Are Drakons superior beings?

[Aeshi]

This is beginning to go off-topic

 

P.S.ambidextrous FTW!

[Emperor Tullegolar]

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Originally written by Stillness:
What does variety have to do with war anyway?

It's called combined arms . People who use it win wars.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
What does variety have to do with war anyway?

It's called combined arms . People who use it win wars.

It's been pointed out that the drakons do just that. He seems to be referring to the appearance of their creations though and not their function.

[Morior]

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What does variety have to do with war anyway? The idea is efficiency. Any engineer will tell you that they want to use the same materials and resources for as many different jobs as possible. Making something completely new uses energy and is to be avoided.

Very good point, and one that I don't think I can rebutt. So I guess I have to accept it.

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The drakons are the brains of the operation. I can't see how the guy tightening bolts on the incubation vats matters in this discussion.

Yes. Who needs mechanics? I know what a car looks like, I can figure the rest out. Who needs people to build computers? I know what they look like and what they end up doing, so I can figure out the rest.

And at the risk of being labelled politically incorrect, I would have to say that your average Pakinson's sufferer will accomplish less than your average healthy individual, and would be forced by the disease into inferiority by most of the standards used in this thread, by no fault of their own. Please don't flame me.

[Stillness]

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Originally written by Morior:
Yes. Who needs mechanics? I know what a car looks like, I can figure the rest out. Who needs people to build computers? I know what they look like and what they end up doing, so I can figure out the rest.

No, I agree that no man is an island. humans and drakons need others. What we're takilng about is shaping though. The Unbound are designed and shaped by drakons. You need machanics, janitors, metalurgists, etc, but shaping is king and the drakons have mastered that art. They are not inferior to humans. That is my point.

[Sudanna]

How does being sufficient only in Shaping not make the Drakons inferior? The Serviles do almost all of the menial labor, cleaning, cooking, farming, etc. The Drakons all hold high positions as military personnel, researchers, etc. Without the other creations, Drakons would collapse in upon themselves because of infighting over "It's your turn to take out the garbage!"

 

With humans, the ones incapable of higher studies support those who are, and are for the most part okay with it. Of course, every peasant dreams of being a Shaper, but they usually realize that it isn't going to happen and carve out a nice little life for themselves. The Rebels are those who were either not recognized for their ability, are incapable of admitting their own shortcomings, or have been morally wronged by the Shapers(Who usually had a good reason to do what they did).

[Lord Safey]

Well if thats the case you really can't compare Drakons and Humans as far as superiorty. Humans can serve any role in society. Drakons serve in the leadership roles, while the drayks and serviles take other roles of soceity. To be more accruate it should be called Drakon/Dryak/servile/rebel human soceity. As an indiviual I think it depends on 3 things 1 your point of view, 2 what feild you considering, 3 that specific indivuial. My main is that everyone gives to much credit to drakons you forget the role serviles and dryaks play. The rebellion is notjust the drakons. The drakons as a race are not cabale of standing alone.

[Sudanna]

And yet the Drakons virtually condemned the human Rebellion to death. They let the Geneforge sit alone and unused in a dusty back room. No human recruiting is taking place, and those that are left are given menial or useless tasks. The Drayks themselves, ancestors of the Drakons, are looked upon as amusing but worthless children. Soon enough, the Drakons will stand alone and die. Some Drayks have already rejected Drakon rule (Somewhere around Northforge, likely to the north).

[Stillness]

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Originally written by Spokesman of the Dead:
How does being sufficient only in Shaping not make the Drakons inferior?

First the drakons can't shape, now that's all they're good at. You guys are a riot.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nalyd:

 

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How does being sufficient only in Shaping not make the Drakons inferior? The Serviles do almost all of the menial labor, cleaning, cooking, farming, etc. The Drakons all hold high positions as military personnel, researchers, etc. Without the other creations, Drakons would collapse in upon themselves because of infighting over "It's your turn to take out the garbage!"

The Shapers and their strongest supporters wouldn't survive without serviles to do their menial labor either. How long do you think their society would remain stable without serviles cleaning, cooking, building, working the caravans, farming, and delivering messages?

 

Dikiyoba.

