Are Drakons superior beings?

[Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas]

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Originally written by Retlaw May:
Jewish people aren't huge fire breathing monsters that harbor unsatable greed and a need for control of everything. Not only this, but Jewish people also don't have the ability to shape which they use very freely without much thought of concequence.

Wait, we're not?

All of my work to become the most vile and dispicable monster in the world gone? Someone better warn Alec about this.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

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Originally written by Stillness:
A single-minded war machine cannot practice science. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true.

Do Shapers make creations for pets? For company? No. Do they make creations to make life easier? No. Why do they make creations? War. And they don't even make tactical creations, like the Shapers (who have invented vast varieties for different situations), the only new creations the drakons have contributed are the unbound, designs for wanton destruction. They can shape new things, yes, but their only motive is destruction, and their new designed show this single-mindedness as well as a lack of creativity.

Quote:

PC: "You really plan to destroy all life on Terrestia?";
Ghaldring: "Only all Shaper life. Of course, most of the rest of it will die. But our only other choice is losing this war. I suppose, from some perspectives, what we are doing is morally questionable. But it is the only choice."

This does not sound like a "single-minded machine" with "no depth."

What? Yes it does! They do have another choice, they could have hid themselves (this is not difficult) and lived like those peaceful serviles. But no, their programming would not allow it. They must destroy, they must conquor.

[Upon Mars.]

Hum... drakons are superior to humans in many ways but inferior in other way to us. I consider that if something suffers and feel pain then it is equal to us because we know all to well how pain affect us and we are here in a way, to limit pain of others.

Therefore all beings have the same rights.

If you are obliged to kill to survive then it is not a proof of non respect and selfishness but in a way to preserve the ways of life that we all have, then it is in a sense a proof value and respect due to an other.

[Sudanna]

Oh? Upon Mars, do you consider yourself equal to, say, an ant because it can feel pain? Or a paramecium, or a cat? The ability to feel pain is not a sign of equality, and the willingness to kill is no sign in one direction or the other. It is the reason to kill, and the reason to fight that matters. The Drakons fight not for equality, but for domination. They truly have no need to fight. They could have lived out the remainder of their lives on the Ashen Isle(The northern one, Nalyd forgets it's name). They fight meaninglessly and without reason.

 

ET-

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Do Drakons make creations for pets? For company? No. Do they make creations to make life easier? No. Why do they make creations? War.

Really FYT, ET.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Oh for goodness sakes, this is getting ridiculous.

 

This debate has pretty much degenerated to Emp and Retlew stressing over and over again that Drakons are mindless killing machines, to which Stillness and I reply "But they do X, Y and Z! That isn't exactly what you'd expect of a mindless killing machine!"

 

To which we are given the reply "BUT THEY ARE, BUT THEY ARE! BUT THEY ARE! THEY WERE CREATED THAT WAY! FINGERS IN EARS, LALALALA!"

 

And then this absurdity about the Drakons 'hiding'.

 

1. You can't hide forever. The serviles on Sucia demonstrate that concept. The Shaper Empire is far reaching, and it's only a matter of time before you are found, even if you are in Barred Territory. Added to which, a Drakon doesn't 'blend in' as well as a servile.

 

2. Why should they hide? Was 'hiding in the attic' the only moral option that the Jews could have employed during Nazi dominion?

 

This just gets more and more absurd. "The Drakons fight back against a race which would genocide them, hence they are single-minded and violent." What a load of garbage!

 

And then that nonsense about Drakons being 'created' to be killing machines, hence they MUST be killing machines. Huh? The Shapers created the serviles to be mindless, dependent on the Shapers, and unable to use magic. That sure worked out well, didn't it?

 

Just because the Shapers 'intend' for a trait to be present in their creation, does not mean that it will be.

[Questionmarks.]

Hiding is for cowards,that is how we think,so saying "they could have just hid" wow,what a sissy move,do you know how arrogant we are? What would make you think we would hide form shapers? We would rather die fighting than hiding and waiting,out of the question,for real.

[Retlaw May]

No,Waylander, it is more you respond with "but X (which doesn't really supply good evidence) is why! Oh you made a point about Y and Z but I'll just ignore that."

[Sudanna]

Haze, you really aren't helping your case here. You're an incompetent and your gimmick is annoying at best. The point of the debate is whether Drakons are better or not. An unwillingness to hide isn't superiority.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Retlew:

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No,Waylander, it is more you respond with "but X (which doesn't really supply good evidence) is why! Oh you made a point about Y and Z but I'll just ignore that."

Whatever.

 

The Anti-Drakon argument pretty much contend that Drakons are mindless, selfish, killing machines.

 

Stillness and myself have pointed out time and time again that Drakons actually share many similiarities with the sapient servile/humans/drayks, and are in fact not simply violent killing machines. To summarize our arguments in support of this:

 

1. The Drakon's have a complex political structure, as observed in GF4. There are clear protocols (aka. Council meetings, and Greta mentioning that Drakon political procedure is very long-winded), there is a clear social ladder, and alliances form depending on the Drakonian's idealogy.

 

2. A sense of honour. The Drakon's disapprove of Salassdar's attempted assassination, despite the fact that they despise humans.

They prefer to fight honourable duels, even with their inferiors. They pay homage to dead rivals (Ghaldring to Salassdar). In GF3, the Drakon on the 5th island bowed to you out of respect as an equal before attacking.

