but u look like a drakon lol

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
I can think of a third option, although it changes the canister system almost as radically as #2: make all canisters interchangeable. Rather than picking a canister effect at random and being saddled with something useless like a level of Create Thahd, you'd always get Create Thahd from the first canister you picked up, Searer from the second canister, and so on and so forth. You have to keep using the early, less useful canisters because it's the only way to get to the good stuff.

At first I thought this conflicted with game canon, which says the canister maker places one specific ability into each canister, but you could just say something like "oh, that canister had create thahd in it the whole time" even though it didn't. Whatever, good idea. It gets my Emperor's Seal of Approval®, mostly because it makes it more difficult to resist delicious canisters.

[Sudanna]

That would eliminate the possibility of getting those few spell/creations that can only be gained by canisters. And the Emperor's Seal of Approval is a death warrant.

[-silver-]

Quote:

Originally written by Nalyd Twisted:
That would eliminate the possibility of getting those few spell/creations that can only be gained by canisters. And the Emperor's Seal of Approval is a death warrant.

it would do no such thing.
it would just mean you had to consume "enough" canisters to get to them...

[Sudanna]

Well, if you want to fall into that particular corruption, then yes, go ahead.

 

But Nalyd won't do that

[Emperor Tullegolar]

It forces people to make the sacrifice for true power. Your unwillingness to make that sacrifice reveals your weakness.

[Alorael at Large]

As Thuryl said, getting the goodies by using canisters sparingly just seems wrong. You should either have to avoid canisters entirely or just go for them all.

 

Having delayed canister effects would just encourage going online for spoilers, but having canisters give abilities in order is a fairly good idea. I haven't really noticed any specifically placed canisters abilities anyway.

 

—Alorael, who could even see a mix. You'll always find a Strength canister in one place, but it's next to two other canisters that give whatever abilities come next in your progression.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Geneforge 4 was definitely a huge improvement over its predecessor GF3, but the one thing which really disappointed me was that Jeff continues to retain some redundant creations. He continues to build 'sideways' (adding Wingbolts, War Tralls, etc), but leaves the ****ty core creations unchanged.

 

No-one has touched pyroroamers or battle betas since GF1, and Jeff knows it. Battle Creations in general are redundant. So why has he left them as an option to be Shaped? Why can't we have Vlish that Daze or Stun? Why not a support Vlish which can heal? Why not a Battle Beta that can intimidate enemies? Why not a pyroroamer who can hit multiple targets with a cone firebreath? Hell, I'm not a game designer, and I can think of several ways to make PC creations more fun to shape.

 

Instead of continually adding new tiers of creations, Jeff should reform those which already can be shaped, and perhaps add a third option (eg. Vlish/Terror Vlish/Radiant Vlish). He made a partial attempt at this in GF 4 (witness the wonderful improvement to the Drakon), but some redundant creations still remain (Unstable Thahd, I'm looking at you!)

[Sudanna]

Unstable Thahd? Any of the "charged" creations were redundant. No offense to Jeff's work, but please don't include them in GF5.

 

The ideal addition would be a "Make you own Creation" option, i.e. A floating Battle Beta with Vlish tentacles and wingbolt wings. Won't happen, but it only hurts a litte to dream.

[Alorael at Large]

Battle creations have the inertia of four games behind them now, so I don't think the core creations will be getting any overhauls. They do need some way to become the equals of the other two types, though. I'm sure Jeff will work on it in G5.

 

Unstable creations were an experiment. Unless Jeff is really fond of them I doubt they'll return.

 

—Alorael, who very much likes the idea of support creations. Healing is probably unbalanced because creations lack essence, but trading in part of your essence pool to have an improved way to bless, haste or otherwise improve your party would be an interesting mechanic. The balancing would be tricky, but if it worked it would be fun.

[ex post slarto]

How would the balancing be tricky? Geneforge ONE had creations with unlimited slowing ability. G4 had creations that could curse. Haste and Bless are also far cheaper spells than others that are already emulated by creations (Aura of Flames and Kill, I'm looking at you). And Jeff would have to work hard to make a creation more broken than the G3 Vlish.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Trefoil Live:
Battle creations have the inertia of four games behind them now, so I don't think the core creations will be getting any overhauls. They do need some way to become the equals of the other two types, though. I'm sure Jeff will work on it in G5.

I think that if battle creations are going to be viable, they need much, much more durability than they currently have. A HP bonus on a par with kyshakks would be a good start. I like the idea that someone mentioned earlier of giving them debuffing attacks, too, but while it'd certainly make them more useful I'm not sure it'd really fit what their role is supposed to be. Traditionally, fire creations have been the versatile damage-dealers, magic creations have been debuffers (although some of them also have better damage output than fire creations), and battle creations... well, admittedly, battle creations haven't been much of anything so far.

