Geneforge 3 - Problems and Lankan

[Enraged Slith]

(Watch for Spoilers)

 

This game has a nice feel to it, it's definately a lot smoother than its predecessors. I have a few problems with it so far:

1. Jeff still meansures your allegiance on a single scale (Pro Shaper --- Pro Rebel) even though there are vastly different dimensions of idealogy. I would never pair Creation Rights with (something along the lines of) No Control over Dangerous Shaping Powers. There are also only two factions, and the Rebels are nuts. My character is all for Creation Rights, but to do that she's also got to side with the group that believes in total chaos. The rebels don't believe in reform, they want power. Basically, there is no room for a real opinion in this game.

 

2. The Rebels are completely whacka ding hoy. Lankan, for instance, is angry that the head Shaper on Harmony island wont solve all his problems. When confronted with the completely legitimate and honest response that his help would only exacerbate the current problem, Lankan explodes and whacks the guy in the face, running off and starting a small rebellion. So then I show up, wishing to solve the matter peacefully. Lankan doesn't want to talk, he doesn't want to listen, doesn't want to acknowledge that the Shapers want to solve the matter peacefully. He wants revenge against the Shapers for not being able to help, and has sided with the very faction that caused his problem in the first place. In no way do his quests reflect the current problem. He never asks you to take care of the rogues for him, he asks you to bring him a canister that will give him power. On top of that, for his self-absorbed mission, he tricked a bunch of angry villagers into joining him. If you don't give him everything he wants, he explodes and orders everyone to attack you. What an irrational crybaby.

 

3. Greta and Alwan are interesting, but they aren't very consistent (or perhaps too consistent). In this game I decided to leave Alwan by his lonesome and only take Greta with me. She's been a useful companion so far, but she's far to quick to agree with any Rebel propaganda we run into. Greta seems to believe in reform, not the violence and chaos the rebels preach, yet she agrees with every dangerous idea the rebels have. She sympathizes with every creature who shouts "down with Shapers," even if they're an irrational, hypocritical, and dangerous crybaby (like Lanken.) I guess I don't like them because they're too black and white.

---

 

So here's my problem with Lanken. Because of my high leadership, I was able to schmooze my way into the Shaper's secret underground basement. Once there I found the special canister, and I took it with me. Afterwards, I decided it was time to meet with the Rebels (I guess you can all see where this is going.) So I met with Lankan, looking for a peaceful compromize but found that the guy was crazy. He wanted a canister that would grant him power, but I refused to give him one. Unfortunately, since I had the canister in my possession, he immediately confronted me and dove for the thing. Even though my character wants some reform with the Shapers, she still believes that absolute control over Shaping power must be mantained. Because of this, I desroyed the canister before any harm could be done. Lankan went bat**** loco on me. It never occured to him that I could solve his problems, all he wanted was the power. So he ordered his confused rebel friends to attack me while he ran around in circles, screaming like a lunatic. So I killed him and the guards attacking me, let the townspeople be, and left the town. Now everyones mad at me for killing their beloved village idiot, even though he instigated the attack. Even though I'm pro-reform, Greta is going to leave me because I refused to grant Lankan dangerous power. Because of Lankan, I'm unable to complete a majority of the side quests on the island and my exp draining and useful companion will leave. This is just stupid.

[Student of Trinity]

This is a typical complaint about G3, and it's a fact that the game doesn't permit all the options that ought to make sense. But if you're willing to squint a bit, in order to make the game more fun, you can try to see it like this.

 

There's a war on, son. The time for sweet reason is past; now, it's kill or be killed, and compromise is treason to either side. Once you reach this stage, black and white is how things are, like it or not. Nothing can stop everything from falling onto one side or the other. Most people are panicking, so the hottest heads automatically have the most support, and they will have the last word, no matter how senseless it is. It's the hawks' hour; the doves are all dead.

 

Choose your side, slam down the hatch, and put the pedal to the metal till there's nothing left to shoot. Then you can start thinking about which opinion would really be the best. Only then.

[Starman1985]

Or you could just kill everything you see like me.

