Are Drakons superior beings?

[Aoslare]

Oh my god. I can't believe this topic is still going.

 

Is it possible that we have a new contender for the auspicious Nephils vs. Sliths role?

[Dikiyoba]

Nah, we still need at least six more pages of nonsense before we can begin to compare. On the other hand, the average post length here (minus quotes) might be longer, so perhaps it is.

 

Oh, and a link for anyone who cares. (Yes, Dikiyoba realizes it's partially broken. There's nothing that can be done about it.)

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
The issue is skill. You can't reason away the simple fact that the drakons have 'far more skill' than monarch. The game says it. Case closed.

It's worth keeping in mind that the game says this before the PC can have access to the Sealed Catacombs, so the PC doesn't yet know the full extent of Monarch's skill at that stage.

Very much worth mentioning - good point! I just looked over the scripts and the PC actually compares the feeling he has encountering the titan to that he felt when near the unbound. Now who's more skilled becomes debateable again. I would point out that the Titan is "completely beyond control" which is probably why Monarch had to lock it away. The Unbound are conrollable to an extent and created with purpose in mind that they fulfill wonderfully. If someone wanted to say that Monarch is equal to or even a little better, I wouldn't argue that at this point. Really it doesn't matter. What matters is that the drakons are highly skilled at shaping which involves innate ability, training, and scientific reasearch.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Morior:
And don't say that just because someone disagrees with you or you don't understand them, their logic is broken. Both sides of this argument are equally (il)logical.

I'd say someone's logic is broken if they are arguing a point in the game while disagreeing with what the game itself says. That person has sacrificed logic for the sake of being "right."

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Reguarding drakons evolving in record time: The first drakons were made from intelligent, very independant drayks. They were first given this intelligence by the humans that once inhabited Sucia. As for them stealing knowledge, I wouldn't even give them that much credit. They had it handed to them. The drakons had Zachary and Barzahl to spoonfeed them tons shaper knowledge after they were created in Drypeak. Anything that the drakons have accomplished they have done so because it is what they were designed (by humans) to do. This is the main reason why I personally have such a hard time seeing them as superior to humans, despite the fact that they are indeed stronger in many ways.

Quote:

Stillness:

Don't confuse more variety with more skill.

You don't think more variety is a sign of skill? I'd say it is. The fact that drakons make the all powerful unbound is not so much a sign of skill as a sign of power and strength. Monarch shows us that humans are equally capable of this power and strength. The two species may even be equal in this regard, but humans still have the drakons far outmatched as far as ingenuity goes.

Quote:

Morior:

I highly doubt it's true that all drakons are either fighters or hoarders.

This wasn't even an assumption, there simple aren't any drakons that don't fit those descriptions.

[Sudanna]

The Unbound are controllable only by the barest extent because they were still weak when they were first Shaped. Once they gained enough strength to lash out, even the Drakons took casualties trying to placate them. By the time they had reached Shaper lands, it was all the Drakons could do to run away with their paltry remaining forces.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Quote:

Stillness:
Don't confuse more variety with more skill.

You don't think more variety is a sign of skill? I'd say it is. The fact that drakons make the all powerful unbound is not so much a sign of skill as a sign of power and strength. Monarch shows us that humans are equally capable of this power and strength. The two species may even be equal in this regard, but humans still have the drakons far outmatched as far as ingenuity goes.

I think variety is variety and skill is skill. They are different. One is not necessarily indicitive of the other. You can continue to say the creation of the unbound is not a display of skill, but it's not me you're disagreeing with.

"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nalyd:

 

Quote:

The Unbound are controllable only by the barest extent because they were still weak when they were first Shaped. Once they gained enough strength to lash out, even the Drakons took casualties trying to placate them. By the time they had reached Shaper lands, it was all the Drakons could do to run away with their paltry remaining forces.