 

3. A sense of humour. This is observed in the Council Meeting, where the Drakons laugh at Salassdar's humiliation.

 

4. The ability to be creative. I've pointed out time and time again that the Takers/Drakons have constructed numerous fantastic variations of existing creations, and were responsible for bringing the Gazer into being.

 

Emperor's response? "They haven't made as many new creations as the Shapers!" Given that the Drakon's have only been existence for a fraction of the time that the Shapers have, that isn't such a huge shock.

 

5. An inclination to be aesthetic. Drakon's clearly have some appreciation for art and jewellery.

 

6. Empathy for what they term as 'lesser species'. The Drakons as a species appear to have a maternal instinct to protect the serviles.

 

7. A sense of justice. Drakons are able to recognize that killing a creature merely for the crime of existing is unjust.

[Sudanna]

1- The Drakonic political structure is based mainly on, well, politics. It isn't useful at all in it's own right, and serves only to delay the war.

 

2- Well, you have this one. Honor isn't a viable emotion, though. It is a set of protocols defining what Drakons consider "fair play."

 

3- This is just sadism on the part of the Drakons.

 

4- This. . . is. . . wrong!!! What variations of new creations have the Drakons brought into being? The Unbound? All the creativity that required was "Ooh, let's make mindless killing machines even worse than us!"

 

5- They have no art. They wear jewelery because it's expensive and shows their power. Plus, they were modified from Drayks, who are natural hoarders.

 

6- They merely maintain this appearance for propaganda purposes. If they didn't, they would merely gain another enemy, albeit a weak one.

 

7- They think this only because they themselves are illegal. They would no sooner hesitate to commit mass genocide of one of their own rebellious experiments than the Shapers would. Note the cryodrayks that were attacked near Northforge.

[Questionmarks.]

Okay,i see you all have these different things to say about Us,and they all seem to be negative,are there any positive things you can say about us Drakons? At all?

Anything?

[Retlaw May]

Yay another ally in the fight against the evil Drakons!

 

1. Politicians are the lowest of life forms, most of the people who should lead don't have the stomach to become a bottom feeder. This also only highlights their fights for power.

 

2. How much of it was actually honor and how much of it was pure embaressment for being made fools of?

 

3. Like the other guy said, if that is their sense of humor I'd rather not see them laughing even if I was one of them.

 

4. Again they based all their new stuff off of inovations of Barhzal (they may have made the Rotghroth but I'm not sure) and even the new creations are based off of original Shaper designs. Shapers have also made new and impressive creations in the last couple years.

 

5. Again, like the other guy said, I believe (though I will say noone can say for certain) that they value them as a display of wealth and power. This is more hording than anything else in my eye.

 

6. Ummm the Drakons don't really seem that empathetic to the serviles to me. They constantly declare marshal law over their towns and treat serviles like their own creations. Even the fanatic servile rebels constantly mention this to you.

 

7. Once again, like the other guy said, Drakons wouldn't appose it if it benefitted them without too much reprocussions. Any group of species that would deny them dominance would likely be taken out.

 

I'm not saying that Drakons are mindless , I'm saying that their minds are quite devishly twisted. They are quite selfish if you follow their history in the games. Their not so much killing machines as they are the factories of killing machines with great firepower.

 

Also, you constantly refer to the same one or two Drakons who actually seem to have some sanity. But that is like refering to the few sociopathic psychos that are among humans.

[Questionmarks.]

Oh yeah,and about the incompetent thing,so you're basically calling me stupid?

[Retlaw May]

Well, it did take a while for you to process it...

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
The Drakon's have a complex political structure, as observed in GF4. There are clear protocols (aka. Council meetings, and Greta mentioning that Drakon political procedure is very long-winded), there is a clear social ladder, and alliances form depending on the Drakonian's idealogy.

A dictatorship? Yeah, real complex. In the animal world, Ghaldring would be what we call an 'alpha male.' Salissar challenged the alpha male for leadership of the pack, and lost. Behold the complex political structure.

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A sense of honour. The Drakon's disapprove of Salassdar's attempted assassination, despite the fact that they despise humans.

Their system of honor is based on ritualized duels, another element taken from the animal world. Goats duel, too, you know. The assasination attempt was a sign of weakness, and for animals that value strength above all else, of course they would disaprove. Humans realize that there is more to it than brute strength, the drakons do not.

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A sense of humour. This is observed in the Council Meeting, where the Drakons laugh at Salassdar's humiliation.

I suppose this, at least, counts as some kind of emotion. Whether or not it marks drakons as superior being I can't say.

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The ability to be creative. I've pointed out time and time again that the Takers/Drakons have constructed numerous fantastic variations of existing creations, and were responsible for bringing the Gazer into being.

Emperor's response? "They haven't made as many new creations as the Shapers!" Given that the Drakon's have only been existence for a fraction of the time that the Shapers have, that isn't such a huge shock.

In the time since the drakons have come into existence, the humans have come up with five (if your not counting Barzahl's, then still no less than three) all new creation types. You keep harping on the fact that the drakons are so much better than humans at shaping, then where are the products of this genius? The unbound? Bigger and shinier drakons? Please.

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Empathy for what they term as 'lesser species'. The Drakons as a species appear to have a maternal instinct to protect the serviles.

Of course you want to protect a source of labor. This is common sense, not empathy. Their treatment of serviles at Khima shows that they have no empathy what so ever.