[Lilith]

If you're careful, it is possible to solve the Lankan situation without helping or killing him: just deal with the rogues yourself, avoid visiting Lankan after finding his canister, and everyone's happy. Later islands don't have such feel-good solutions, though.

[Randomizer]

If you wait until seeing Lankin after going to the next island and reaching Dhonal's Keep, there is someone who will take the canister. Then you are safte to go back.

[Enraged Slith]

Quote:

If you wait until seeing Lankin after going to the next island and reaching Dhonal's Keep, there is someone who will take the canister. Then you are safte to go back.

He's dead in all my saves. Not only will these few annoying quests stick in my menu for the rest of the game but my companion Greta is going to leave. What a waste of EXP. Game breaker. I nominate Lanken the worst character in all of gaming history.

[Xaiya]

Well, G4 is a hell of a lot better. If you can't stand to playing G3 long enough to beat it...G4 is always the option.

[Enraged Slith]

Well G3 isn't bad, it's actually more engrossing than the other three. The worst thing about it is the lack of realistic options to choose from, the black and white setting, as well as some story pathing issues (like accidentally getting the canister before meeting Lanken, which although adds some nice realism, hurts the game because you're left with a bundle of unbeatable quests.) Some of the characters are too inconsistent or just poorly written. Greta sympathizes with every poor group of people you come across and yet has no problem with the fact that an entire school of innocent students was wiped out by the very faction she admires. Lanken blames shaping for all his problems, and yet knowingly sides with the Shaper who caused his problems and tries to take the very power he despises for himself. This could be the reason why Jeff added the Trakovites in G4.

[Student of Trinity]

I wouldn't say the characters are badly written; they're just not all enlightened Trakovites.

 

Greta got kicked out of the Shaper school, so she naturally has some resentment towards them. But those students hardly count as innocent: they are oppressors-in-training.

 

Lankan doesn't object to magical power, but to the failure of the Shapers to use their power to protect his people. He wants a chance to do better himself.

[Jeran Korak]

In training? This is just like the A2 Slith Quest. You either have to cold-bloodedly slaughter a large number of innocent Slith babies or you let the quest hang in the air. Morals or bad scripting? Both these quests needed a "Sorry I can't" option. And the whole series needs a "Remove Quest" option.

 

Not JV bashing here, just saying this does need to be looked into a bit more.

[Student of Trinity]

No, Litalia slaughtered these youngsters in training, while you were looking at the splash screen. You may eventually decide to join her, but you don't have to approve of all her actions, let alone commit them yourself. And anyway, of all Litalia's actions, killing a schoolful of Alwans is perhaps the most militarily legitimate.

 

An 'abort this quest' button is something I've wanted in the games myself; but it has a problem: there may need to be some way to change your mind, and re-accept a quest after deciding to abandon it. As the game progresses, you may learn that the quest is either more advantageous or less objectionable than it at first seemed.

 

I guess for me what would make more sense than a cancel quest button would be a hide quest button, that would make quests disappear from my quest list. I could then hit a new button to show all the hidden ones, so I could unhide one if I wanted to. If I were really sure that I wasn't ever going to complete a quest, and I really wanted to make it impossible for myself to do it, I should just be able to return to the quest-giving NPC and tell them to take their quest and reabsorb it, sideways.

[Enraged Slith]

Quote:

Greta got kicked out of the Shaper school, so she naturally has some resentment towards them. But those students hardly count as innocent: they are oppressors-in-training.

Still, at least in the beginning, Greta never openly states that she wishes to rebel against the Shapers. I don't have any specific examples to give you but from the way her dialogue was written, I got the impression that Greta only sympathized with those hurt by the Shapers (rather than actively hating the Shapers.) Her desire for reform was driven by her compassion for those hurt by the Shapers, so why on Earth does she sympathize with Litalia, a rogue shaper who slaughtered her old classmates and produced rogues to annihilate the populace? It seems inconsistent that one so abhored by the violence the Shapers cause would encourage the use of unrestrained violence to change their ways.

Quote:

Lankan doesn't object to magical power, but to the failure of the Shapers to use their power to protect his people. He wants a chance to do better himself.

