Personally, I cheat. (long post)

[madrigan]

Not sure if this is an argument starter or totally not interesting, but anyway, there's a lot of discussion here on how to play a single character on Torment. I like to play with four edited characters on Easy. I find that I enjoy RPGs more this way.

 

I played through once on Easy without cheating, then twice on Easy with all four characters totally jacked up and some fairly liberal use of iampoor and iwanttobestronger. Reasons why I do this:

 

1) It's a game, which I play to reduce stress and aggravation, not increase it. I admire the depth of calculation and tactical thinking that some people on this board put into the game, but to me that's too much like work.

 

2) I want to see the entire game. I don't strive to be the greatest RPG player in the world, but I do want to see all the areas and events and the whole story. Sometimes I can't do this with my normal, uncheated party.

 

3) Most importantly, cheating enhances the Fantasy Role Playing aspect of the game for me. In fantasy, I don't try to imagine what it would be like to be a scrub starting out and getting beat up. I think about what it would be like to be the legendary, unstoppable hero. This is also why I play on Easy. I think of concepts for each character and then cheat the character into the ideal. I get them all the best gear and send them against Dorikas.

 

I also mentally retcon the story so that it makes sense that the four great heroes are seen by everyone as nobodies. The retcon is that the four characters are actually the members of an elite unit in the Imperial military, but only a few very high-ranking people know who they really are. They are posing as nobodies so the the Avernites will allow them to travel freely.

 

I did the same thing with the original Neverwinter Nights. It didn't make sense to me that they would send a beginner to solve a civilization-threatening problem. Obviously, the greatest hero in the land would take it on. So after I played through most of the story the "normal" way, I made up a cheat guy, gave him custom equipment, and played through. It was great.

 

Does anyone else cheat big and/or retcon? I should add that I don't use the codes that remove consequences or set quests as completed. My heroes actually perform all the tasks. Anyway, I thought I would put this out for discussion.

 

[edited for spelling]

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I'm with you, my friend. I agree with your first and second points. On the third I differ a bit. I don't want to be an unstoppable hero right off the bat. Sure, I give myself enough of the base skills so that I couldn't possibly be killed, but I don't give myself spells or creations. That way, I'm sort of playing the game the way it was intended to be played, only without ever having to worry about that pesky death thing.

 

I have a decent enough imagination that even if I wipe everything out in one or two blows, I can imagine how that battle would have unfolded, and I can imagine my character being beat up and tired when it's all over. I don't play the game to crunch numbers. I wear items that look cool, or that I had to quest particularly hard to get, I don't worry about their stats too much. Anything I miss out on in the leveling process is made up for by the fact that I still discover spells and such as normal players would.

 

In conclusion, Jeff's stories make it so that strategy just doesn't have to be that big a part of the game unless you want it to be. He gives such great descriptions, often tells how your characters feel about certain enemies, and even sometimes describes how a battle progresses, that I feel I can just enjoy watching these games unfold rather than have to work for it. And there are still so many non-combat decision in the Geneforge games that I still feel like I'm a big part of how the game progresses, regardless of how little I get into the battles.

[Sudanna]

Nalyd always plays through the first time with an uncheated character, the second as a completely edited god. After that, he has several games going at the same time, most only moderately cheated on.

[Sudanna]

Edit to remove inappropriate language that appears to be from someone else using this account.

[Locmaar]

I think it's all fair and square to use the editor to get your most fun out of the game. On the same note, while I truly enjoy solving riddles and such, I don't like being frustrated by a puzzle I can't get my head around, which is why I really like browsing through ye olde Book of Answers. It's also very helpful for completing the game without missing out on something.

 

I also sympathize with and understand the challenge approach of a game, even though that's not my cup of tea.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes:

See above edit

Could you elaborate on this, please, little pipe-man?

[Locmaar]

edit: UBB thought my post so well conceived that it created a duplicate. I feel flattered.

[Student of Trinity]

I understand the idea, but somehow cheating at a CRPG just to be godlike feels too much like cheating at solitaire, to me. I'd feel silly, despite the reasonable rationalizations. But I also started beta testing just to see the games before they came out, and this gives you enough detailed experience of how the games work that they really aren't hard after a while. It's mostly in knowing how to build your character(s), and it's not all that complicated. Somehow I'm not so expert in the Avernum games yet, but Torment on the Geneforge games is generally straightforward enough that I find myself checking whether the difficulty hasn't somehow slipped down to Normal.