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A sense of justice. Drakons are able to recognize that killing a creature merely for the crime of existing is unjust.

Hmm, yet they kill the unbound when they are finished with them. So just.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emp:

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A dictatorship? Yeah, real complex.

1. I'd argue that the form of government we observe in the Drakonian society is an oligarchy.

 

2. You seem to imply that dictatorships aren't complex. How are democracies, oligarchies, or aristocracies more or less complex than a dictatorship?

 

The mere existence of a dictatorship is not concrete proof that the political system is not complex. Ancient Rome was a dictatorship for at least 3 times in its history, including the rule under Caesar, and during the time of Hannibal. Yet I doubt you'd postulate that the political system of Ancient Rome during those times was 'not complex'.

 

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In the animal world, Ghaldring would be what we call an 'alpha male.'

In the animal world, Caesar would be what we call an 'alpha male'. In the animal world, Cromwell would have been what we call an 'alpha male'.

 

You're pretty much saying that since a society has a leader, it can't be complex. What a load of crock. Your arguments get weaker by the second.

 

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Salissar challenged the alpha male for leadership of the pack, and lost. Behold the complex political structure.

Salissar attempted to garner support from his fellow Drakons in the Council meetings. Ghaldring, through subtle manipulations, not only regained leadership in the eyes of the Drakons, but also managed to depose his younger, and stronger rival.

 

In the wild, the younger, stronger male usually becomes alpha male. However, in Drakonian society, we see the exact opposite. Ghaldring, a much older, wiser, and politically educated Drakon, is able to hold sway.

 

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Their system of honor is based on ritualized duels, another element taken from the animal world.

Goats duel, too, you know.

And? What's your point? The difference is that goats do not possess introspection, whereas Drakons do. Drakons don't duel because it is some sort of ingrained animalistic behaviour. They do so because they have a rigid code of honour, where it is proper to meet your opponent, one on one.

 

Also note that animals don't 'pay their respects' to defeated rivals. Yet we see Ghaldring do exactly that with Salassdar. Also, the dead Drakons remains are borne out of the room with respect by his fellow Drakons.

 

Have fun trying to demonstrate that such behaviour exists in 'dumb animals'.

 

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The assasination attempt was a sign of weakness,

Perhaps. But it was clear from the comments of the Drakon council that they condemned Salassdar's attacks because they were impolite. Otherwise they wouldn't have sought to compensate you.

 

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In the time since the drakons have come into existence, the humans have come up with five (if your not counting Barzahl's, then still no less than three) all new creation types.

The Takers and Drakons have invented numerous creation types. Once again, check out the Taker dumping grounds. And if you try to claim that they were all based on pre-existed models, I'd merely reply with the observation that so were the Wingbolt, Kyshakk and War Trall.

 

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Their treatment of serviles at Khima shows that they have no empathy what so ever.

No. What is does show is that the Drakons can sometimes put the priority of 'winning a war' above the comfort of the serviles. All great leaders of wars and revolutions sometimes need to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

 

I've put forward numerous examples which clearly demonstrate that Drakons do indeed feel empathy for others, which you have conveniently ignored. You can cite as many 'nasty' action of the Drakons are you want... the mere existence of even one expression of empathy by the Drakons invalidates your argument.

 

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Hmm, yet they kill the unbound when they are finished with them. So just.

We've already been over this. The Unbound aren't sapient. The Unbound apparently fit your own description of 'violent killing machines' who kill without rational thought. You might as well claim that chicken farming is genocide.

 

Why do you continue to repeat the same old BS arguments ad nauseum, when they have already been addressed?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

You keep harping on the fact that the drakons are so much better than humans at shaping, then where are the products of this genius? The unbound? Bigger and shinier drakons? Please.

You do realize that one of the Barzite plans for defeating the Shapers involved making a bunch of drakons, right?

 

Fenen, Radiant College:

 

Quote:

question = "How have you improved drayks?";

text1 = "_We have made drayks into drakons, of course. Soon, with the use of the incubation vats, we will make many drakons, and they will defend us from the Shaper Council._"

Dikiyoba.

[Questionmarks.]

took me a while to process it?

I knew what he was trying to say from the start,i just forgot to put it in the post,i should have just edited it...

But if you're going to call soemone something,why not just say the word,instead of going all the way around and using a totally different word that someone wouldn't think it would mean the word you're trying to say?

incompitent

stupid...

just say "stupid" in this case.

[-silver-]

I'm personally enjoying how the anti-Drakon arguer keeps dismissing things as ruses or lies by the Drakons. The argument seems to go that we have to accept every other quote in the game as a fact, except the ones inconvenient to his argument. If you open up the "game quotes aren't evidence because they might be lies" can of worms, it applies both ways. Then we don't know if Barzhal created anything ever, or if he just claims to. We don't know if the serviles built Khima, or if they just claim to. Suddenly, we don't know anything anymore, it might ALL be lies. It completely dissolves the ability to quote the game for _either side_ to start dismissing _some_ quotes, but not others, as lies.

[Cylon]

Have you ever tried to create art & culture while someone was trying to wipe you off the face of the earth?

 

I think maybe I will stop to paint a mural while the War Trall throws a boulder at my head and the Artilla shoots acid at me.