I got this impression too but his response to breaking the canister still seemed overly harsh and unrealistic. Not only does he side with the Shaper admittedly responsible for his problems, he never asks you to help destroy the rogues.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Gauldoth Half-Dead:

 

Quote:

This is just like the A2 Slith Quest. You either have to cold-bloodedly slaughter a large number of innocent Slith babies or you let the quest hang in the air.

The Secret Sliths? You should be able to complete the quest just by killing the head chief/priest/mage or whoever the leader there is. No slaughtering of innocent children required.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Student of Trinity]

The fact that Lankan never even considers that you might be able to deal with the rogues is indeed a weakness in the game. It's an example of the single biggest weakness I find in all Spiderweb games so far, except perhaps G4 — and of course in most other RPGs. The player's levelling up has no in-game rationale, and thus the plot cannot deal in any reasonable way with the single biggest phenomenon that transpires over the course of the game, namely the PC's advancement from peon to demigod.

 

Why does the PC gain so much power so quickly? Why can't everyone else just go out and bash some monsters, level up a couple dozen times, and then come back and solve all their problems themselves?

 

In G1 it's actually not so bad, in that the PC is at least respected, although prematurely, as a Shaper. In G2 and G3, everyone treats you as a helpless apprentice, except when they're giving you missions too big for a Shaper army. When you accomplish these, they still treat you as a helpless apprentice. It's as if you're Clark Kent. Lankan seems to assume that the most you can do is talk to people and carry canisters, when in fact, of course, you're the reason he doesn't need no stinking Shapers. There could definitely have been an option to tell Lankan, Relax, go home, I'll handle this. Then after succeeding you should be able to dictate peace to Lankan and Diwaniya.

 

One thing that most of the Geneforge games seem to imply, without ever being really clear about it, is that there are actually a lot more rogues or rebels or whatever than the ones that you encounter as a player. It's as though 90% of the bad critters are holed up between the zones somewhere, and can only be cleared out by huge Shaper armies, in the ending texts. So in this sense the player's power is still limited. But this explanation only goes so far, since you can definitely eliminate the spawners or creators or whatever that are the source of the monsters. And it's only rather weakly implied, at best.

 

In G4 people seem to assume consistently that as Lifecrafter you are a force to be reckoned with, and that you are quite abnormal. But given the Geneforge theme of gaining power, G4 could have been still more explicit about just why you gain power so much more rapidly than anyone else, and how other people deal with that evident fact. Even G4 never takes any notice of the fact that you are not just abnormally effective, but are actually gaining power at an enormous rate, such that you'll be able to toast named Drakons within a few months of having to run from rogue worms.

[Starman1985]

Why is because you are the secret son of Christ(David Bowie).

[Student of Trinity]

And if Jeff would put that into a pop-up, I'd be happy.

 

Edit: Not ecstatic, mind.

[DokEnkephalin]

It's hard to believe that Lankan would be leading anyone at all. He threw a tantum at the only person who could've helped him, and then ran away to be even more helpless and miserable than he was before. Before Litalia promised him a canister his only plan was to wretchedly wait to die, and after that canister was intercepted his only plan was to wretchedly wait to die while pining for a canister. What are those rebels really doing there, what motivated them to follow this guy who's boldest action was something he admits was a desperate f*ckup?

 

Then when you do bring him that power, does he say, "Now I've got a bargaining chip. I can represent these people." No, while surrounded by people who are severely vulnerable to his power, he says, "I've got the might that makes right, and now I'll show everyone just how wrong they are!" And yet they don't flee right back to the relative sanity of the civilization they grew up in?

 

For that, they all deserve to die, but I showed mercy on them, too. Or pity.

[Taliesin]

The canister triggered for me too, but fortunately I didn't kill Lankan. However, I killed some guards on the way out, which got me some nice experience, and didn't anger anyone.

 

Geneforge 3 is certainly more black and white then G4. However, this is good news for people who like to play as a purist. Unlike G4, there is little incentive to be a double agent, so to speak. And you never have to do anything brutal as a loyalist. Sure, you wipe out a town or two eventually, but they put up quite a fight. However, I did not slaughter the defenseless servile mushroom farmers who provide food for the rebellion. All they do is walk around working and saying cute things like "Yummy shrooms!" Fortunately, no one told me to purge them, so I escaped Litalia's dilemma.