 

What I can see myself doing is editing my character to compensate for some other limitation that makes the game significantly different in an interesting way. Like my singleton A5 game, where I pumped my Lores sky-high with the editor so I could grab all the good stuff. I also decided that my character was really some kind of Empire elite ranger, who had been thoroughly trained in all the Empire knew about the underworld and its magic. So I could see playing a game as a Monk, equipping nothing and fighting only with bare hands, but with artificially raised stats. Something like that.

 

I generally play singleton characters (Agents or Infiltrators) the first time through a Geneforge game, so as not to have the hassle of managing many units while I'm still figuring out where everything is. Before G4 Agents were actually the easiest to play, and now this is just my tradition.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:

So I could see playing a game as a Monk, equipping nothing and fighting only with bare hands, but with artificially raised stats. Something like that.

That is a really good idea. A Shaolin Nephil would be just a goldmine of cross-geekery.

[Drayk Armitage]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Before G4 Agents were actually the easiest to play, and now this is just my tradition.

This isn't really true, though. In G1, it was easy to get overpowered creations as a Shaper by pumping shaping skill. In G2, Parry was broken, making Guardians the easiest. And in G3, although Agents were very good, they weren't quite as good (nor as easy to play) as a team of Vlish.

In G4 on the other hand, Agents (Infiltrators) are one of several outstanding classes, but there is no class that categorically outdoes them as in G1-3.

[Student of Trinity]

I dunno — Parry in G2 was silly enough that you could just about stroll through Gazak-Uss letting packs of Rotghroths smack themselves to death on your ripostes. And terror vlish were the blue meanies of G1, all right. But in the days when you could still move after attacking, monsters needed 5AP left to hit you, and Emerald Chestguards were still in production, hitting and running around corners with a hasted Agent really gave the rogues no chance at all. It took a lot more dashing around than the other classes, but it was pretty easy.

[Randomizer]

Agents/infiltrators tend to be the glass cannons of Geneforge in that overwhelming fire power destroys opponents that can't get a chance to hit that frail agent. As long as your opponent never gets close to hitting you can crush almost anything. Shaper/lifecrafter is too dependent on making the right choice for creations to get through the game. GF4 weaken vlish so much that you needed to upgrade to the next tier creations.

 

Avernum is similar, but Jeff has done a lot to get rid of glass cannon characters. It makes planning out a singleton more work since you need to think out when and what to upgrade to stay effective.

 

I tend to play torment so much that going to normal makes me sloppy. Why buff a party when the monsters will all be dead in two rounds. Beta testing adds to the challenge because you are seeing the game for the first time with no spoilers on when a trainer will appear so you can't plan ahead too much. You never know how your decisions will affect the later game so it's alway new until the end.

 

I don't want a god-like character since it takes away trying to find new ways to solve fight problems. I just did the Lake of Trials slime pit test as a tormented singleton and found a more effective way to do it using daze to avoid the slimes until I reached the end.

[Evnissyen]

I agree with Student of Trinity about preferring singletons, at least in Geneforge. I like the idea of being the lone Hero out to save whatever needs to be saved in the particular story I'm given. Also, managing creations is just too much of a hassle, especially since it's such a drain on valuable essence. Also, creations tend to become obsolete over time, especially when they max out their stats, and then you have to start over with a new one in whom, if you want it to survive, you must invest a ridiculous amount of essence.

 

But Geneforge has always been my favorite series. Besides the superior graphics and animation and sound (especially G4), the story is just more interesting. One of my favorite moments in G3 was when I walked into one of the Shaper labs (as a shaper, remember), and my fellow Agent looked at my glowing skin and screamed: My god, what've you done to yourself? YOU'RE A FREAK!

 

I mean, I just love that idea where, in Geneforge, you can totally mess yourself up with addictive substances in order to make yourself extraordinarily powerful . . . at the expense of a number of things, such as self-control and the ability to negotiate.

 

As for godlike characters: I agree and disagree. I've always had problems with the Spiderweb games where they tell you you're a promising young nobody but then give you the ability to kill extremely powerful characters whom even whole armies of very well-trained heroes have been unable to defeat . . . or get at. I mean, there's just a limit to my ability to suspend disbelief. So Madrigan's desire for a semi-divine hero is well-taken, with me.

 

However... I like Stories, and I like the struggle, and I like the idea of building myself up for the challenges ahead until eventually I'm ready. Still... I have used the editor -- once so far, to edit my pole skill (before I found the trainers . . . next time I'll go through them) so I could get access to Blademaster . . . now I'm strongly considering using it again to get access to Anatomy and also Riposte.

