Best Game Ever?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Blades and the editors aside, is Geneforge 4 not the greatest Spiderweb game ever?

 

You can't deny it! It seems Jeff even gave you all what you were asking for! Remember this thread: How would you make it better? Here are some highlights...

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Make the people outside of the player's control alive and actually do things that influence the plot in more than trivial ways... the player should not be responsible for every major thing that goes on. The antagonists or other factions (with interests different than either the party or the antagonist) should do things in response to the party's actions.

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Rampaging mindless evil isn't very interesting, but society crumbling and a few people trying to hold everything together in the face of rampaging mindless evil can be interesting.

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Being able to talk to the other side and its sympathizers makes it less one-dimensional... yes, you are the heroic adventurers who save the world, but it would be nice to see other people doing something once in a while.

I remember being baffled when you guys were asking for npcs that "do stuff," but I see now, and you were right. You guys got your wish, too! Geneforge 4 almost manages to make your character seem insignificant in the midst of all the war going on, and the characters have real depth, what more could you ask for?

 

There are characters that stick around for most of the game, characters that you help in one area only to have to help somewhere else, and, my personal favorite, villains that escape your grasp only to trouble you in the future.

 

I remember starting that other thread because I was disappointed about all the complaints everyone was making about Avernum 4, so I figure, this could be the compliment threat for Geneforge 4. What did you like about Jeff's newest game?

[Randomizer]

The best change for the story is that your reputation is based upon actions and not dialog choices. In the previous games you mouthed all the right words and then did the opposite. Leadership allows you to still avoid doing certain actions and avoid fights.

 

The new combat system is great and I'd love seeing it in Avernum 5. It makes more sense and after getting rid of a few cheats it'll be better. The mines are no longer detonated by sending your creations through them for the most part (the Wrecked Lab is an exception),

 

The game will still need to be balanced a bit more, but with all the changes it is expected that not everything would be perfect. It's a lot better than the revisions to Avernum 4 with a tacked on story.

[Kelandon]

I'm holding off on an opinion until I actually play it, which is more charitable than I usually am.

[Aoslare]

It's a very good game, and a lot of thought and energy went into its design and execution. That's also true of a number of other Spidweb games, though, certainly including at least Exile 2, Nethergate, and Geneforge 1.

[VCH]

Excellent! The combat was interesting, sometimes frustrating. But in the end it just seemed more "real" than many games. It was like playing through a story and not playing just to do sh1t.

[Student of Trinity]

G4 would get my vote too. G1 still has a unique charm, being the first introduction to a quite original world, and having an especially nice harmony between the game mechanics and the game atmosphere. But G4 kicks it up a hefty notch in pretty much every respect. It might not give everyone what they want, but it gives a significant answer of some sort to pretty much every request somebody could have made.

[Alorael at Large]

I still think Nethergate is the best and I still like A2 more, but aside from my problems with the Geneforge engine and premise I agree that this game is the best.

 

—Alorael, who still thinks he'd rate the entire Avernum series (with the possible exception of A4) over Geneforge 4. A series is better than a lone game, and he still can't quite play the first three Geneforges. The fourth one has a few missing pieces as a consequence.

[Aoslare]

I'm a little surprised that you would even consider rating A4 over G4. I don't hate A4, but really -- what's the comparison?

[Silb Aran]

I would vote G4, and G1 in the same respect as Student of Trinity, even over Exile 2.

 

I'd say, though, that the area/global map system remains the major flaw. It's simple but really not immersive.

 

Perhaps it's not so much the area system itself as the fact that all areas are small flat squares of the same size. Some variety in shape or size, elevation, towers, anything really, would be a great addition.

[Alorael at Large]

That "possibly" was not a serious addition. I don't really consider it part of the Avernum trilogy. I do like its Avernized engine slightly more than Geneforges, but the plot leaves a bit to be desired.

 

—Alorael, who inserted the "a bit" humorously as well. Don't question.

[Mah Al Ibara]

I played Nethergate for about an hour, and was so frustrated by the game play that I gave up. It looked cooler than the two-dimensional Exile games, but it seemed so counterintuitive, and just moving around was a major nuisance. In that sense, the leap in game play in Geneforge 1 was downright thrilling; just click on a spot and your character goes there! After you've gotten used to the Geneforge (and later Avernum) gaming, Blades of Avernum is unplayable. It'd be like moving from MacOS X to Mac System Software 6. (Anyone remember MultiFinder? I forget what they called those mini-applications you used to access under the apple menu. And what was that thing we used to add or remove fonts? .... What? Don't tell me you're all too young to remember any of this stuff? I won't even ask if any of you ever owned a Lisa.)