[Azarr]

In my opinion, Geneforge 1 & 2 is the best in the series, it went a bit downhill in Geneforge 3, while it improved slightly in Geneforge 4 and went downhill at the same time(mostly because I hate playing as a rebel and prefer playing as a shaper).

 

I would also like the means to remove quests, as I sometimes end up with pro-rebel quests I don't want, or can't complete because I already did something that prevents me from completing that quest.

 

The biggest mistake(in my opinion) in the series is that you can't skip the tutorial(correct me if I'm wrong).

[Hyena of Ice]

Some of the characters are too inconsistent or just poorly written. Greta sympathizes with every poor group of people you come across and yet has no problem with the fact that an entire school of innocent students was wiped out by the very faction she admires. Lanken blames shaping for all his problems, and yet knowingly sides with the Shaper who caused his problems and tries to take the very power he despises for himself.

I don't find it inconsistent or poorly written at all.

 

Regarding Lankan:

1. First and foremost, Litalia offers him a solution to a problem that he is desperate to have solved, by whatever means necessary.

2. He doesn't understand why Litalia released monsters that she wanted him to defeat. He says he thought it was just a weird shaper thing. If you confront him about it, he admits that he hates siding with her, knowing this, but has no other choice.

3. He sides with Litalia because she hangs a carrot on a stick in front of him. E.g. he is desperate, and unlike Diwiyana, Litalia offers him a solution to his problem. So be blindly trusts her, because he feels he has no other choice.

 

 

Quote:

Greta got kicked out of the Shaper school, so she naturally has some resentment towards them. But those students hardly count as innocent: they are oppressors-in-training.

Still, at least in the beginning, Greta never openly states that she wishes to rebel against the Shapers. I don't have any specific examples to give you but from the way her dialogue was written, I got the impression that Greta only sympathized with those hurt by the Shapers (rather than actively hating the Shapers.) Her desire for reform was driven by her compassion for those hurt by the Shapers, so why on Earth does she sympathize with Litalia, a rogue shaper who slaughtered her old classmates and produced rogues to annihilate the populace? It seems inconsistent that one so abhored by the violence the Shapers cause would encourage the use of unrestrained violence to change their ways.

There is nothing wrong with any of this portrayal. She goes through character development, down a dark path. Initially she is unsure about what side to be on, but is dead-opposed to Litalia's creation-sowing. Later, she comes to agree with half of Litalia's goal (helping rebels), but deplores the slaughter of innocents on either side. Later however, she becomes seduced by the prospect of power without the shapers, and by Litalia's words. Gradually, she has less and less problem with killing innocents on the shaper side, to the point of becoming indifferent towards it if it will help the rebels achieve freedom. Finally when you meet Litalia at the entrance to Benerii-Eos, she tearfully agrees entirely with Litalia that the shapers must be slaughtered. Compare this final conclusion with her behavior on Harmony Isle, where she is consistently in agreement with Alwan that the rogues must be destroyed, and shows only a trace of doubt about whether or not Litalia is heinous.

 

 

Quote:

Lankan doesn't object to magical power, but to the failure of the Shapers to use their power to protect his people. He wants a chance to do better himself.

I got this impression too but his response to breaking the canister still seemed overly harsh and unrealistic. Not only does he side with the Shaper admittedly responsible for his problems, he never asks you to help destroy the rogues.

IIRC he does ask you to destroy the rogues/awakening stone if you're alignment is pro-rebel.

Also, there is no flaw in the writing or excess in his reaction to the canister breaking.

Remember back to Diwiyana's and Khyryk's notes. They feel an innate attraction to and temptation to use the canister. One could argue that in Khyryk's case it is not innate, but in Diwiyana's, he has no idea what they will do to him, yet feels tempted to use them-- this is despite knowing fully well what dipping one's hand in mystery essence could do to a person. Bear in mind that these are full-fledged shapers.