 

-------

Lt. to the Supreme Lord of the Noobs

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
1. I'd argue that the form of government we observe in the Drakonian society is an oligarchy.
2. You seem to imply that dictatorships aren't complex. How are democracies, oligarchies, or aristocracies more or less complex than a dictatorship?

1. No, the Rebellion ceases to function when its leader is challenged. Only when the challenger was dead could bussiness proceed. They can't seem to operate smoothly without a single driving force to guide them.
2. Stop asking stupid questions. Of course non-dictatorships are more complex than a dictatorship, that's what makes them so much less efficient.

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In the animal world, Caesar would be what we call an 'alpha male'. In the animal world, Cromwell would have been what we call an 'alpha male'.

Caesar came to power by gaining the love of the people, often by forgiving his political enemies. He then had to juggle both the Senate to remain legitimate as well as the triumvirate. The man was a political genius. Ghaldring came to power by being the biggest, strongest drakon. There really is no comparison. Cromwell came to power by using the parliament. Again, no comparison. Worst analogy ever.

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In the wild, the younger, stronger male usually becomes alpha male. However, in Drakonian society, we see the exact opposite. Ghaldring, a much older, wiser, and politically educated Drakon, is able to hold sway.

You think Salisaar is stronger than Ghaldring? Wrong again. "You come face to face with Ghaldring. Now, at last, you can see that his disinterest and confusion was just an act. He radiates awesome power. It's almost painful to be near him."

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Drakons don't duel because it is some sort of ingrained animalistic behaviour. They do so because they have a rigid code of honour, where it is proper to meet your opponent, one on one.

You can't keep saying you make supported claims and then turn around and post this crap.

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The Takers and Drakons have invented numerous creation types. Once again, check out the Taker dumping grounds. And if you try to claim that they were all based on pre-existed models, I'd merely reply with the observation that so were the Wingbolt, Kyshakk and War Trall.

To bad we were arguing about creativity here. Are you saying that three different kinds of drakons is more creative than three all new strains of creation?

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I've put forward numerous examples which clearly demonstrate that Drakons do indeed feel empathy for others, which you have conveniently ignored.

Would you be kind enough to remind me of these 'numerous examples?' None of the things in this thread prove anything, they've all been times when it was to the drakon's direct benefit to help the serviles. Don't confuse helping serviles out of the goodness of their hearts with helping temselves to preserve a work/fighting force. Drakons simply do not go out of their way to help anyone like, say, Guardian Kantor did.

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The Unbound aren't sapient.

It matters not. You said that drakons do not kill things for the crime of existing. You were wrong.

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You might as well claim that chicken farming is genocide.

I'm no expert, but I'm fairly certain that the point of chicken farming is to make sure the species thrives. I take back my earlier statement, this is the worst analogy ever. I can't believe I dignified it with a response.

Dikiyoba: You missed the point. We were arguing about which species was more creative when I made that statement. Since Barzahl created the drakons, I give him more credit than the drakons, who only really made bigger drakons.

Silver: I only made a comment about lying twice, and both times I was dead right. The first time when I called Ghaldring a liar, it turned out that someone had misquoted him. The second time when I called those gazers liars, it turned out that they were, in fact, lying. What they were saying was false. Proven so with game evidence. Go back and read if you didn't get it. Otherwise, if you can prove as ironclad as I did that someone is lying, be my guest.

[-silver-]

(just as a historical side-note: in Caesar's Rome, 'dictator' was a specific title granted by the Senate with specific duties and responsibilities -- while the word is the root of the modern word 'dictator', it meant Significantly different in nuance then than it does now).

[Kelandon]

As a quick addition: In Latin, dictator just means speaker. It was, as noted, a fairly normal position, but Julius Caesar got himself appointed dictator for life, which was unheard of, and that was the reason that he became unpopular enough with the senatorial class to get executed.

 

Julius Caesar was a pretty good politician (and a pretty good general), but Augustus Caesar was a far better politician and not a bad general himself. He did, of course, have his adopted father's experience to draw on, but Julius Caesar could've learned from Sulla, Catalina, and the others who had attempted to become king before him and failed.

[Retlaw May]

I think slightly more moderate than ET, and I guess this is why Waylander ignores posts like mine and Nalyd's... It is inconvienient for him to address us, he keeps with the more extreme version which he finds much easier to disclaim (which he isn't even doing a good job with that). The whole notion of what dictator means in latin and in english should not be an issue, it is a language argument.

 

And what is with Waylander's claim that if we say the energized things in G2 aren't creative than neither are the Wingbolt, Khyshack, and War Trall aren't creative? I'd like to first say that the things in there weren't all from the Takers, the other sects dumped their mad creations there too. And another thing is that the new creations the Shapers made weren't based off earlier creations like the ones in G2's dumping ground for crazy powerful creations.

[Student of Trinity]

Actually, that's something I've wondered about for some time. How did Augustus pull it off, turning a republic into an empire in republican form? As I understand it, he was not dictator. The dictatorship was an emergency measure Rome had used on rare occasions for centuries, and it had a very short term. Asking to be made dictator for life was too obvious, apparently. Rather, what I remember is that the only civil powers Augustus got the senate to confer on him were the 'tribunician' powers, namely personal immunity from prosecution plus a veto over any new proposed laws. All his other titles and offices -- including the title of 'Augustus' by which Octavian Caesar is better known -- were just honorific.