Where in the world are you getting that from? Here's a section of ending text that proves exactly the opposite:

 

Quote:

With the guidance of Akhari Blaze, the Unbound are able to cross rebel lands with minimal difficulties. The power and madness of the new creations are unable to compete with his total resolve.

 

At last, the day comes when the Unbound are brought to the Western Morass. The drakons prepare to turn loose their creations. Their final command: Go west. Destroy all you find. Show no mercy. And then the battle begins.

Dikiyoba.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.

It has already been stated (and you've already acknowledged) that this quote is meaningless. It is saying that the unbound took more skill to make than the crap creations that were running around in Monarch's marshes. I'm not wrong, you're quote simply doesn't hold the weight you thought it did. The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part. They make bigger drakons, crappy geneforges, and talk about quantity over quality, they're the ones leaving weak mindless rogue batches all over the place while Shapers concentrate on new, tactically superior creation armies.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Meta-Undead Spokesmage:
Once they gained enough strength to lash out, even the Drakons took casualties trying to placate them. By the time they had reached Shaper lands, it was all the Drakons could do to run away with their paltry remaining forces.

Nothing like that is in the rebel ending. I just went through it. Akari Blaze and his drakons bring them to the western morass without incident. They keep them under complete control and then send them off with the instructions to destroy. They do. The PC makes a couple of mentions of how the unbound are beautiful samples of the height of the shaping arts. They work as well as could have been hoped and bring the drakons to equality in power with the shapers. Where are you getting this from?

[vld]

Quote:

Resources do apply to superiority. I'd say that someone able to make a bomb from household items is superior at bomb-making to someone who has to have a full lab and all sorts of chemicals, even if the first bomb is slightly inferior.

But game says that Drakons put more resources and more skills. That shows clearly that at that moment Drakons are superior in skills so resources doesn`t matter.

Quote:

simply dumping more power into existing creations creates a quantity of force, not a quality. Quality force would be force appropriate to a situation, such as, say, wingbolts (flying artillery), or war tralls (brutes with range). A quantity of force would be relying on one uber-creation for all situations. (I'm sure this can be explained better, if someone could help me out.)

Shapers built variety of creations because they couldn`t match unbound. To take on one creation they had to create many, much weaker creations. Drakons built one creation which is superior to everything shapers had ever created. If it was that easy to create unbound then we would see something even stronger among the creations of Shapers. But we don`t, why? Drakons are better at that.

Quote:

For example:
Pro-drakon point: We built the gazers!
Anti-human rebuttal: The gazers are just improvements on the vlish, so they don't count.

Well? Which is it?

None.

Quote:

This wasn't even an assumption, there simple aren't any drakons that don't fit those descriptions.

You realize that Drakons are in risk of extinction? They have 2 options :
A) Die
Die while fighting for right to live and maybe they`ll survive as a race.

And please, don`t say that you would rather die while kneeling and begging for mercy than fighting for right to live.

Quote:

I'm not wrong, you're quote simply doesn't hold the weight you thought it did. The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part.

We already saw, you are just refusing to accept that.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.

It has already been stated (and you've already acknowledged) that this quote is meaningless. It is saying that the unbound took more skill to make than the crap creations that were running around in Monarch's marshes. I'm not wrong, you're quote simply doesn't hold the weight you thought it did. The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part. They make bigger drakons, crappy geneforges, and talk about quantity over quality, they're the ones leaving weak mindless rogue batches all over the place while Shapers concentrate on new, tactically superior creation armies.

So you're right and I'm wrong? Dang. Let's pack it up and give in fellas. The Emperor has spoken. He opinions are facts, the facts that dispute him don't exist, up is down, and good is bad. He can tell us what we said even if we didn't say it and still be right. Why even try?

[Dikiyoba]

I just checked. If you lose Akhari Blaze, then the Unbound become much harder control in the ending. Same two paragraphs as I quoted earlier:

 

Quote:

Without the guidance of Akhari Blaze, the Unbound crossing the rebel lands have their problems. Some of them go rogue, causing serious casualties and doing a lot of damage. Even Derenton Freehold is partially damaged by a rogue Unbound attack.