[Sudanna]

It would be less easy, of course, but the humans and Shapers could of course manage it. The Drakons, due to their arrogance and pride, would rather fight and squabble about who does the hard work and who gets to sit back and chew on Shaper bones.

[Stillness]

I think this thread is dead.

[Sudanna]

You're just trying to worm out of it because you're losing.

[Morior]

Dead? But we haven't beat nephil vs. slith yet!

 

Seriously, it doesn't look good when you try to declare the argument over. It seems like you know you're beat but are trying to save face. I may be misreading your intent, but it does seem like you're giving up.

 

And you're right. We are a riot. (I never claimed that we were always logical. Just that you weren't.)

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nalyd:

 

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It would be less easy, of course, but the humans and Shapers could of course manage it.

Shaper society has been using and abusing servile labor for over 200 years. The Shapers are almost as arrogant as the drakons and have been telling non-Shapers what do to and what not to do for a similarly long period of time. This would not be a simple transition in the slightest. Do you honestly think people like Master Thell and his sons wouldn't argue and cause problems if they suddenly had to start doing their own work, or if they had to pay employees to work the farm for them? He only stops mistreating the serviles because you terrify him.

 

And if the humans can figure it out, why not the drakons? The drakons have the exact same need to eat and to get filth cleaned up, etc. as the Shapers do. Once they realized food was running low, they would figure something out real quick.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lord Safey]

drakons have never had to do it so we don't know. Though we do know that humans once did everything themselves and some humans do menial work. Humans have done it before albeit a long time ago. The drakons have never done it. The pass of the duty of meeting with lesser specices of the rebellion like a dead raccon. The only building they do is the heavy lifting (which is closet they every come to meneial work in all of geneforge history) They make good for skilled labor granted but menial work isn't their thing. Plus they like to argue a lot. So I imagine lots of argueing would go on about how do the menial work. I have seen nothing to show drakons would even condier it.

 

edit: honestly can you imagine a drakon sweeping a floor

[Sudanna]

The thing is, the people like Master Thell would either adjust or be forced to do the work themselves. The Drakons would rather fight and die. They have the same exact need, but they don't have the capabilities.

[rantalot]

A lot is being said about drakons being left by other rebel divisions, but not all drayks are rebelling and lets look at shapers and you will see the very same internal rebellion.

 

This rebellion however is where drakons are superior. There is no way in hell shapers will team up with the drayks but drakons teamed up with rebel humans.

[Sudanna]

The Drayks that haven't left outright are disgruntled and mistreated. The humans and serviles are pretty much dead. Where do you see internal strife in the Shapers? The Shapers teamed up with a Geneforge warped Servile, if you choose to play as a Servile.

[rantalot]

How many shapers switched over to the rebellions side? I consider that evidence of an internal strife. Yes Alwan accepts your character no matter what he/she is but can you imagine the shapers counsel accepting a few hundred drayks as allies?

[Morior]

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There is no way in hell shapers will team up with the drayks but drakons teamed up with rebel humans.

If they knew what the drakons were capable of? After the Unbound? I'll admit that it's less likely to happen than not, but a team-up is possible. You can't just assume that it would never happen. (Of course, the Shapers would probably betray the drayks as soon as the drakons were dealt with.)

[rantalot]

I think shapers would keep their words IF they did ally with drayka, but I highly doubt they would ever consider it. They might team up with an individual drayk, but to ally with a drayk tribe or two…you seriously think that’s possible?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Stillness:
No, I agree that no man is an island. humans and drakons need others.

Humans do not need drakons.

Yes, if the serviles were suddenly gone, human society would go into a panic, and it would take some time to get back on track. The point is, it will get back on track because that's how humanity works. If the drakons did not have creations to do their manual labor, they would likely get very violent at first. Then, it's not certain whether or not they could cope at all with their poor ability to do fine labor like writing. Humans can tighten bolts if they need to, the game hints a few times (shaper ending) that drakons can not.

The point is that drakons need other creations to compliment them, humans do not. Drakons are one-sided, good at only certain things, they were designed to be this way.

[rantalot]

But emp we don’t know this. Yes we are almost certain that drakons would have more problems then humans, but we don’t know it would be that bad. Eventually a drakon or two will figure out that if they start up a farm they can sell the food at high prices and build up their hoard or something like that. Now about bolts…..can’t they just reshape them selves? It won’t be the first time.

