Are Drakons superior beings?

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Maybe you should check the poll and see what the majority really thinks.

I think he means the majority are reasonable, whatever their opinion is. I do wonder what the results would be if the poll included all three positions, though, not just waylander's.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Sir Spiff, all non-Geneforge nonsense aside, Barzahl created drakons. Humans created all new creation templates.

[Sudanna]

Besides, the Robocratic Moonmen are better than the USA.

[Retlaw May]

From what I hear, I doubt Waylander would consider anyone who votes for humans as superior as "reasonable". But what is reason to the unreasonable? And (though it is probably repetitive to say this) what is reasonable to Waylander?

[Lord Safey]

Those out their who think Drakons are superior? Why?

[Sudanna]

*Angry choking sound*

 

Read. . . the ****ing. . . eleven pages of this thread. . . to find out. . .

 

Waylander is unreasonable, simply by refusing to accept reason unless it's expressed purpose is to

benefit him.

 

And if you'll excuse Nalyd, he has to go get banned from the Runescape forums again for saying how bad they are.

[Marlenny]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
Those out their who think Drakons are superior? Why?

I'd think that after 11 pages the question would have been answered.

[Lord Safey]

I have heard why they think humans aren't superior but their vages on what qualties Drakons do have that make them supeior.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I've already milked these weaklings dry. They've got nothing.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
I've already milked these weaklings dry.

Another reason why Drakons are superior: they don't need to lactate.

[Lord Safey]

nor do other lizards but does that make them superior?

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
I have heard why they think humans aren't superior but their vages on what qualties Drakons do have that make them supeior.

Read Waylander/Suspicious Vlish's posts. He's the main proponent of that position. If by "they" you're including me and/or silver, we don't believe either race is presented as superior. It was only necessary to show that both races basically have the same "higher" qualities (deductive reasoning, empathy, morality, etc).

[Sir Spiff]

Drakon morality? I think not. Even their code of honor is a pragmatic foundation for mutually beneficial cooperation, designed with limited, but sufficient, allowance for petty bickering and treachery.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Sir Spiff:
Drakon morality? I think not. Even their code of honor is a pragmatic foundation for mutually beneficial cooperation, designed with limited, but sufficient, allowance for petty bickering and treachery.

The same could be said for human morality. Without checking a dictionary "a pragmatic foundation for mutually beneficial cooperation" sounds almost like the definition of morality. If you want to see petty bickering look over this thread. I don't think there are any drakons writing here. Besides, the majority of bickering and treachery among the drakons concerns how they will fight the battle for their very existence. It doesn't get more unpetty than that.

[Lord Safey]

I think that drakons have the potential to be humans equals, though they have not lived up to that potential.

[Dark Mage]

This thread is becoming boring after 11 pages maybe... let's just say that drakons are technically superior but their personality will lead them to doom.

[Enraged Slith]

Quote:

This thread is becoming boring after 11 pages maybe... let's just say that drakons are technically superior but their personality will lead them to doom.

Your ability to compromise astounds me. I must have skipped that canister.

[jared]

im new to the post bu im a player from 2000 i was 6 years old sorry for spam to make it count i like the rebelion but the only instinkt drakons have is"bite his head off and be done"

 

and then a guy is dead

 

i hope a shaper

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
I think that drakons have the potential to be humans equals, though they have not lived up to that potential.

I reckon they do fairly well for their age as a race. In fact they've bested humans in some ways. The one somewhat valid point that Emp made is that there is not a group of drakons that seeks to live peaceably by themselves. The flip side is that they are banned as a species by the dominant world empire. Serviles do sometimes try to live peaceably, but they are not banned from existing. If I have to be a slave, but you're kill-on-sight some of our responses might be similar, but we'd expect some differences as well. Any comparison is not apples-to-apples.

It's telling in my eyes that the drakon high council has not banned humankind in turn or even decided to seperate themselves from humanity. They start a rebellion and actually allow humans to join! What more can you expect? Come on, even humans have their pride.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by jared:
i was 6

as in years old?

[jared]

yea

[jared]

so your point is. yull have to say it in public

[Josdhhht]

six years old, realy?

[jared]

yea six i loved it but didnt understand i just killed everything i still felt sorrow for the selviles but i controled them

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by jared:
so your point is. yull have to say it in public

I didn't have a point. I was just asking. Don't be offended.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by jared:
i just killed everything

What was that you were saying about drakonian instict?

[jared]

my mood does change fast

[jared]

i was 6 and given the oportunity

[Sudanna]

Hmmm. Nalyd agreed to no mini-modding, but polite forum etiquette should be alright.

 

Please tone down the graemlins. They burn our eyes out of their sockets. Double posting is rather impolite, unless you have a legitimate reason for doing it. Just use the "edit" button in the top bar where your posts are. It's considered good manners to use proper grammar and spelling, too. Other than that, have fun, leave your sanity at the door, and welcome back!

[Suspicious Vlish]

The biggest mistake quite a few posters here are making is that they examine Drakon behaviour is isolation.