 

At last, the day comes when the Unbound are brought to the Western Morass. The drakons prepare to turn loose their creations. Their final command: Go west. Destroy all you find. Show no mercy. And then the battle begins.

So, yes, the drakons can have trouble controlling the Unbound. But the given text is a far cry from "it was all the Drakons could do to run away with their paltry remaining forces."

 

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part.

The game says that the Unbound are better than the creations of Shaper Monarch that we've seen so far. Shaper Monarch was able to hold off both the Shapers and the rebels for a long time with those same "crap creations". Therefore, the Unbound show that the drakons are skilled.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

vld:
That shows clearly that at that moment Drakons are superior in skills so resources doesn`t matter.

It says they had more resources and skill than Monarch. And it was not even taking into account Monarch's more powerful creations, just the crappy ones you see in the swamp and city. That quote is worthless, do better.

Quote:

Drakons built one creation which is superior to everything shapers had ever created. If it was that easy to create unbound then we would see something even stronger among the creations of Shapers. But we don`t, why? Drakons are better at that.

That's not why. The reason why is because Shapers value control over raw strength. When they abandon this need for control, they make even more powerful creations, like the Titan. This is like the tenth time I've pointed this out.

Quote:

You realize that Drakons are in risk of extinction? They have 2 options :
A) Die
Die while fighting for right to live and maybe they`ll survive as a race.

I thought you said you read the thread? Did you miss the part about the serviles (who are in just as much danger as the drakons) and yet they try to form a peaceful community hidden in the mountains? Forget them? The options you mentioned are not the only options, but they are the only ones the drakons understand. This makes sense though, considering that this is exactly what they were programmed to understand.

Quote:

Stillness:
The Emperor has spoken. He opinions are facts, the facts that dispute him don't exist, up is down, and good is bad.

Not a single thing I said in the section you quoted was an opinion. Do you have anything meaningful to contribute or have you given up like Waylander?

[Morior]

Quote:

So you're right and I'm wrong? Dang. Let's pack it up and give in fellas. The Emperor has spoken. He opinions are facts, the facts that dispute him don't exist, up is down, and good is bad. He can tell us what we said even if we didn't say it and still be right. Why even try?

Yes, let's all ignore the good points someone makes just because they also make bad ones. Let's just bring out the big ol' illogical label and slap ET with it. Who cares if he's right on some points? He's wrong on others and he doesn't counter everything you say, so let's just ignore him.

The Unbound do not prove Drakon superiority. They are stronger than anything the shapers have created so far, but that only proves that the drakons worry less about control than the Shapers do. Whether or not the Shapers could create something as powerful if they gave up control is pure guesswork.

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For example:
Pro-drakon point: We built the gazers!
Anti-human rebuttal: The gazers are just improvements on the vlish, so they don't count.

Well? Which is it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

None.

I agree. The point was to point out how the pro-drakon side is arguing two contradictory positions at once. Not saying that we haven't done that, but you guys can't claim the logical high ground. And before you say "Well, you guys just ignore the facts," at least try to rebutt the argument that your new favorite quote only proves that the Unbound were made with more skill than Monarch's junk creations.

[Stillness]

2 things:

 

1) There are some of us here that are trying to show that the game presents neither side as superior. Anyone that doesn't see that there are three sides is going to miss a lot.

 

2) (this is going to sound malicious, but it's not) Emp is a liar. Emp can you tell us what your lie is this time or will you play dumb? Hint: it involves something you claim I said which I did not...

[Morior]

1. True, and this is probably the most reasonable side. It still doesn't change most of my arguments (although it may invalidate the example I used to demonstrate illogicalness, I don't know)

 

2. Are you talking about his claim that you acknowledged his rebuttal of a quote as true? I wondered about that. Still, that's a very petty thing to fix on and is in no way worth ignoring the rest of his arguments.