[vld]

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How does being sufficient only in Shaping not make the Drakons inferior?

Thats like saying that Drakons are superior because they are physicaly stronger or because they have claws so they don`t need weapons for fighting. Yes, thats a minus for Drakons but it`s not like Shapers are perfect in every way.

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The Drakons, due to their arrogance and pride, would rather fight and squabble about who does the hard work and who gets to sit back and chew on Shaper bones.

Assuming much?

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Seriously, it doesn't look good when you try to declare the argument over. It seems like you know you're beat but are trying to save face. I may be misreading your intent, but it does seem like you're giving up.

You are blind or something? It`s pointless to argue when opponent ignores your "facts" and uses double standarts.

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edit: honestly can you imagine a drakon sweeping a floor

And i can`t imagine Monarch washing the toilet.

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The thing is, the people like Master Thell would either adjust or be forced to do the work themselves. The Drakons would rather fight and die.

Assuming much without any "facts"?

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You can't just assume that it would never happen.

So we can`t assume that Shapers wouldn`t accept dryaks but you can assume that Drakons wouldn`t do any work? Double standarts?

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But emp we don’t know this.

It`s pointless, he knows better than the game.

[rantalot]

I have only played G3 and G4 so I need to ask a question. Has anyone ever reshaped themselves to appear different? Or can they only make them selves stronger and bigger? I am kind of curious if the drakons can give them selves hands because if they can’t that sort of is a major flaw.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by vld:

Quote:

edit: honestly can you imagine a drakon sweeping a floor

And i can`t imagine Monarch washing the toilet.

Way to miss the point completely. Notice the person you quoted was refering to all drakons. You were refering to a single human. You can certainly imagine a human cleaning toilets or sweeping floors, can't you?

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So we can`t assume that Shapers wouldn`t accept dryaks but you can assume that Drakons wouldn`t do any work? Double standarts?

Shapers would not accept drayks, there is no assumption here. The facts are that their existence is illegal. As for drakons not doing any work, this is indeed an assumption. I don't think the question is whether or not they would work, the question is could they? They lack fine motor skills, as has already been pointed out.

To answer rantalot's question: no one has ever shaped a physical change to themselves directly. Barzahl did create the drakons from old drayks, so I suppose it is possible to change someone. However, all he really did was grow them bigger and stronger in some vats, a specific change such as making hands more agile would be more difficult, I imagine. It would be easier to just make the next generation of drakons with better hands, which should be easy enough, but the drakons have never shown any interest in something that would not give them an advantage over enemies in battle.

[Stillness]

Yeah, you all are right. I am giving up. I can't argue against your drakons-don't-clean-toilets theory. I lose.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Shapers would not accept drayks, there is no assumption here. The facts are that their existence is illegal.

So are Geneforge-altered independent serviles, but the Shapers are willing to ally with one of those and even let him remain in a position of some influence after the rebellion is crushed.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Sure, but until there is a single drayk or drakon working for the Shapers, I can say with certainty that they do not accept them.

 

I think the Shapers allow serviles to join them because they are more moldable. Drakons, in their single-mindedness, would never work for Shapers. The fact that serviles would work for either side shows an adaptability that drakons lack. Drakons are blinded by their arrogance, hindering their alliances with other creations and humans. The Shapers recognize this and are willing to adapt themselves by allowing serviles to join them.

 

Oh, and Stillness gave up.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lord Safey:

 

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honestly can you imagine a drakon sweeping a floor

If they had no one else to do it, then yes.

 

Originally by Nalyd:

 

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The Drayks that haven't left outright are disgruntled and mistreated. The humans and serviles are pretty much dead. Where do you see internal strife in the Shapers? The Shapers teamed up with a Geneforge warped Servile, if you choose to play as a Servile.

The drakons only started their excessive arrogance and mistreating the drayks and serviles a few months before you arrived, once the drakons realized how badly the rebellion was losing, just like the Shapers are only willing to work with you because they're losing.

 

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

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Humans can tighten bolts if they need to, the game hints a few times (shaper ending) that drakons can not.

Where? I just went through a Shaper ending and saw nothing like that. Quotes, please.

 

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I don't think the question is whether or not they would work, the question is could they? They lack fine motor skills, as has already been pointed out.

