Something I never understood

[Suspicious Vlish]

Here you have an Empire which possesses the fantastic ability to Shape. Wingbolts, Kyshakks, and Rotgroths.

 

Yet the Shapers WALK EVERYWHERE.

 

Why has Jeff neglected to put mounted troops in the game? I mean, seriously, you'd think a Shaping empire would be able to create half-decent mounts...

[Nioca]

Because such a creation could easily be absorbed right out from under the shaper. Or hit with a discipline wand. Besides, horses are mentioned in GF4.

[Enraged Slith]

I didn't think Shapers could absorb other Shaper's creations. Isn't this why they have trouble with Drakons in the first place?

 

Well, in the Geneforge 1 you begin the game by riding on a Drayk Boat thing.

[Xaiya]

Shaper goes to absorb random battle alpha gone rouge.

Crunch.

[Aequitas]

Well, if the Shaper can get close enough to the bloody creature whithout getting stomped/whomped/chomped/crashed/hashed/bashed to absorb it...

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Enraged Slith:
I didn't think Shapers could absorb other Shaper's creations. Isn't this why they have trouble with Drakons in the first place?

The creation has to submit in order for you to absorb it. In Geneforge 3, Master Hodge left an artila in the creation pen and the innkeeper asks you to kill it. With some leadership skill, you can convince it to let you absorb it.

As for mounts, I always figured shapers stay in their fortresses all the time, guardians are man to man fighters, and agents need to move around inconspicuously. As for heavy loads that need to be carried, serviles seem to do fine (caravan in Geneforge 4).

[Randomizer]

Shapers make creations to use as boats, which is what you are on at the start of GF1. Since wingbolts are the first true flying creations and are suspect for rogue tendencies, it is too early for Shapers to go airborne.

[Guardian of Eternity]

I think that the real issue here isn't whether or not a creation mount can be absorbed (although it is important).

 

The issue is that it's probably as easy to Shape a mount for a soldier as it is to Shape a creature that's better than a soldier riding something else.

 

Edit: typo fixed

[Suspicious Vlish]

None of the explainations here really make much sense. It's pretty much a well known concept that cavalry have an advantage over infantry (unless said infantry are armed with pikes/spears). There's no reason whatsoever to justify an absence of unmounted guardians/soldiers (or even Shapers/Agents).

 

Personally, I think it just comes down to laziness on Jeff's part.

 

I find it really hard to take an army seriously, if it lacks light and heavy cavalry.

[-silver-]

the tactical advantages of cavalry over infantry only hold in pre-gunpowder armies. since then, guerilla warfare has ruled whenever applied. think of shaping as gunpowder.

 

(edit: before someone jumps on me: to be fair, I left out years of gunpowder armies which included major cavalry divisions... but those armies were using guns as fancy crossbows and trying to keep the old style. until the American revolution showed them up so badly... and on the other side of history, I left out that before the the invention of the stirrup, cavalry weren't particularly useful - the roman army used cavalry for mop up and show, but the phalanx was tremendously more powerful. the history of warfare is rather more complex than I am putting in this post, and I shall have to suffice to say that cavalry had its moment, but wasn't always superior to infantry, and didn't remain superior to infantry forever).

 

(edit 2: the shapers aren't joking when they say "a single shaper IS an army". just look at how much the player destroys over the course of a game. put my opponents on horseback, and they'll just die faster because they'll get closer to me sooner. in range of my fyoras and daze spells, or my drayks and essence orbs, or my wingbolts and aura of flames (depending on the chapter )).

[Lilith]

When creations can be controlled safely and precisely from afar by shapers and fight more effectively than all but the best of human soldiers, the rider becomes somewhat redundant.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

Personally, I think it just comes down to laziness on Jeff's part.

"Laziness" is perhaps overly harsh; implementing a mounted soldier convincingly is not an easy task. Think for a while on how you'd do it, and then think on the disadvantages of whatever approaches you might consider. Game design isn't easy.

[Chilung]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
Shapers make creations to use as boats, which is what you are on at the start of GF1. Since wingbolts are the first true flying creations and are suspect for rogue tendencies, it is too early for Shapers to go airborne.