 

The office of tribune had been created a century or two before Augustus, in response to a sort of general strike by the entire working and middle classes. Several of them were elected for fixed terms, by the common people, whose interests they were supposed to defend. The tribunate was probably the first exercise in republican checking and balancing of powers. Evidently it was a bit too heavy handed. It checked the senate all right, but it was the means by which the republic became the empire. Especially once Octavian got himself appointed tribune for life.

 

What I'm fuzzy on is just how Octavian succeeded, where Marius, Sulla, Pompey and his uncle C. Julius before him all failed. All were generals whose troops were prepared to obey them against the government. Was Octavian just the last man standing, with everyone exhausted enough to prefer a stable dictatorship in a republican mask, rather than endure another decade of civil war? Was his military situation somehow superior to the others? Or was he clever in fashioning his republican mask out of the tribunate, instead of going for the dictatorship?

[Lord Safey]

Drakons in general are killing machines. Their goals reflect this. The geneforge in 2 and 3 where design for them and them alone. In geneforge 3 the gazer at the microscopes said that the Drakons want most of the changes going towards upgrading the drakons. Not into developing canisters or new creations. What ever it creativity and intelligence they have it’s at making themselves more able at killing. True due to nature of reproduction you come across a few that aren't but the threat of genocide prevent most from following that.

 

The serviles where design to be obedient and the only ones that aren't descendents of Sucia Island. The reason they aren't obedient was that those that varied from the norm had no reason or force to purge them. So genetic variants that where more independent survived because they where in a situation where they need to be independent over those who where more prone to be dependent on the shapers where at disadvantage and their power waned. Till eventually you got the serviles we have now. Keep in mind it took hundreds of years of breeding on their own to change that.

Humans are survivors when it takes little effort to survive our motives greatly vary. The human part of the rebellion the individuals had many reason for joining but after joining they fought for survival. The shapers fought the rebellion for survival.

Is it possible for drakons to change their nature, give centuries it may be possible. Drakons are better fighters but humans are better survivors and this is what makes humans superior

[Suspicious Vlish]

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1. No, the Rebellion ceases to function when its leader is challenged.

1. Hyperbole. The Rebellion continues to function, despite the power struggles. 'Operation Unbound' was proceeding, despite the rivalry between Salassdar and Ghalrding.

2. Merely because a political system falls in shambles once there is a power struggle in no way demonstrates that it is 'non-complex'. In fact, I'd argue that such a trait shows considerable complexity.

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Only when the challenger was dead could bussiness proceed. They can't seem to operate smoothly without a single driving force to guide them.

Even if this were true, I fail to see how this supports your claim that the Drakons political system lacked 'complexity'. Great Britain's history has shown us time and time again that the country can't operate smoothly without a monarch at its head.
Yet despite this, Great Britian had a highly complex political system, with a House of Commons and Lords.

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2. Stop asking stupid questions. Of course non-dictatorships are more complex than a dictatorship, that's what makes them so much less efficient.

Well, no, it's NOT a stupid question. You have yet to justify your assertion that dictatorships are always less complex than non-dictatorships (such as anarchy and libertarian communism).

Your argument pretty much consists of "Dictatorships are less complex than non-dictatorships BECAUSE I SAY SO! What, you're questioning me? Are you stupid?"

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. Ghaldring came to power by being the biggest, strongest drakon.

No. Wrong again. Ghaldring came to power because he won the popular support of the Drakons, and because of his political manueverings. Salassdar was part of a new generation of Drakon... younger, stronger, and more arrogant.

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You think Salisaar is stronger than Ghaldring? Wrong again. "You come face to face with Ghaldring. Now, at last, you can see that his disinterest and confusion was just an act. He radiates awesome power. It's almost painful to be near him."

When you post such absurdities, I almost lose my patience. However, then I remember that your generation can't read.

Nothing in your quote demonstrates that Salassdar was more or less powerful than Ghaldring. The assertion that Ghaldring was very powerful does not equate to him being more powerful than Salassdar. Try again.

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Cromwell came to power by using the parliament. Again, no comparison. Worst analogy ever.

As usual, you miss the point, and are obfuscating the issue. It doesn't matter how Cromwell came to power (although it certainly involved bloodshed). All that matters is that he was the 'alpha-male' of the pack, and pretty much ruled Britain with an iron hand.

Hell, Hitler was voted High Chancellor by Parliament... will you try to claim that he wasn't a dictator?

In fact, your observations continue to vindicate my arguments. Examples such as Cromwell and Hitler show that dictatorships can indeed have avery complex political structure. Quite often, dictatorships are implemented and sustained via complex manipulations in the political body (ie. Parliament), or 'behind the scenes' manipulation (the Medici Family of Florence).

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You can't keep saying you make supported claims and then turn around and post this crap.

Hint: Merely calling someone's argument 'crap' doesn't amount to an effective rebuttal. Try again, kid.

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To bad we were arguing about creativity here. Are you saying that three different kinds of drakons is more creative than three all new strains of creation?

Once again, you're obfuscating this issue. You're denying that the Drakon's possess creativity. I responded by pointing out that they have made new creations, even if they are alterations of pre-existing creations. Whether they are more creative than humans is really subjective opinion.

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Would you be kind enough to remind me of these 'numerous examples? [of Drakonian empathy]'

Nope. Go back over my previous post and try reading them again. Once again, I'll be patient, because I know that your generation has some trouble comprehending sentences more than 5 words long.