They don't lack find motor skills. They just aren't as good as them as humans are. They can write, even if it is large clumsy handwriting (and drakons are larger than humans--their handwriting is going to be larger as well). They are capable of doing the work, especially if they had drakon-sized tools to work with.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Sudanna]

The Shapers do not need you to win. They already have the Rebels in almost full retreat before you came along. Nalyd once stood passively by and made sure that nothing attacked his singleton PC while the final expedition of Shapers fought the Rebel defense. The Shapers lost two Thornslingers, a Wingbolt, and a Warrior. The Rebels lost.

 

The Drakons have huge unwieldy claws. They can barely hold anything without shredding it into confetti. Good for battle, but not life.

[Retlaw May]

If the Drakons are handicapped only by lack of tools their size, then why don't/didn't they make some their size?

[Lord Safey]

Trakovite ending shows that drakons need the other speicces of the rebellion. Since the humans invented shapeing it is safe to assume they existed without creations and could do so again. The drakons have always had other creations augment them. In all their time they neveeer once tried to modify themselves to do otherwise. I remeber once your pc comes across a tribe of battle alphas thats not doing so well becuase all they reall know how to do is fight. Your pc tells them how to do menial work and they take right too. The drakons can't even do that. For all their might they are stopped in their tracks when the rest of rebellion refuses to help them.

[Morior]

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quote:
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edit: honestly can you imagine a drakon sweeping a floor
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And i can`t imagine Monarch washing the toilet.

ET has already pointed out the fallacy in this, but I'd like to add that this seems suspiciously like double standards to me. If we pointed out one war-crazy drakon to prove that all drakons are war-crazy, you'd (rightfully) shout us down. When you do the same things to humans, not a peep from your side.

Also, if we make a mistake, we're ignoring facts. If you make a mistake, you're- actually, you haven't even tried to justify it yet, or admitted your mistake. It's as if it never happened.

I'll admit that if their survival was at stake, drakons probably would eventually stoop to menial labor. (Although the transition would be smoother with humans.)

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Shapers would not accept drayks, there is no assumption here. The facts are that their existence is illegal.

So are the Awakened, but if you run from Sucia Island in G1 without doing anything to Goettsch or Trajkov, the Shapers ally with the Awakened. And the Awakened never change their beliefs.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Morior:

 

Quote:

So are the Awakened, but if you run from Sucia Island in G1 without doing anything to Goettsch or Trajkov, the Shapers ally with the Awakened. And the Awakened never change their beliefs.

But there is plenty of evidence in G4 that the Shapers still do not accept the drayks.

 

General Alwan about Shorass: "Of course, he is a drayk, so he is marked for death no matter what he believes. Drayks are Barred. He must die."

 

Dikiyoba.

[Morior]

Something I did not know. Thanks.

[Lord Safey]

If you go with the trakovite ending the drakons abilty to make the unbound are destroyed. The want to make the unbound desperately but because they can't/won't do menial work and the rebellion is willing to provide it. They can't build it. Also you can make a list of things that are beneath a drakon(due to pride) sumbiting to a human(or lesser creation),menial work (with exception of heavy lifting and only then if benfits them directly). Their are example of a drakon killing himself before doing some of these things (when you duel that upstart drakon and you come close to controling him)prehaps. I think you under estimate the drakons level of arrogance.

[Sudanna]

The duel suicide is understandable. The Drakons fought hard for their rights to be independent, and they wouldn't give that up for anything.

[Lord Safey]

It is, put it shows how far they will go to avoid something they find distastful. Prehaps they wouldn't take as extrem measures to avoid stuff that isn't distastful. The point is someone need to due menial work of repearing the creation vats for the unbound. As desperate as the drakons where to do that they found it couldn't be done with out the rest of the rebellion. In my opinion this makes them most inferior sapient species on the game. SErviels can serve all roles of soceity, humans can, even dryaks can, and to leaser degree so do gazers. These species can exist by themselves drakons can not.

[Sudanna]

And Gazers don't need to worry about menial labor because they are, presumably, telekinetic. Look in the Gazers workshop north of Agent Yngrid.

[Aeshi]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

What's that a picture of anyway?

[Retlaw May]

I think its some sort of German victory poster...