Actually when we still had the Awakened around, their final ending definitely had flying creatures.

[Jeran Korak]

Just use the same script as the one used to make worms spawn from the infested drake!

 

A rider/steed picture, rider/steed picture dies, spawn script activates rider spawns!

 

How hard can that be?

[D.Drew2]

Yeah! I want to ride an ornk! Yeehaw! moo

[-silver-]

I just have to giggle whenever I see people write, or hear people say, "how hard can it be?"

 

Small changes to code are never as straightforward as one thinks they should be - subtle new interactions crop up all over the place (just ONE example, purely off the top of my head: does your new script now perhaps allow people to skip encounters by killing their steed in the right place and re-spawning outside the rectange? well, gotta test for it to make sure...)

 

Small changes to game balance are never as straightforward as one thinks they should be, either (just ONE example, not definitive, not complete. refuting it doesn't "win" anything. all the really good examples wouldn't be discovered until beta testing after its implemented, anyway, but: do steeds give the player more AP? if not, then how are they "faster"? if they do, then haven't you just made the player into a minor demigod?)

[Alorael at Large]

The biggest problem is probably size. A horse and rider should take up more than one tile. Actually, so should dragons, but a shrunken horse and rider made to fit in one tile would look bizarre. Then again, Jeff managed in A3, so it's possible. I think he's just used to thinking about guys on foot, and that works for me.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't see why anything hostile would spawn from a killed rider. Many attacks could just as easily kill the rider first, or both.

[Retlaw May]

Also, a stead type creation could take up valuable essence and concentration to control.

[Sir Spiff]

I always thought Glaahks were supposed to double as mounts. They look ridable to me.

[Leftover Sauerkraut]

I think they have no mounted creatures because they would be easy to cast terror on to. If a shaper was in the middle of casting a killer spell, all the enemy would have to do is scare his mount. It probably takes a lot of concentration to cast spells and ride horse-like creatures effectively. I thin it would be ineffective to mount guardians just because all the enemy would have to do is get a battle alpha/beta and punch them off their mount.

[Student of Trinity]

Quote:

Originally written by Sir Spiff:
I always thought Glaahks were supposed to double as mounts. They look ridable to me.

But think of their attack routine.

[Jeran Korak]

The blow of a battle alpha should send any man sprawling but my guardian happliy took on 5 battle GAMMA'S in the geneforge room.

 

The blast from a Ur-Drakon should INCINERATE an enemy not just make them "flinch" and take 125 damage! They'er supposed to be able to take out an entire city by themselfs AND fly to boot in G3!

 

Now do you see the error in your reasoning?

[Eugi]

Since we're in a nitpicking thread...

 

...why are there no bows in Geneforge? Did Batons make Bows (and crossbows, for the matter) obosolete?

 

As for horses, this never really bothered me... Now that you mention it, perhaps Shapers sometimes simply use their existing creations when they get tired of walking? Sure, this isn't present in the game but I can always tell my Battle Alpha to carry me for a while while I rest. And their scorpion-like tail thingy aside the Glaahk look like they were made to be ridden...

 

Talking about "riding", a very perverted thought occurs to me.

 

We know there are female shapers (or male if that's what boils your pot), so has there been any precedent, any rules or such about coitus between shaper and creation? I begin to wonder if this is a problem of any sort and how it's viewed in Shaper society or outside of Shaper society. Are there creations made only for pleasure? I remember that creations are not given the ability to reproduce, but considering that actually shaping other creations (as the Drakons do) means that just parodies of human sexual organs could be made?

 

Thoughts?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Eugi:

 

Quote:

...why are there no bows in Geneforge? Did Batons make Bows (and crossbows, for the matter) obosolete?

Or thorn batons work so well that bows were never invented. I mean, it's probably a lot easier to carry thorns and a baton than a bow and arrows (although the batons seem to have grown larger in G4). Easier to make? Probably not the batons, but the thorns aren't much of a problem.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Vicheron]

No one in Avernum uses mounts either. Even the Empire troops in Avernum 3 didn't have mounts even though we know that they use horses.