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The Unbound aren't sapient.
-------------------------------------------------

It matters not. You said that drakons do not kill things for the crime of existing. You were wrong.

For goodness sake, I've clarified what I meant in previous posts, and on previous threads. And that is, Drakons don't aim to genocide sapient beings. Why are you still picking at this? I wasn't 'wrong', I merely needed to elaborate, and I have done so numerous times.

Hint: If your opponent tells you that he was never arguing that point, you don't attempt to refute it. It just makes you look like an idiot.

Quote:

I'm no expert, but I'm fairly certain that the point of chicken farming is to make sure the species thrives. I take back my earlier statement, this is the worst analogy ever. I can't believe I dignified it with a response.

For once I agree with you. It's wasn't the best analogy to demonstrate the concept of 'genocide' and sentient species. Either way, except for a small proportion of society, we don't condemn chicken farming as the 'mass murder' of chickens, precisely because they aren't sapient.

Perhaps a more appropriate example is the Dodo on Mauritius. The Dodo was driven to extinction by the Dutch, but I hardly hear anyone label their destruction as 'genocide'. Which just demonstrates that the term 'genocide' doesn't apply to non-sapient species.

[Xaiya]

A hyperbole is an exageration.

[Suspicious Vlish]

I know. It's hyperbole to claim that the Rebellion stopped functioning when there was rivalry between Ghaldring and Salassdar.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
The whole notion of what dictator means in latin and in english should not be an issue, it is a language argument.

If you think you can conduct an argument without using language, you're welcome to try.

Quote:

And another thing is that the new creations the Shapers made weren't based off earlier creations like the ones in G2's dumping ground for crazy powerful creations.

Actually, the creation specs you see on loading screens mention that the wingbolt is based on the artila.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
Merely because a political system falls in shambles once there is a power struggle in no way demonstrates that it is 'non-complex'. In fact, I'd argue that such a trait shows considerable complexity.

I'd like to hear that arguement.

Quote:

Great Britain's history has shown us time and time again that the country can't operate smoothly without a monarch at its head. Yet despite this, Great Britian had a highly complex political system, with a House of Commons and Lords.

Is it bad analogy week or something? Does Ghaldring have some kind of parliament that I don't know about? And what exactly do you think the monarch of Great Britain does, anyway? I'll tell you: nothing! Figurehead. Has been for centuries.

Dictatorships: I'm not going to waste time explaining to you how governments work. If you really don't understand, look it up. It doesn't matter anyway, we are talking about which species if superior. Are you saying that the ability to have a dictatorship is superior to the ability to form the governments that humanity has come up with?

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No. Wrong again. Ghaldring came to power because he won the popular support of the Drakons, and because of his political manueverings.

When has the game ever said anything about any of this? Stop making things up, please.

Quote:

The assertion that Ghaldring was very powerful does not equate to him being more powerful than Salassdar.

Greta: "The youngest do not always recognize how powerful Ghaldring is."

Neither does Waylander, apparently. What exactly makes you think Salissar is stronger? I'm very curious as to why you would think that.

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Examples such as Cromwell and Hitler show that dictatorships can indeed have avery complex political structure.

Sure, too bad Ghaldring's dictatorship is nothing like any of theirs. Stop comparing apples and oranges.

Quote:

Merely calling someone's argument 'crap' doesn't amount to an effective rebuttal.

I was actually calling it unsupported. Way to conviniently ignore that part, or did you not understand? Should I spell things out for you?

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You're denying that the Drakon's possess creativity. I responded by pointing out that they have made new creations, even if they are alterations of pre-existing creations. Whether they are more creative than humans is really subjective opinion.

So your subjective opinion is that bigger drakons and gazers are just as creative as all new war tralls, wingbolts, and kyshaks? Is that what you really believe? Do you seriously think that is what anyone believes?

Quote:

Me: Would you be kind enough to remind me of these 'numerous examples? [of Drakonian empathy]'
You: Nope.

I didn't think so. I actually have reviewed the examples in this thread, and all of them have been times when it was in the drakons' best interest to help those othe creations. Not once was it an inconvenience to them, either. Those examples are poor support for drakons being empathic.

Quote:

Which just demonstrates that the term 'genocide' doesn't apply to non-sapient species.

So, since drakons practice driving species to extinction (the unbound) that makes them better than the Shapers who practice genocide. I suppose this could be correct, though it's not exactly the strongest arguement for drakon superiority, is it?

Quote:

If you think you can conduct an argument without using language, you're welcome to try.

Well, you could just fight the person to the death. That's how drakons resolve arguments, anyway.

[Suspicious Vlish]

*sigh* This has just become ridiculous, and a waste of my time. I've decided not to dignify any of Emp's or Retlew's future comments with a response.

[Questionmarks.]

I don't think i can say anything else.

[Sudanna]

*Grits teeth* Then why. . . the hell. . . did you post. . . here?

 

And, victory! Waylander has given up. We're done here.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I'd like to thank my supporters. Even though I didn't need you, it certainly was fun to have numbers on my side for once.

[Retlaw May]

HAHAHAHA, Waylander you never responded to any of my evidence or even Nalyd the Dead's. You speak of me sticking fingers in my ears and yet you somehow manage to stick fingers in your ears and cover your eyes at the same time. Too bad you can't do it to your mouth also. Waylander, you and ET are the same person if you really look at it, but if you really think about it, I think that you hate ET because you see yourself in him. I think you are probably worse than him in way of single mindedness.