Ehem. Anyway, Geneforge 4 is great so far, but I am a bit apprehensive. I was really unsatisifed with the choices we were forced to make in Geneforge III, and all of the endings left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Synergy]

Well, let us know what you think of the ending choices here, but I have gotten the best replayability value out of GF4 and have enjoyed it a lot. I am looking forward to the reworking of Nethergate Jeff is working on next, because I like the world, concept, and story, but find the interface clunky and discouraging. If the game engine is brought up to a par with A4 and GF4, I think Nethergate will be the best game yet.

 

-S-

 

P.S. I'm old enough that my first computer was an Apple //c.

[Alorael at Large]

And I still think that Nethergate's engine is better than Geneforge's. Different tastes, folks.

 

—Alorael, who likes being able to click to move. He likes being able to press a button to move more, though, and selection by letters is great. You can play the game fairly well with no mouse use.

[Synergy]

Hmm, I'd agree with the two things you mention. I like being able to do everything by keyboard, even if it can also be done by mouse. Thankfully, Jeff has suggested he is moving (back) in this direction, of making more things doable by keystroke. I was thinking more negatively of the older encumbrance system, having to unequip things to see stats or values, how you hand things between party members, how you sell things, the dialog system, and the cramped screen layout.

 

-S-

[Randomizer]

Being able to use mouse or keyboard makes it easier for whatever way is easiest for you. I hate when I'm just a little off with the cursor and move my character instead of attacking with it. The old interface needs a lot of upgrading and there are several nice features from A4/GF4 that could be used.

 

I'm old enough to have used an Apple II+ and remember before personal computers. I still have decks of punchcards from college.

[Lilith]

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Originally written by Synergy67:
I was thinking more negatively of the older encumbrance system

Encumbrance doesn't have to be a problem. Romans should pile on massive amounts of Armor Use, and Celts shouldn't wear armour.

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having to unequip things to see stats or values,

I'll grant that this can be a pain.

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how you hand things between party members,

I don't remember this annoying me.

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how you sell things, the dialog system,

I think keyword-based dialogue and response-based dialogue are difficult to compare to each other. Each is good at different things. My preference is for response-based dialogue, but I do see the advantages of a keyword system.

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and the cramped screen layout.

Eh. That's what you get when you design a game to run on 640x480 monitors.

[Octavo]

Certainly keyword and response are good at different things. Response is much better, however, at the reputation bit in Geneforge. (I'd say that keyword is better for the pump-information-out-of-people we got to do in Exile, and thus was better for Exile.)

 

G4 has its very high points, as above listed. They've been well-addressed, and I shan't expand on them further just now. What I loved absolute most about A4, though, was the dual-accessibility - I could move with the numpad or the mouse. That was something I'd been waiting for ever since our creator of games first introduced mouse movement.

 

It would be nice to have total dual accessibility. Perhaps in the new Nethergate.

[Alorael at Large]

Oh, sure, there are nice changes to Jeff's engines since Nethergate. I just don't think the flaws are bad enough to really detract from the game experience.

 

—Alorael, who thinks Nethergate hit upon something close to the best of all possible keyword system.s You don't have to type them all in, and you don't have to guess and click like in E3. Having the keywords in blue makes it fairly easy and close to a response system except for the ability to guess what else might get a response.

[Synergy]

Yeah, but it still slows me down from the cliff-jumping fun I want to be having instead!

 

-S-

[Sudanna]

Bah. Keywords. In Exile, they were hell. In Nethergate, merely an annoyance. Either way, -X- prefers the tried and true response system. This is his impatience speaking.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Hey. Stop trying to turn the "compliment Geneforge 4" thread into a "complain about Nethergate" thread! I know it is difficult for you guys to go for more than five or six posts without complaining about something but really, this game deserves better.

 

I was playing the game again for a different ending and I noticed more of the little things, like that there is a different image for every kind of pod and spores. I also like the variety of different types of mines as well. Still not sure that the green orbs do, however, as I've never allowed one to set off.

[Matanbuchus]

Isn't it also possible in Nethergate to CLICK on the keywords, instead of typing them in? Or do I remember totally wrong?

[Alorael at Large]

It was possible in E3, BoE, and Nethergate. The difference in Nethergate is that the keywords are blue so you know exactly what to click on for more information.

 

—Alorael, who missed important dialogues in E3/BoE several times just because he didn't think to check one word.

[Aoslare]

You mean because you didn't think to check two words. Having read through the dumps, I can state that the vast majority of dialogue pieces in the whole Exile series are triggered by two different keywords.