Lankan seems similarly drawn to the green canister, which seems to react with him when in the room. However, Lankan possesses neither the knowledge nor intense self-discipline that shapers possess. Combine this with his naturally volatile temper, and obviously he won't be able to restrain himself.

[Spukrian]

Regarding Lankan:

1. First and foremost, Litalia offers him a solution to a problem that he is desperate to have solved, by whatever means necessary.

2. He doesn't understand why Litalia released monsters that she wanted him to defeat. He says he thought it was just a weird shaper thing. If you confront him about it, he admits that he hates siding with her, knowing this, but has no other choice.

3. He sides with Litalia because she hangs a carrot on a stick in front of him. E.g. he is desperate, and unlike Diwiyana, Litalia offers him a solution to his problem. So be blindly trusts her, because he feels he has no other choice.

The point is that he has a choice - more than one in fact.

1. Lankan should realize that the PC is fully able to take care of the rogue problem.

2. The captain of the guard (forgot his name, sorry) tells you to go to Lankan and offer him a deal, as a peaceful solution. Lankan refuses.

 

The conclusion I draw from this is that Lankan is lying through his teeth. He has been lying to the other gatherer rebels and most of what he tells you when you talk to him are lies. He doesn't care about the rogue creations. He just wants power so he will be able to kill Shapers.

[Hyena of Ice]

The point is that he has a choice - more than one in fact.

1. Lankan should realize that the PC is fully able to take care of the rogue problem.

2. The captain of the guard (forgot his name, sorry) tells you to go to Lankan and offer him a deal, as a peaceful solution. Lankan refuses.

 

The conclusion I draw from this is that Lankan is lying through his teeth. He has been lying to the other gatherer rebels and most of what he tells you when you talk to him are lies. He doesn't care about the rogue creations. He just wants power so he will be able to kill Shapers.

 

He refuses because as he said, it won't accomplish anything. His entire outburst etc. is because his people are in danger from the rogues. His arrest, or even death, will not change their predicament. If Lankan is imprisoned or dies, then that's one less able-bodied rebel gatherer to protect the group.

 

Also, one cannot take his behavior once he gets the canister, since it does the same thing to him that it did to Agatha-- and she is a senior shaper with lots of shaper training! In contrast, Lankan has a volatile temper and no training for self-discipline.

 

And why should he trust you to take care of the rogues? You're a shaper, like Diwiyana. That said, he may well harbor some homicidal fantasies towards the shapers. Or at least towards Diwiyana.

[Spukrian]

He refuses because as he said, it won't accomplish anything. His entire outburst etc. is because his people are in danger from the rogues. His arrest, or even death, will not change their predicament. If Lankan is imprisoned or dies, then that's one less able-bodied rebel gatherer to protect the group.

Actually, Lankan and the rebels giving up would definitely accomplish something, as it would prevent bloodshed and possibly save the lives of the other rebels. Or do you believe Diwaniya would be more merciful if the rebels held out untill the guards find them instead of giving up?

 

Furthermore, Lankan knows that Litalia created the rogues. Has he shared this information with the other rebels? If so, do you really think that they agree with his decision to ally with her? Do you really think that they would stay with Lankan voluntarily?

 

And why should he trust you to take care of the rogues? You're a shaper, like Diwiyana. That said, he may well harbor some homicidal fantasies towards the shapers. Or at least towards Diwiyana.

That doesn't make any sense to me - he believes Diwaniya will somehow be able to deal with the rogues, yet he refuses to believe that the PC will be able to. And he asks the PC to remove the clawbugs, so that they can build trust. Yet when he trusts the PC, he asks him to get the canister instead of helping with the rogues.

[wackypanda]

The point is that he has a choice - more than one in fact.

1. Lankan should realize that the PC is fully able to take care of the rogue problem.

 

I think that Lankan's major flaw is that he is badly written, which is distinct from being a stubborn idiot per se... the evidence being the complete absence of any dialogue branch with him that even touches on this (e.g. "As a Shaper, I am going to take care of your rogue problem."). This is the most obvious thing to say to him, and his response would be enlightening. (Did he not bring it up because he's a stubborn idiot? Simply didn't realise that this was a viable solution? Or does he have a more plausible reason for rejecting this solution?)