 

There also is clear evidence of double standards. They'll condemn the Drakon's for displaying rather extreme behaviour, but turn a blind eye to that of the Shapers.

 

It's obvious that the majority are biased against the Drakons, because they are not humans. It's far harder to sympathize with the plight of a 'cold blooded' reptile, and far easier to condemn their so-called 'animal' behaviour.

 

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The Shapers are, quite simply, Nazis. They engage in the routine and systematic genocide of sapient beings. It is not a huge shock that this has resulted in the Drakons being willing to resort to desperate measures in order to avoid complete obliteration.

 

I've noticed that several posters here have mentioned that the Unbound can't defend anything, they are just bred to attack and cause wholescale destruction. What these people fail to realize is that sometimes, the best defense is a good offense. The atomic bombs on Japan prove this point.

 

For those who condemn the Drakons releasing the Unbound, answer me these questions.

 

Do you condone America's firebombing and nuking of the Japanese mainland?

Would you have rathered to risk invasion by the Japanese Imperial Army?

Would you have rather that possibly hundreds of thousands of America troops die in a land assault?

Especially given that there is no way to know if a mainland assault would have resulted in more civilian casualties than the firebombing/nuking?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by jared:
i hope a shaper

I hope a shaper, too.

Stillness: Smart serviles are just as banned as drakons. Drakons allow humans to join the rebellion because humans are not single-minded. Humans are capable of seeing different sides of things, and comming to their own decisions. Hypothetically, if drakons were allowed to join the Shapers (in exchange for their loyalty they would be allowed to live out their life in peace), do you, in your opinion, think a single one would accept?

[Sudanna]

The Shapers commit genocide only when the creatures they are attacking are inherently dangerous, out of control, or horribly flawed. The point here is whether, in the Geneforge world, Drakons are superior or not. The point is not to justify or explain real-world events, no matter how morally corrupt they may be.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Smart serviles are just as banned as drakons.

The new breed designed to spy is very smart. They are not banned.

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Drakons allow humans to join the rebellion because humans are not single-minded. Humans are capable of seeing different sides of things, and comming to their own decisions.

I remember Litalia being the first to join, but I don't remember anything like what you're saying being given as the reason.

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Hypothetically, if drakons were allowed to join the Shapers (in exchange for their loyalty they would be allowed to live out their life in peace), do you, in your opinion, think a single one would accept?

What do you mean by loyalty? If you mean a truce then it doesn't even have to be hypothetical. They already live at peace with humans that don't have them marked for destruction. They even seem to respect Litalia and Jared.

[Sudanna]

Respect? They let the Geneforge sit stagnant, unused, and uncared for in a dusty back room of Northforge! They dismiss the human side of the Rebellion as ineffective and weak, and neglect the training of new lifecrafters even though it would mean little to no expense to them! Respect, Ha!

[-silver-]

This thread now falls under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin\'s_law . two or three times.

[Lord Safey]

I'm not disputing the drakons have been through a lot and that their actions towards shapers be justifiable. What I question is their effectiveness as a soceity. Intellegent rebel serviles have formed soceitys that rival that of humans even though they where orgnial created to be completly depednt. Drakons have a tendency to be hermits and when they do live together they have huge wasteful political debates. No doubt humans do this as well but the amount of complaining I get from talking to Greta, Litiala and the stray drayk or two is that it is a much bigger problem for Drakons then it is for Humans or serviles. Prehaps in time if they surive they can grow to rival Humans are serviles but until then they as a soceity are inferior to Humans or even serviles.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
The new breed designed to spy is very smart. They are not banned.

I meant independant. And I'm pretty sure you knew that.

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
They'll condemn the Drakon's for displaying rather extreme behaviour, but turn a blind eye to that of the Shapers.

Here's your problem, your comparing drakons with a specific sect of humanity. Your saying the drakons are superior to humans, and so you must look at all humans. Everything I've said has been true of all drakons, but nothing you've said has been true of all humans.

[Aeshi]

I prefer drakons but thats just me

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
The new breed designed to spy is very smart. They are not banned.

I meant independant. And I'm pretty sure you knew that.

I thought so, but I don't like to assume too much. My point was that serviles are not banned as a race as drakons are. They simply are not allowed to disobey. Some comparison is fine, but it won't be even comparison. Its moot anyway as we're comparing drakons with humans, not serviles.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by -silver-:
This thread now falls under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law . two or three times.

Yeah, we should probably stick a fork in it.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had never heard of this. I have to say that it makes a lot of sense.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Ahh yes, Godwin's Law.

 

Pop culture from Usenet doesn't change the fact that my comparison between the Nazis and the Shapers is quite apt.

[Sir Spiff]

Quote:

Originally written by -silver-:
This thread now falls under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin\'s_law. two or three times.

Quote:

Originally Wikipedia: Godwin's Law
Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda or other mainstays of the Nazi regime.

This thread deals fairly directly with genocide, so the article you present on Godwin's Law proves that Godwin's Law does not apply.