[Stillness]

The only valid argument of Emp's that I've ignored is his point about control. Humans control drakons, but not the other way around. That's a good argument. It should be noted that the very reason drakons are banned though is that they are extremely difficult to control. The only other person besides the PC that I can remember controlling one is Matala. Correct me if i'm wrong. Matala is extremely powerful and is not a human. The fact that your PC controls drayks, drakons, and eyebeasts seems to be more of a gameplay issue that a storyline one. He can bend the will of humans and creations. No one else is ever as powerful as he is by endgame. He can destroy townsful of shapers, rebels, and drakons.

[vld]

Quote:

It says they had more resources and skill than Monarch

And monarch isn`t one of the best shapers?

Quote:

When they abandon this need for control, they make even more powerful creations, like the Titan. This is like the tenth time I've pointed this out.

Titan is stronger? No? Titan can be controled? No?

Quote:

Did you miss the part about the serviles (who are in just as much danger as the drakons) and yet they try to form a peaceful community hidden in the mountains?

Serviles situation is better than Drakons. Serviles are in danger as a sect while Drakons as a race. Big difference.

Quote:

The options you mentioned are not the only options, but they are the only ones the drakons understand.

What other options? Hide until they are found and killed?

Quote:

This makes sense though, considering that this is exactly what they were programmed to understand.

And serviles were programmed to obey, unfortunately shapers failed at programming.

Quote:

The fact that your PC controls drayks, drakons, and eyebeasts seems to be more of a gameplay issue that a storyline one.

It`s gameplay. I mean Drakons would kill you if they saw that your are creating new Drakons and enslaving them.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Morior:
2. Are you talking about his claim that you acknowledged his rebuttal of a quote as true?

It wasn't my rebuttal, it was Thuryl's, and Stillness did acknowledge it.

Quote:

vld:
And monarch isn`t one of the best shapers?

I sure hope not, he's a crazy guy living in a basement. Seriously though, we have yet to meet the best the Shapers have to offer (the Council), but doesn't it say something about the strength of humans that one crazy man in a basement could even be compared to the best the drakons have to offer?

Quote:

Titan is stronger? No? Titan can be controled? No?

What's the matter with you? I said "when they abandon this need for control." And yes, the Titan is tougher than the unbound you fight at Quessa-Uss.

Quote:

Serviles situation is better than Drakons. Serviles are in danger as a sect while Drakons as a race. Big difference.

Could you explain this difference? They are both marked for death, that seems like the same situation to me.

Quote:

What other options? Hide until they are found and killed?

They could build up their defenses in the meantime, biding their time. It could only have improved their chances of winning an inevitable war, right?

Quote:

And serviles were programmed to obey, unfortunately shapers failed at programming.

Really? Then please point out the drakon that does not fit the description I presented.

[rantalot]

If we are going to talk about evolution then I want to make a statement that drakons did not evolve over 20 years. They started out with the first shaped creation and as the skill of the shapers increased they were created. I phrased this very poorly but I hope I made my point.

 

Both sides need to learn how to concede otherwise this will never end.

 

Unbound vs variety: its all about the tactics you are using I think this is a perfect tie. There is no point for drakons to invest in precession strikes their targets are HUGE.

 

From what I saw in the game shapers and drakons have virtually identical shaping abilities, but shapers might be slightly winning because they are producing the same results with restrictions.

 

I think the argument that Drakons are superior fighters is not valid….hear me out. Drakons are all reshaped so we must compare their physical and magical properties to fully reshaped shapers and it seems that it’s about even. If u strip a drakon of all the reshaping what would it be?

 

One argument to make the drakons look inferior is also not valid. The argument was that drakons don’t work or at least don’t work as much as the other creations. It is a war! You will make the best fighters warriors and the worst ones farmers and workers.