 

Not being able to say this and see Lankan's response is pure railroading. In fact, it's worse because the game explicitly gives you this solution in the form of Diwaniya's orders, so wondering why it's off the rails to propose a solution that the game itself does adds to my frustration.

 

The issue of whether Lankan should surrender is secondary to the railroading issue, as the reason he gives for not surrendering is that Diwaniya won't solve the rogue problem if he did - the obvious response is the same and is still absent.

[Spukrian]

IIRC I've read in a thread here somewhere, that the reason for this is that Jeff wanted to simulate a war, and in wars you don't compromise, you pick a side. I believe that is the real reason behind the railroading of the story... and you're right, it IS frustrating. On the other hand, the whole situation being frustrating causes it to be memorable. Lankan is the kind of character you love to hate.

[wackypanda]

Lankan is the kind of character you love to hate.

 

Hm... that is where we differ. If the following conversation (in whatever level of detail) were in the game:

 

"Shaper Diwaniya won't protect us from the rogues, so we need that canister to have the power to kill the rogues."

"Shaper Diwaniya has ordered me, as a Shaper, to take care of the rogue problem."

"That doesn't help us, because [insert BS]"

 

...then I would agree with you. As it is, there is no indication in any of Lankan's dialogue that he has any ulterior motive besides getting rid of the rogues. The only reason to conclude that he won't agree with Diwaniya's plan (whatever the reason) is that the game doesn't allow you to propose it.

 

Hence, I don't like Lankan, but I'm not willing to say it's completely his fault.

 

IIRC I've read in a thread here somewhere, that the reason for this is that Jeff wanted to simulate a war, and in wars you don't compromise, you pick a side. I believe that is the real reason behind the railroading of the story... and you're right, it IS frustrating.

 

I haven't seen that, so I'll take your word for it. But if I wanted to write a game plot about the impossibility of compromise in war, I could:

 

A. Write about two or more groups with mutually exclusive goals, and ask the player whose goals they wish to support.

B. Write about two groups with a misunderstanding over the means of achieving an ostensibly shared goal, have the side that can be expected to know the most about the PC's capabilities propose that the PC attain that goal, then prevent the player from checking whether the other side is aware of this proposal, not even as a means of determining whether their true goal is different from what was previously stated.

 

I know what I'd pick, but I'm not Jeff.

[Hyena of Ice]

Jeff's pick was indeed a bit different-- partly the lack of options mentioned above, but also being pigeonholed into one side or the other (which we all hate), in addition, the recurring theme from G1 and 2 where no side is all that great-- though in this game it's far worse. The Rebels are now like Takers x10 as far as motives-- some just want to survive, and then you have ones who run the entire gamut between good and evil. With the rebels in G3 it's far more diverse, with a stronger predominance for evil than earlier titles. Just off my head, this is the first time that the cultists are allied with anyone-- they were hated in G1 and 2-- and in fact the Takers understandably want you to wipe them out in the first two titles. In G3 you are forced to work with these revilers if you want to side with the rebels. Actually, this may well be an example of poor writing-- it makes no sense to me that the cultists would join the rebellion knowing that Litalia is its 2nd in command, let alone that the rebellion includes humans. OTOH, the cultists seem less crazy in G3, some of them much less so. The most fanatical thing I ever see is the way that they treat semi-sapient servilles.

 

But really, the overall theme here, as I've mentioned before, is that in their war/etc. efforts, both sides have become precisely what they despise in the other. I would have loved the option, BTW, to point out to Litalia that she did to the students precisely what her master forced her to do to those independent servilles. Then, when she rebuts with "it's not comparable! They were little genocidal maniacs in the making!" I respond with "wasn't that what you once were? How do you know that none of them would have become allies?"

Even if it only served to piss her off, it would have been well worth it.

Then there's the danger all those rogues pose to the very people Litalia is supposedly fighting for. Icy End culminates the display of the Rebels' hypocrisy, where you see that the Drayks take too much after the shapers-- despite the romanticized freedom this freedom that, the servilles have no choice in whether or not to obey the drayks, and those who do not contibute to the war effort are killed or exiled (or so it is implied) -- unfortunately, this was also the case in G2. And once again, we see chained up subsapient and non-sapient creations.