 

Oh sorry, I forget that your generation has trouble reading on these newfangled machines. Maybe that is why you fail to respond to so much evidence and site only a few lacking judgements of ET's.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Now that I've added Emp and Retlew to my ignore list, I'm quite free to continue discussion with the more rational posters on this forum.

 

The initial topic, before this thread was derailed, was whether Drakons are superior to humans/other sapient creations.

 

Questions? Comments?

[Lord Safey]

The question would be easier to detirmine if you told us which qualties would detirmine superiorty.

[Suspicious Vlish]

That's up to you to decide. I'm asking you the question, after all!

[Stillness]

I enjoyed this thread. When you started it you said simple question with a complex answer. Well predicted. This has actually given me a much deeper appreciation of the depth in this game. I also view the drakons differently now.

 

In hindsight I think we could have gone about things differently. "Superior" is subjective, but it can be qualified if you get to specifics. You could for example break down all the categories in which one species would be superior to another: physical stregnth, shaping, intellect, magical ability, artistic ability, adaptability, variety in personality, empathy, honor, and whatever else we could think of. The key would be dealing with these seperately and assigning points to them. The problem would be that some things would not be as important as others and some would overlap, so you'd have to agree on how much each would be worth. Probably not as fun, but more conclusive.

 

BTW, simply wearing your opponent down by making him repeat himself, restating unsupported claims, and not yeilding to reason when you're clearly wrong so that he doesn't want to talk anymore doesn't constitute you the winner. My uncle uses these tactics all the time. That's probably why I tired before Waylander.

[Lord Safey]

drakons are very good fighters and their very intellegent to those ends but not much else.The only incident I know of a drakon useing something other the brute force is when Ghaldring tricks that upstart into fighting you. Humans on the other hand while not as good at fighting are decent at it. As they are a good at a lot of other things. Humans are adapters they are what the need to be when they need to be. Drakons are fighters when the need fight, make peace, farm, sail, trade, engage ind diplomacy, and craft items. Every thing that you pc observes them do observes their single minded focus on this.

 

edit: simply put I base supreiorty on adabtily and from what I have obsevered from drakons in the game humans appear to be far more adaptable

[Suspicious Vlish]

Stillness:

Quote:

BTW, simply wearing your opponent down by making him repeat himself, restating unsupported claims, and not yeilding to reason when you're clearly wrong so that he doesn't want to talk anymore doesn't constitute you the winner.

So Emp is maintaining that he, uhhh, won?

 

Fascinating. I guess if he defines winning as 'refusing to concede a point, while bludgeoning your opponent with the same refuted arguments and irrelevancies ad nauseum until he tires', then I guess you could say he won.

 

What finally made me realize that any discussion with Emp about the issue is pointless is the simple fact that he makes his opinion about the Drakons an axiom.

 

He essentially re-interprets (or, if it can not be re-interpreted... ignores) every fact so that his axiom is not threatened. We have observed two excellent examples of this:

 

1. When he stubbornly refused to admit that the Drakons designed Northforge to accomodate for art.

 

His attempt to weasel out of that one amounted to this: "What? There is room for art in Northforge? It MUST have been the serviles, because I'm pretty sure that Drakons can't appreciate art. Despite the fact that its clear that the Drakons designed Northforge. Hence Drakons don't appreciate art."

 

Circular logic, anyone?

 

2. When he re-interpets any apparently 'compassioniate' act as having a selfish ulterior motive.

 

"Ghaldring says he wants to protect the serviles with the Unbound? Why, he must be lying, because Drakons don't feel empathy! Hence there is no evidence that suggests that Drakons feel empathy!

 

Again, circular logic anyone?

 

The final straw is when Emp goes introducing irrelevancies in an order to obfuscate the argument. There are numerous examples of this on the thread.

 

So essentially, I can't be bothered to waste any more of my precious time in a futile argument, on a muggy hot Friday. Emp is welcome to boast that he 'won' this confrontation, if it makes him feel a little better inside.

 

I doubt he has much else to be proud of outside this forum, so why not let him have his little 'victory'?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I hope Waylander doesn't think that ignoring me is going to stop me from responding.

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:

It MUST have been the serviles, because I'm pretty sure that Drakons can't appreciate art.

No, I said it must have been serviles because I'm pretty sure drakons don't do manual labor. I can't prove that the serviles put those art spaces there for themselves, and you can't prove that the drakons did. That's why I sort of just let this one go. Don't you have anything better?

Quote:

Ghaldring says he wants to protect the serviles with the Unbound?

It has already been pointed out twice that this was someone's misquote. It's not that Ghaldring was lying, it's that he simply never said this.

 

I'll sum up some reasons why humans are superior to drakons, since you all seem to have forgotten them.

 

-Humans are responsible for every single base creation. Even in the time since drakons have existed, they have come up with five (not including the drakons themselves, which they also created). The drakons contributions to the shaping art consist of minor upgrades of existing creations, the culmination of which is the unbound. This shows drakons have less creativity as well as less skill.

 

-Humans can create and control drakons. Drakons can not create or control humans. This shows that drakons have weaker minds.

 

-Humans in the game like to surround themselves with art, and, while I can't prove anything, the lack of any art whatsoever in drakon structures has been noted.