[Sir Spiff]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Quote:

Originally written by Sir Spiff:
I always thought Glaahks were supposed to double as mounts. They look ridable to me.

But think of their attack routine.

You needn't ride them in battle. You'd just have to get off during the fight. Or duck.

[-silver-]

Quote:

Originally written by Sir Spiff:
You needn't ride them in battle. You'd just have to get off during the fight. Or duck.

Oh, if you want hoplars instead of cavalry, then fine -- your wish is granted: you already have a horse -- your characters have always had horses since GF 1. You just ride them when you travel between zones, but each zone is a combat area, so you tie the horses up at the zone edge...

[Acidic Helixbolt]

Omitting the "laziness on Jeff's part" and "techical problems of fitting a mount in one title" (When there is none, abovementioned Glaahks happily take up one square, and drawing a Shaper figure atop of it will cause little more then a minor increase to our beloved "skip turn instead of attacking someone atop of you" interface problem) explanations, I can suggest the strange, but possible case of Geneforgians not inventing/accepting the concept of "riding a mount" altogether.

 

Given there are no horses, Glaahks are pain in the... errrm... well, uncomfortable to ride (You try to make yourself comfortable on a trembling chitin plate:-P), and new creature designs being directed elsewhere, it's just possible that geneforgians view riding a mount much in the same way first cars were taken by men. "Quite a useless circus".

 

As for "cavalry", once again, that role is perfectly filled with fast-moving creatures already. Obviously Shapers will rather risk clawbug/glaahk/wingbolt then their own bodies atop of anything like that. Plus, unlike our world, where there were no tamed mounts with strong own offencive capabilities (Even war elephants were greately improved by archers tower on), in Geneforge, if I come to the idea of Shaping a horse for, say, non-shaping mercenaries to go to battle, I will very soon follow with the idea of a Centaur or whatever. And since I can not improve the "design" of mercenaries, but can make "Battle Centaur Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Horseshakk, Rothgrhorse etc", the "cavalry" as we understand it will most likely be outclassed.

 

P.S. A good Firebolt friend of mine pointed out WE are the "cavalry". Quite a cunning devil, he was, unlike that mage who tried to make him last with underlveveled and badly timed Regeneration:(

 

P.P.S. With hit last breaths he still tried to enlighten us about what a bane were shrapnel charges to cavalry, and that Essence Orbs are functionally the same thing.

[Archaeolagent]

Clearly, Geneforge needs Chocobos.

[Alorael at Large]

Aren't horses mentioned somewhere in at least one Geneforge? It's still possible that it just never caught on. The world of Geneforge seems to require draft animals, but that could be all that horses are for. Or, in a pinch, you could get a thahd to do it.

 

Maybe it's just a cultural thing. Part of the appeal of cavalry has always been that infantry is just considered less glamorous and glorious. The top dogs of Geneforge aren't even necessarily fighters themselves, though, just the ones who can produce the most battle-worthy creations. There's no incentive to get on a horse and charge into battle against the vlishy hordes.

 

—Alorael, who suddenly and irrelevantly started wondering if young shapers are taught how to fight while standing next to healing and essence pools. Getting stabbed, burned, and then healed up would definitely make the lessons stick.

[Sudanna]

And while we're on the subject of what the Shapers should do, why not just an amorphous blob of caustic goo that simply envelops the enemy. All they would have to do is enlarge and acidicize an amoeba.

[Gabriel]

Quote:

Originally written by Meta-Undead:
And while we're on the subject of what the Shapers should do, why not just an amorphous blob of caustic goo that simply envelops the enemy. All they would have to do is enlarge and acidicize an amoeba.

Oh that's a good idea.
eatyoushaper.gif (1.1 KB)

[DokEnkephalin]

Yes, very good idea for Geneforge 5. And knowing the way the game threads go, you'll probably face at least one before you get the skill to create one.

 

I'm not sure I get the rationales that mounts are impractical for combat because they're dangerous...isn't combat dangerous? And even if you don't ride them, why wouldn't Shapers create pack animals to keep mobile stockpiles of spores and batons?