 

My problem/reasoning is this: I don't want to waste a lot of levels spending my training on stuff I don't really want to spend it on just so I can get access to something I want. In the case of poles it was because the pole skill was useless to me and I didn't want to waste 6 or 7 or 8 levels on a skill I didn't need, just to get Blademaster which I DID need.

 

For Anatomy, my fighter needs to waste two levels on Intelligence, which he doesn't need since he doesn't cast spells (and the mental resist bonus isn't enough)... so although I've forgone Anatomy for a long time, I'm strongly considering using the editor for that.

 

The other is Riposte. I really want Riposte, but I can't get it. If I wanted to get it the honest way then I'd have to waste literally the next 11 levels, assuming there're enough knowledge crystals/brews to help me, on Parry and Blademaster alone until I gained access to it. Only then, at level 40 (if I get there; I assume I will), would I be able to add onto my Riposte stats, and by then I'm guessing it'll be too late.

[Harpster]

Quote:

Originally written by madrigan:
Not sure if this is an argument starter or totally not interesting, but anyway, there's a lot of discussion here on how to play a single character on Torment. I like to play with four edited characters on Easy. I find that I enjoy RPGs more this way. Does anyone else cheat big and/or retcon? I should add that I don't use the codes that remove consequences or set quests as completed. My heroes actually perform all the tasks. Anyway, I thought I would put this out for discussion.

Hear hear!

"I don't use the codes that remove consequences"

Why not? Maybe we are thinking of 2 different things.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Harpster:

"I don't use the codes that remove consequences"

Why not? Maybe we are thinking of 2 different things.

For example, if I free the drake in Harkin's Landing, I don't then use the cheat code to make the town friendly again. I have my superheroes move through the actual plot.

[Student of Trinity]

I've been complaining for ages about the 'zero to hero' arc not getting acknowledged enough in CRPGs in general. There should be a whole lot more scenes where your boss notices that in a few short weeks his lowliest scout has done what his entire organization couldn't handle before, and totally freaks out. The idea that you were somehow already super, before that last bunch of orcs put you over a million XP, at least removes the weirdness of how you got so good so fast.

[Igor]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
I dunno — Parry in G2 was silly enough that you could just about stroll through Gazak-Uss letting packs of Rotghroths smack themselves to death on your ripostes. And terror vlish were the blue meanies of G1, all right. But in the days when you could still move after attacking, monsters needed 5AP left to hit you, and Emerald Chestguards were still in production, hitting and running around corners with a hasted Agent really gave the rogues no chance at all. It took a lot more dashing around than the other classes, but it was pretty easy.

Not only that, but mental magic was absurdly good in G2. I never encountered a monster that I couldn't Strong Daze, and Terror meant that they just stood in a corner while you firebolted them to death.

[Student of Trinity]

Heh. I forgot that. I once wrote here that 'a baby could clear Inner Gazak-Uss with Strong Daze and a sharp rattle'. So I never used the Dazes: they felt too much like cheating ...

[Tyranicus]

Personally, I am a huge cheater. I start off the game with way overpowered characters, and continue through that way. I get plenty of enjoyment from the story and the puzzles. I don't find having to worry about dying that enjoyable. That said, I have played through all of the Spiderweb games I own without cheating. (Except A4, but I never finished that one while cheating ) I find it much more fun to cheat though.

[Drayk Armitage]

The dazes are level-dependent (enemy level that is), and enemy level is different on different difficulty settings. On Torment, you have to work a lot harder to daze everything.

[Evnissyen]

Student of Trinity:

(In regard "the 'zero to hero' arc': Yes! Yes yes yes! To everything you've said.

 

Igor: Well, I've tended to stay away from Terror, lately, except in cases where I've got them cornered, because I hate when they run away. Unless it's an extra, powerful character that's been making a nuisance of his/herself, it ends up a wasted spell. Terror's only good when they DO retreat to a corner (or better yet: stay clumped in with the rest of the foes) while you slowly kill them.

 

SoT again:

 

I don't use daze much except when I'm in a virtual pickle, since it keeps me from using my area spells, even my beloved Electrocute Three spell. Mass Madness is better: I like watching my foes fight each other . . . but until I get the spell, those MM scrolls are few and far between, as they say.

 

btw: Does anybody know how useful Prismatic Shield is? In the past... in Geneforge at least ("Elemental Cloak") it seemed more useful/effective.

[Randomizer]

Prismatic shield is a useful multishied spell with mindshield thrown in to reduce mental attacks. It doesn't last as long as shield, but reduces damage from elemental and magic attacks.