 

We keep using unbound as an ultimate achievement of the drakons so I want every one arguing to answer this question If the shapers wanted to, could they have made the unbound? Please answer this question so that we can stop using them as some sort of an achievement for the drakons. If you think the shapers couldn’t I would like to hear the argument. Otherwise lets please stop using them as some sort of an accomplishment that was beyond the shapers. We can argue that it was a brilliant tactical move by the drakons but that’s another argument.

 

From all the arguments that I’ve read most end up being perfect ties. There are a few very minor victories and in my eyes shapers are winning but not by much. Hopefully geneforge 5 will shed more light on this question my money is still on the fact that it’s a tie and that Jeff wanted it that way.

[Suspicious Vlish]

vld:

Quote:

What other options? Hide until they are found and killed?

Perhaps they should hide in the attic, much like Anne Frank...

 

As to the continuous mentioning of the Titan, may I point out that:

 

1. Monarch did not demonstrate himself capable of mass-producing the Titan. The Drakons are capable of mass-producing the Unbound.

 

2. I'd argue that the Unbound are indeed stronger. The prototypes you are forced to fight are slightly less difficult than the Titan, and the unfinished Unbound that Blaze uses to attack you if you side with the Shapers is roughly equal in strength.

 

3. Monarch was not capable of controlling the Titan, whereas the Drakons were capable of controlling the Unbound.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
Monarch did not demonstrate himself capable of mass-producing the Titan. The Drakons are capable of mass-producing the Unbound.

There's also a lot more drakons than there are Shaper Monarchs, genius.

Quote:

I'd argue that the Unbound are indeed stronger. The prototypes you are forced to fight are slightly less difficult than the Titan, and the unfinished Unbound that Blaze uses to attack you if you side with the Shapers is roughly equal in strength.

I'll give you that. But again, Monarch was one man in a basement and he managed to create something that rivals the best the drakons can offer. Imagine what a whole group of humans with vast resources at their fingertips could do.

[Morior]

Quote:

3. Monarch was not capable of controlling the Titan, whereas the Drakons were capable of controlling the Unbound.

Debatable. One drakon (Blaze) is able to control them. The rest are only able to point them in the right direction (And that takes many casualties)

Quote:

It wasn't my rebuttal, it was Thuryl's, and Stillness did acknowledge it.

Could you provide a quote?

Quote:

There's also a lot more drakons than there are Shaper Monarchs, genius.

Hey! No need to get mean.

Quote:

Both sides need to learn how to concede otherwise this will never end.

Seconded.

[Lord Safey]

As far as I am concern Drakons have proven they are equal to humans in almost aspects but one. There extrem arrogance. The Shapers intially had this arrogance but when they saw themselfs loseing the war at the begining they learned not to be so arrogant. Drakons are still arroganet despite their massive losses. You don't see this arrogance in most rebel humans, serviles, or dryaks. As far as I'm concered arrogance is the most crippling behavior qualtiy they have. From what I observed in game humans learn easier from arrogance then drakons. If they over came that flaw as a race I be willing to consider them equal to humans.

 

About the unbound the reason I think the shapers don't have their own version is they don't want too. You always come accross the occasinal shaper lab that has some superpowered mad creation sealed in it. The fact that rebellion exist is because they made creations they couldn't control why would they create something superpowerful that they couldn't control?

[Suspicious Vlish]

M:

Quote:

Debatable. One drakon (Blaze) is able to control them. The rest are only able to point them in the right direction (And that takes many casualties)

Well, no, it's not debatable as to whether Drakons can control the Unbound. It's revealed consistently that they indeed can exert a significant measure of control over the Unbound. Their control is not absolute, but neither is a parent's control over their child.

 

Whether the Drakons can control the Unbound is not in question. How much control they can exert apparently depends on the individual Drakon, with A. Blaze being the most skilled.

[Morior]

Okay. Apparently, I got the wrong impression from what I've read on this thread (assuming you're correct, of course). While it is always worth mentioning that Monarch was one man in a basement and thus not the best that the Shapers could pull out, I will concede that the drakons as a whole are somewhat better at shaping than Monarch. (Although whether a lone drakon could make the Unbound from a basement is still in question.)