[Retlaw May]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
For those who condemn the Drakons releasing the Unbound, answer me these questions.

Do you condone America's firebombing and nuking of the Japanese mainland?

Would you have rathered to risk invasion by the Japanese Imperial Army?

Would you have rather that possibly hundreds of thousands of America troops die in a land assault?

Especially given that there is no way to know if a mainland assault would have resulted in more civilian casualties than the firebombing/nuking?

1. No I do not condone the firebombing and the nuking of the Japanese mainland.

2. America was never truly under real threat of a great invasion. The Japanese landed on American territory once (Alaska) in a very unsuccessful campaign (bottom line, every single Japanese soldier died). At worst USA would have lost some terretories in the Pacific in the very unlikely scenerio where the US lost .

3. It was not just a two option question of what to do. It wasn't just either we nuke them or invade them. There were other options such as a demonstration on an isolated area or low population density area. By killing so many civilians the US made itself into something that they had considered barbaric earlier. There is a certain point where it is to have some more honerable deaths than having a bloodsoaked path of unhonerable life. You didn't only hurt those in the area, you hurt their families and friends. There were Americans that had families completely wiped out in those atomic attacks. Hiroshima contained what remained of my family members in Japan, but now only ashes are rest there.

4. See the first part of 3.

I would appreciate it if someone would quote this for me so Waylander may see it since he is ignoring my posts. I really don't see the point of him staying in this discussion if he isn't even going to see any rebuttles. He only surrounds himself with yesmen so he can feel better about himself.

P.S. I think that the only historical events that have managed to lodge themeselves into Waylander's head are references to Nazis and Isreal. Polarization is his game since Waylander is his name.

[Lord Safey]

All creation where designed by humans the drakons merely improved upon them. The shapers found that existing creations weren't up to the challenge so they came up with newer more power creations. The drakons only answer is more power no creativity no adapting. Is this effect of infeior genetics or soceity forged by harsh conditions? I don't know but if they fail to change it they will fail. If they fail to change this regardless of the circumstances and I consider inferior.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
All creation where designed by humans the drakons merely improved upon them. The shapers found that existing creations weren't up to the challenge so they came up with newer more power creations. The drakons only answer is more power no creativity no adapting. Is this effect of infeior genetics or soceity forged by harsh conditions? I don't know but if they fail to change it they will fail. If they fail to change this regardless of the circumstances and I consider inferior.

Their answer was highly effective and demonstrated great skill. Whether it was creative or not is a matter of opinion. What is a fact is that the humans, rebel and shaper, couldn't come up with a better idea. I don't think it's because they're better. I think it's exactly what you said - "soceity forged by harsh conditions."

[jared]

retlaw may you are a hippe. i agre with waylander

[Sudanna]

Wow, jared, you sure do make a forceful argument.

 

The answer of the Drakons was the Unbound, which could have been done easier and better by the Shapers. The Shapers, on the other hand, didn't want to condemn innocent lives to death just because theirlives were threatened. When the innocents are all or at least mostly dead, then, and only then, do the Shapers resort to uncontrolled rogues.

 

The Shapers did come up with something better. They created new things instead of adding unpredictable and unreliable power to old ones. The creation of new things, not the altering of old ones, is, in and of itself, a sign of superiority.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Meta-Undead Spokesmage:
The Shapers did come up with something better. They created new things instead of adding unpredictable and unreliable power to old ones. The creation of new things, not the altering of old ones, is, in and of itself, a sign of superiority.

That's one view. Others might say that pursuing novelty for the sake of novelty is a sign of decadence.

[Sudanna]

Well, it is, but that's not what the Shapers did. They had a rational, practical need and filled it perfectly by creating something new, not solving it imperfectly by adding unpredictable, unreliable, uncontrollable, and simply dangerous power.

[Dikiyoba]

I think it's worth pointing out that:

 

1. The Shapers haven't invented much of anything truly new for a long time. Kyshakks are probably the most original, but they're still giant reptiles, of which there are already plenty in existence. War tralls are almost exactly like thahds and battle alphabets, just more powerful and the ability to throw rocks. Wingbolts are mainly artilas combined with bats. Barzahl modified vlish to make eyebeasts, drayks to make drakons, and battle alphabets to make the rots. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but the Shapers aren't exactly coming up with all-new, never-seen-anything-like-it-before creations anymore.

 

2. The drakons can't afford to mess up. They don't have the time or resources for that. Maybe they want to be more creative and maybe they don't, but they are practically forced to improve what they know already works since they can't afford the risk of the new creations failing them. Imagine what would have happened if the drakons had invented eyebeasts instead of the Unbound--the eyebeasts would have revolted or fled and the drakons would have been doomed. Or what if the drakons had invented the kyshakks instead? The Shapers have the numbers to make up for their lousy to-hit rate. The drakons don't.

 

So, given the situation and what little we know about the drakons, creativity isn't a valid comparison to determine superiority.

 

Dikiyoba.