 

Until you get arcane shield with its spines it really helps.

[-=microphage=-]

Glad to see a topic like this! Yay! I also play on "easy" and usually cheat just enough to get by.

 

Then on subsequent replays I cheat like crazy with anything I can find or invent. It adds another level of fun for me.

microphage

 

Can't say enough good stuff about the built in Editor!!! You can access anytime you want by typing shift D and editor and there it is. Way to go Jeff!!!

[-=microphage=-]

Quote:

Originally written by madrigan:

Quote:

Originally written by Harpster:

"I don't use the codes that remove consequences"

Why not? Maybe we are thinking of 2 different things.

For example, if I free the drake in Harkin's Landing, I don't then use the cheat code to make the town friendly again. I have my superheroes move through the actual plot.

So, does the town get friendly by itself with time or do you just kill everyone or avoid the area and miss all the plot related quests?

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Micro Phage:

Quote:

Originally written by madrigan:

Quote:

Originally written by Harpster:

"I don't use the codes that remove consequences"

Why not? Maybe we are thinking of 2 different things.

For example, if I free the drake in Harkin's Landing, I don't then use the cheat code to make the town friendly again. I have my superheroes move through the actual plot.

So, does the town get friendly by itself with time or do you just kill everyone or avoid the area and miss all the plot related quests?

I'm not sure if the town becomes friendly again, but if I want to free the drake, I do so after I have finished all the quests for the entire area, then run like heck to get to Tranquility. One could also run back into Harkin's Landing and use Daze/Strong Daze/Terror to get to their pylon without killing anybody.

[Evnissyen]

Hmm... Since I gave myself the Gladwell Geas, I only know this situation from killing the Drake, not freeing her, but I'll assume it's the same... nobody in the area gets mad at you except the people within the walls of Harkin's Landing (not even the guy lurking around outside the gate), and you never even need to set foot inside that town again, either... so there's no need for a mad dash to Exodus.

 

And anybody who went straight to Exodus afterward should return to the Drakes Pillars region and talk to a few of the miners. One of them comes back to his mine and sells you stuff in thankfulness for your having killed off Lysstak and the other bandits. If I remember right I think he has a knowledge crystal.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Clavicle:
Hmm... Since I gave myself the Gladwell Geas, I only know this situation from killing the Drake, not freeing her, but I'll assume it's the same... nobody in the area gets mad at you except the people within the walls of Harkin's Landing (not even the guy lurking around outside the gate), and you never even need to set foot inside that town again, either... so there's no need for a mad dash to Exodus.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that when I freed the drake, even the drunk dude outside the town went after me -- but the miners just East of the town did not.

[Grindstone]

the thing is, saving/reloading is basically like cheating anyway... unless you have screwed up your character design beyond hope, saving/reloading will eventually get you through anything. RPGs are basically games of chance, and using the save function (except when quitting the game) basically ruins it. On the other hand, basically all computer RPGs will force you to save/reload (at least on your first run through) because they will at times pit you against hordes of tough monsters or just put you in an instant-death situation. I think CRPGs should become a little more similar to P&P RPGs in that respect, either that or dying and saving/reloading should be handled differently

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Grindstone:
the thing is, saving/reloading is basically like cheating anyway... unless you have screwed up your character design beyond hope, saving/reloading will eventually get you through anything. RPGs are basically games of chance, and using the save function (except when quitting the game) basically ruins it. On the other hand, basically all computer RPGs will force you to save/reload (at least on your first run through) because they will at times pit you against hordes of tough monsters or just put you in an instant-death situation. I think CRPGs should become a little more similar to P&P RPGs in that respect, either that or dying and saving/reloading should be handled differently

So I'm guessing you're a fan of roguelikes.

[dampeoples]

I only ever cheated in A4, it was getting to be springtime, and I was more interested in outdoor activities and the like, I never did finish it, and lost the old save files, for all of my Spiderweb games, actually. Time for a replay

[Evnissyen]

Damnpeoples:

Well, it's almost springtime again (at least in new England), so I guess you'll have to wait another few months.

 

Curses!

 

Myself... I think it's about time I found a job. Except, well, it's almost spring... .

 

Grindstone:

Wait... so... if I have this right: you're suggesting we should have 4 extra lives in case we screw up? Like... um... Donkey Kong? Are we time-traveling back to the 80's?

 

I thought games were supposed to RELIEVE stress, not induce them? Otherwise we'd probably need surgeon-general warnings on the packages. It's bad enough that our own food is killing us... .