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Morior:
Could you provide a quote?

Quote:

Stillness:

Quote:

Thuryl:
It's worth keeping in mind that the game says this before the PC can have access to the Sealed Catacombs, so the PC doesn't yet know the full extent of Monarch's skill at that stage.

Very much worth mentioning - good point!

That's the second time someone has called me a liar and been totally wrong.

Quote:

Waylander:
It's revealed consistently that they indeed can exert a significant measure of control over the Unbound.

No. You're making stuff up again. They have great difficulty controlling them even with Akhari Blaze, and even then, they are only able to lead them in the right direction before they totally run amok. Is this the "significant measure of control" you speak of?

[Suspicious Vlish]

Mor:

Quote:

Okay. Apparently, I got the wrong impression from what I've read on this thread (assuming you're correct, of course). While it is always worth mentioning that Monarch was one man in a basement and thus not the best that the Shapers could pull out,

Quite the contrary! Due to his excessive canister usage, and obvious experience, Monarch was perhaps the best that humanity as a whole had to offer.

 

Answer this simple question. Have you seen any humans, apart from Barzhal and Trajkov, demonstrate the same level of power observed in Monarch? Does the average Shaper possess the ability to make creations such as the Titan, or the Unbound?

 

Due to their canister induced genetic superiority (and to a lesser extent, their innate resourcefulness), Monarch, Barzhal and Trajkov are exceptional examples of an inferior species.

[vld]

Quote:

The fact that rebellion exist is because they made creations they couldn't control why would they create something superpowerful that they couldn't control?

That proves that Drakons are as skilled as Shapers. If Shapers were superior in skill(and they have more resources) they could create something stronger and controlable.

[Stillness]

PC: "There are three sorts of Unbound?"

Warmaster Karikiss: "Yesss. One for focused fire. One to spread damage over an area. And one for pacification, to interfere with foesss. All three will be present."

 

I know some of us like variety. Just a reminder that it was three creations used to save the rebellion and finally start pushing the shapers back. I think we've all ignored this important detail. The shapers have three new creations and the drakons answer with three and come out on top. In the rebel ending the drakons are said to be now "equal in power" to their former masters and oppressors. Whether you love or hate the shapers, you have to admit that there's a certain poetic justice to the fact that creations that they tried to wipe out make them turn tail and drop their shaping restrictions.

 

I still find the drakons arrogance and cold-heartedness repulsive. They only get worse once they start winning. It actually makes me start to lean towards them being inferior. At the same time they have matched the shapers through determination and tactical and scientific brilliance - that can't be taken from them. The PC marvels at the beauty, power, and efficiency of the unbound, calling them "very well designed" and "fantastic products of the shaping art." I don't see how anyone can realistically call the drakons programmed machines or animals at this point. I do hope the fifth game will see some of them start to question their morality.

 

Emp please minimize the facts now. Maybe you could point out for us how the drakons lack creativity or something.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Stillness, that was a fantastic point about the three types of Unbound.

 

I agree that the Drakons tend to be cold-hearted, but only because the situation forces them to be so. Leadership is a heavy burden, and sometimes you have sacrifice your own soundness of mind for the greater good. All generals in any war are sometimes forced to regard their soldiers as 'chess pieces', and consider committing ethically questionable actions in order to obtain victory (ie. The firebombing/nuking of Japan).

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
I agree that the Drakons tend to be cold-hearted, but only because the situation forces them to be so.

You never have to be cold-hearted or arrogant. I recognize the situation they're in and the abuse they've suffered, but that's not enough reason to behave as they do. Shapers are just as bad, but not all humans. We need to see a softer side from them like we do from humans, serviles, and even drayks. They need a Khyryk or a Shorass. But, I guess if they were able to defeat the shapers without being as self-centered one might be forced to conclude they were superior, then the game wouldn't be as much fun. There would be no moral dilemma. As it stands, you have to choose between evils.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

No. You're making stuff up again. They have great difficulty controlling them even with Akhari Blaze, and even then, they are only able to lead them in the right direction before they totally run amok. Is this the "significant measure of control" you speak of?