[ex post slarto]

Battle creations were at least theoretically useful in G1 and G2, when most of them did have higher combat bonuses than other creations, and when melee damage was higher than missile damage (d8 vs d6-8) rather than lower (d4 vs d3-12).

[Enraged Slith]

I feel that some of these suggestions could make this game much more appealing to a wider audience, but some of these feel like they'd only affect a powergamer's or a torment player's opinion.

 

As for the increased HP of battle creations: maybe a little, just for torment's sakes. It's really dumb that some fire creations have more HP than battle creations. However, an increase in health points could severely unbalance the game in battle creations favor, especially with the new 1 AP attack system. Maybe changing the AP cost for ranged attacks back to 3 would help. It would make the fragile ranged creations much more susceptible to stun than battle creations.

 

I'd also like to see more diversity in creations. There should be benefits for using any type of creation, not just the creation with the strongest attack power. A more complex stat growth system would probably help there.

 

As always, I'd like to see an option for customizing the color of your creations. (Heck, the ability could be added as an easter egg canister) PINK THAHDS PLZ!!!

 

Edit:

In G1 my higher level Battle Beta was trumped in melee by a Drayk. This should never happen. Ever.

[Student of Trinity]

Just beefing up battle creations would probably fix them nicely, making them less negligible both as allies and as enemies.

 

But it's a good thing this is all it would take, because I think Jeff's other options are limited by the fact that PC creations are the same stock types as all the monsters you fight. Turning PC magic creations into glass cannons would be better for balance versus PC battle creations, but it would also turn all the Vlish and Gazers that you encounter into pushovers. The player can compensate for fragility with good tactics, but making a comparably effective AI is probably beyond the scope of shareware.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
The player can compensate for fragility with good tactics, but making a comparably effective AI is probably beyond the scope of shareware.

Making an effective AI is not enormously difficult. Making an effective AI that doesn't make the player abandon the game in disgust is somewhat trickier. After all, "good tactics" on the PC's part often reduce to "buff and ambush in order to kill everything before it can attack"; the same tactics applied by an AI make for a poor game.

The core problem of AI design is that while easy combat and difficult combat are both trivial to design, the true goal is to make combat that feels harder than it actually is, and that involves at least as much manipulation of human intelligence as of machine intelligence. Continually tricking the average player into believing he has made extraordinary accomplishments is no mean feat.

[orange111]

I've been noticing that not too many people like the charged creature idea so it might be better if there were 3 levels for each creature-the beginning phase (like a fyora), then a charges state and finally the last third tier state which would be a cryo in this example. It would make since that after every level of a certain creature skill, you manage to shape an improved version of it.

[Milla]

I've rethought it and what I really want to see is more of those creation diagrams loading screens that were in G3 and G4.

[Chintznibbles]

I second the "creature schematic" loading screens. Those are great, and there should be more of them. (although the Rotgroth one actually grosses me out a little from time to time... bleh)

 

Since I keep managing to find a way to get like 9 points in Create Fyora and such, I think it'd be cool to have a third tier. Make them yellow and have them breathe a weak version of Kyshakk lightning. Electora? Hmm... sounds like some kind of election-based thing, but it could work...

 

I actually like the "rebel" character classes a lot. More variety is always welcome in my book. If GF5 is Shaper-centric, an option to just pick a male or female type sprite for your character would be interesting. Useless, but interesting.

 

Finally, you should be able to talk to your creations. Intelligent creations should have huge, elaborate dialogue trees and fanciful sidequests, along the lines of the ones in Planescape:Torment. *nod*

 

Ooh, ooh, and voicework, too.

 

Fyora: Rar.

Vlish: <eerie unintelligible whisper>

Thahd: Dur, me smash!

Drayk: a variety of sarcastic comments.

Rotgroth: things about brains, specifically how he'd like to eat some.

Drakon: Thinly veiled threats.

 

Yeah, I know... whoever said dreaming only hurts a little was right, though.

[Jeran Korak]

1) Get rid of the "one-man one-bag" way of carring items.

 

2) At least 10 more types of creation

 

3) Get rid of the creations limit, just have as many creations as you can support with more chance of a creation going "rouge" and attacking everything in sight.

 

4) Get "packhorse" creation types, I.E A Battlealpha that is useless at fighting but can carry something like 500 pounds of items.

 

My 5-cents