 

-Drakons constantly shape themselves to be better and better. The humans of the Shaper Empire refuse to do so, remaining pure and unchanged, and yet they are still beating the drakons in the war as of the begining of Geneforge 4. This is a testament to human strength and skill. Whether this shows the drakons are weaker or just less competant I can not say for sure.

 

-Humans can be anything, from farmer to ruler, from merchant to mage. Every single drakon encountered in the game is either a fighter, or in rare cases, a horder. They are single-minded, which makes sense because they are designed to be that way. For those that say 'they must all be that way because they are fighting for survival' remember that it was already noted that the serviles of Khima still found a way to live as respectable beings, despite the fact that their lives were in danger. The drakons never once show interest in anything other than war (or hoarding) and so I feel that I can conclude from that that they are incapable of those thoughts, and thus inferior to humans.

 

-Claims that the drakons show empathy are unfounded. They treat other creations, humans, and even each other like crap. The fact that they would kill Greta to test the unbound is my favorite example of this, it even uses the words "without emotion." The opposition has yet to give an example of a time when drakons helped someone other than themselves when it was not to their own immediate benefit.

 

-The human geneforge was suprior to the drakon ones, despite the fact that the drakons had access to 200 more years worth of technology. The former turned its users into empire-forging deities, while the latter simply made ur-drakons, armies of which are still having trouble fighting unmodified shapers.

 

-Drakon are terrible at politics and government. They have a dictatorship with Ghaldring at the top. When he is challenged, they spend all their time arguing (I can't say that the Rebellion ceased to function but I can say that the high command was all but useless during that time). How do they resolve their arguments? Do they talk it out and come to an agreement like civilized humans, and unite in the name of their common cause? No, one of them has to die for things to go back to normal. They solve problems with violence, it is the only thing they know (well, that and greed).

[Student of Trinity]

FWIW my quick read of this debate is that both sides have made good points, but have gotten too frustrated with each other to acknowledge it. I think the problem is that 'superior' is ill-defined. It's like looking at two trees, one tall and spindly, one round and bushy, and asking which one is bigger.

 

In some respects drakons obviously are 'superior'. Physically, for instance. In others they are obviously inferior. They have much less history, for example; their entire present society is mostly younger than Ghaldring, and their Taker precursors go back no more than a century or so. Their population is also clearly much smaller than that of humans.

 

I don't think the games provide enough information to assess this question in any kind of generality. A new, small culture of humans, formed and continuing in a war of extermination, would have many of the limitations we see in the drakons' culture. I suspect that, because in this war the drakons' main weapon has been the reshaping of their race for military supremacy, drakons may well be more narrowly and rigidly specialized than humans. They may excel in violence, and be doomed to lag in other areas. If this turns out to be true, it will be a situation poorly summarized by calling either side 'superior'; and at present the games do not prove or disprove this specialization theory, anyway.

 

And the reshaping issue may render the whole discussion moot in another way. If 'superior' is ill defined, so also are 'drakon', and 'human'. The human and drakon sprites stay fixed because of game engine limitations, but continuous self-shaping is effectively redefining humanity and drakonity alike.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
They may excel in violence, and be doomed to lag in other areas.

SoT, I agree with a lot of what you said, but was curious as to whether you feel that drakons are any more violent than humans? I saw this argument from a few folks, but didn't see it myself. Not debating, just wondering.

I hope we get to see more of drakon society in the next game. Maybe it would conclusively answer this question of superiority for some. In my opionion the authors intent is clear already.

[Suspicious Vlish]

I also wonder exactly how Drakons are more warlike than humans? The only reason the Shapers weren't at war prior to the Rebellion was due to the fact that they had already crushed all opposition.

 

Unless you count the Sholai, who are waaayyy across the sea.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

We say drakons are more warlike because it is all they ever do. Serviles fight for their survival as much as drakons do, yet they tire of it and often attempt to live on their own, away from conflict, something a drakon has never done. Drakons are also more aggressive, as can be seen by the fact that you can goad most of the drakons you meet in the game into a fight with relative ease.

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the Shapers weren't at war prior to the Rebellion was due to the fact that they had already crushed all opposition.

Does it ever say this in the game, or is this more fabricated crap?

[nikki.]

It does say, in game, that the Shapers rule both continents completely, and kill anybody who stands up to them.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I know they rule everything, but where does it say they kill anybody who stands up to them?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

No, I said it must have been serviles because I'm pretty sure drakons don't do manual labor. I can't prove that the serviles put those art spaces there for themselves, and you can't prove that the drakons did. That's why I sort of just let this one go. Don't you have anything better?

Okay, where does in the game does it say that the serviles did all the manual work for the drakons, and where does it say that serviles have such an appreciation for art that they would design for it even with drakons breathing over their shoulders? (The Takers in G1 smashed Shaper art, after all. Though it was mostly motivated by their hatred of all things by Shapers, it shows they don't have much appreciation for art. They weren't razing old Shaper buildings and replacing them with their own or destroying Shaper records.) If you can't provide those sorts of quotes, then you're assuming too much.

 

Quote:

I know they rule everything, but where does it say they kill anybody who stands up to them?

The G1 intro gives something about anyone attempting to learn Shaper arts without Shaper permission is killed either by a Guardian in the day or an Agent at night, and repeatedly states later on that all outsiders in Barred lands must be killed. It's pretty clear anyone who step too far out of line is dead.

 

Dikiyoba.