No, it's clear that Akhari Blaze has them under tight control:

 

Quote:

With the guidance of Akhari Blaze, the Unbound are able to cross rebel lands with minimal difficulties. The power and madness of the new creations are unable to compete with his total resolve.

Dikiyoba.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Quote:

Morior:
Could you provide a quote?

Quote:

Stillness:

Quote:

Thuryl:
It's worth keeping in mind that the game says this before the PC can have access to the Sealed Catacombs, so the PC doesn't yet know the full extent of Monarch's skill at that stage.

Very much worth mentioning - good point!

That's the second time someone has called me a liar and been totally wrong.

Somehow I missed this. Just in case anyone is fooled here this is what he said happened:

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.

It has already been stated (and you've already acknowledged) that this quote is meaningless.

I don't recall anyone saying this quote was meaningless and I certainly never acknowledged any such thing. It has great meaning! It shows that much skill went into making the unbound and that the drakons are highly skilled at shaping. I say that a few sentences down in the same post he pulled my quote from. It doesn't even make sense that i would reuse the quote if I thought it was meaningless.

[Morior]

There are three types of Unbound? This I did not know. Answer this question, though. How much difference is there between the three types? Or are they the same thing, just with different attack forms? (Now watch me be completely wrong and they be completely different.)

 

Also, to answer your question, no, you have not met anyone superior to Monarch, Barzahl, or Trajkov. You also have not met the shaper council. I realize that this is pure conjecture, but it's also only guesswork whether Monarch is stronger than the council.

 

And lastly, could you provide a quote showing that the drakons can control the Unbound without Blaze?

[Retlaw May]

Stillness, while the quote is still not meaningless that your character has still not seen the Titan or Monarch's upper level creations severely weakens the impact and degree of meaning .

[Synergy]

Quote:

Originally written by Morior:
There are three types of Unbound?

Why, yesssssss, warm-blooded fleshy one.



-S-

[Lord Safey]

2 things

First the creation of the unbound do not make the Drakon society supieor. Thats like saying the fact the USA created more an better nukes makes us supeior to everone else.

 

Second the unbound is a product of the Rebellion not the Drakons alone. If you read the trakovite ending where you destroy their equipment but still make one generation of Unbound you find out that the drakons can't make another generation because the rest of the rebillion refuses to help them. The reason you see mostly drakons and and few serviles is because the drakons kicked everyone else out when it came close to completion (rember Greta telling me that somewhere). So to be more accruate the unbound is the creation of the serviles, drayks, and possibly a few rebel humans.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
Second the unbound is a product of the Rebellion not the Drakons alone. If you read the trakovite ending where you destroy their equipment but still make one generation of Unbound you find out that the drakons can't make another generation because the rest of the rebillion refuses to help them.

No they didn't; they refused to let them. There's an important difference. The human rebellion didn't even know of the Unbound's existence until they were almost complete.

[Morior]

Ooh, pretty picture. (No sarcasm intended).

 

And just so there are no misunderstandings, I wasn't questioning the existence of three types of Unbound. That was simply a new fact to me.

 

And from the picture, they look very similar (apart from attack styles). I still say that three completely different creations show more variety than three creations that are basically the same thing wih different attacks. But at least the drakons have some variety.

[Lord Safey]

prehaps someone could provide a qoute I read it as the Drakons want to remake but couldn't because they need the rest of the rebellion. I never said that h umans where involved I said it might be a possibilty. I'm pretty sure dryaks and serviles where involved.

[Dikiyoba]

The quote you are thinking of (something along the lines of "and the drakons discovered that they still needed the rest of the rebellion") is in there, but it's not directly attached to the Unbound. They needed the humans and serviles for other, unstated reasons (probably to guard and run all the lands the rebels controlled) but not for the Unbound.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lord Safey]

considering that their is a picture of a serivle mechanic (has some type of tool in his hand) and an angry looking drakon glowering over a ruined creatiion vat to me at least it imples that they need the rest of the rebellion for their skill (directly in junction with the unbound). But lets for the sake of argument say they are not directly related the unbound would not exist with out the rest of the rebellion. Plus you underestimate the rest of the rebellion. Also noone has confronted my other point how is claim the drakons creation of the unbound make them superior different then if the USA claimed they where superior just because they had more nukes. If I made such a claim about the US ya'll flame me off the forums.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
Stillness, while the quote is still not meaningless that your character has still not seen the Titan or Monarch's upper level creations severely weakens the impact and degree of meaning .

I think "severely" is too strong, but I agree.

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
the creation of the unbound do not make the Drakon society supieor.

Agreed. The point (at least mine) is to show their great skill to anyone thinking they're inferior.

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
Emp please minimize the facts now. Maybe you could point out for us how the drakons lack creativity or something.

Quote:

Originally written by Morior:
I still say that three completely different creations show more variety than three creations that are basically the same thing wih different attacks.

Hey, this is not your job! Seriously though, what's your point? They are not basically the same. They do three different things to overwhelm the enemy. I guess you're saying they're the same because of their form, yes? What does variety have to do with war anyway? The idea is efficiency. Any engineer will tell you that they want to use the same materials and resources for as many different jobs as possible. Making something completely new uses energy and is to be avoided. The results speak for themselves. The three drakon creations cause the shapers to lose ground that they don't regain even when they drop restrictions.

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
considering that their is a picture of a serivle mechanic (has some type of tool in his hand) and an angry looking drakon glowering over a ruined creatiion vat to me at least it imples that they need the rest of the rebellion for their skill (directly in junction with the unbound).

The drakons are the brains of the operation. I can't see how the guy tightening bolts on the incubation vats matters in this discussion.

[Lord Safey]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
considering that their is a picture of a serivle mechanic (has some type of tool in his hand) and an angry looking drakon glowering over a ruined creatiion vat to me at least it imples that they need the rest of the rebellion for their skill (directly in junction with the unbound).

Quote:

Orignally written by Stillness The drakons are the brains of the operation. I can't see how the guy tightening bolts on the incubation vats matters in this discussion.

Well apparntly the drakons can't tighten their own bolts and they desperatly need them tighten. Since what they want(creating a second generation of Unbound) to get done is of extreme importance to them and they might be willing to do a mundane task that is normally beneath them. What ever that drakon wants that servile to do,he wants it done desperatly, the servile refuses to do it, and the drakon is incabale of doing it. Do not underestimate techincal support (I've noticed in the game npc serviles normally are the best mechanics)

[Sir Spiff]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
If I made such a claim about the US ya'll flame me off the forums.

"Ya'll" is incorrect. The word means "you all," which means the "ou" is being dropped. The correct spelling is "Y'all."

Apparently, Drakons' claws won't allow them to hold a wrench. Tool use is one of the primary abilities which define higher life, and for Drakons, this ability is seriously curbed. Drakons are dramatically inferior because they can't use a hammer.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Interesting. So a human with Parkinson's disease is inferior to a healthy human being? A left hander in the early 1900's would have been inferior to a right hander, because all of the utilities were crafted with right handers in mind?

 

Drakons have been observed to have some ability to use their claws. They can write (clumsily), and they can make canisters.

 

Perhaps the problem here is that there aren't any Drakon sized tools.

[Sir Spiff]

Quote:

Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
A left hander in the early 1900's would have been inferior to a right hander, because all of the utilities were crafted with right handers in mind?

Righty propaganda, oppressor.

[Suspicious Vlish]

I'm a lefty