 

On the shaper side, things don't look much better. You have an us-vs-them mentality towards outsiders, and shaper society is set up in a way that only council members have any say over laws etc-- e.g. nobody outside of the council can file charges against a higher up or even against the government itself, and everyone is expected to be little yes-men bareft of independent thought. Outsiders get second-class citizenship status, despite all the romanticism and "they owe us" mentality from the shapers. Outsiders also lack the legal rights or representation allowed to shapers. Hell, shapers on the lower rungs of the social ladder, too. Shapers have the right to violate basic rights of whoever they wish, esp. outsiders-- full right to barge into their homes, demand being given their goods/belongings for free/without compensation, etc. And the higher-ups have full right to send spies to trespass upon and even break and enter into another person's property.

Add to that the fact that shapers are guilty of wholescale genocide.

One of the most damning, we have shaper Agatha, and Rahul's complatency-- even approval of her crimes-- which encompass some of the most sacred of all shaper laws! This is where the shapers have become just like what they despise in their enemies.

 

You'll note in my postings that I am much more critical, and harsher to the shapers. You're damn right I am! The rebels/outsiders are ignorant and untrained. They don't understand the danger of using canisters/strange substances, they don't know the history of shaping and thus why unapproved use of shaper secrets is dangerous.

Shapers, however, know better. That is why Agatha's actions are so unforgivable (this applies to Litalia as well-- she may have rebelled shortly after graduation, but even an apprentice knows why sharing shaper secrets, direct contact with unknown essence, or creating fertile creations is bad)

Also, many of the rebels are laity, while shapers are the academia and government of the land-- thus I hold them to higher standards.

[Sudanna]

The cultists have actually been associated with the Takers since G1. They have a little monastery-thing adjacent to the main Taker town in both G1 and G2, and it's mentioned that they work together. There are also independent cultists, though.

[Spukrian]

As it is, there is no indication in any of Lankan's dialogue that he has any ulterior motive besides getting rid of the rogues. The only reason to conclude that he won't agree with Diwaniya's plan (whatever the reason) is that the game doesn't allow you to propose it.

I do agree with you that the conflict is badly written. Lankan having ulterior motives is how I make sense of it, because the situation doesn't make any sense. It's almost a plothole.

Hence, I don't like Lankan, but I'm not willing to say it's completely his fault.

Diwaniya is definitely quite stubborn as well...

One of the most damning, we have shaper Agatha, and Rahul's complatency-- even approval of her crimes-- which encompass some of the most sacred of all shaper laws! This is where the shapers have become just like what they despise in their enemies.

Did Rahul really know of and approve of Agatha's crimes? I thought what Agatha and the other Shapers were working was secret and classified, at least untill the PC takes care of the problems on the island.

[Triumph]

Yeah, it's pretty clear that Agatha's activities are illicit and kept secret. There's Rahul's apprentice, Khyryk, who was on the island but didn't know about it, and there's that agent (her name escapes me?) who is working for Rahul who likewise doesn't give any signs of approval.

[Hyena of Ice]

The cultists have actually been associated with the Takers since G1. They have a little monastery-thing adjacent to the main Taker town in both G1 and G2, and it's mentioned that they work together. There are also independent cultists, though.

 

Maybe on paper. In reality however, the takers view the cultists as fanatics, and the average civilian is afraid of them. In both titles, you can get a quest to eradicate the cultists. OTOH, it's also worth mentioning that the Takers are the most diverse of the three Serville sects in G1 and 2. The Awakened and Obeyers are fairly homogenous, while the takers run the whole gamut on views, with the base being that the only way to ensure Serville freedom is by fighting for it. Nonetheless, I never got the impression that the Takers liked or worked with the cultists in the first two titles-- In G1, it seemed more like the cultists were forced upon them, while in G2 they were barely tolerated so long as they kept to themselves (which they hadn't been doing lately) The pervading view is that the cultists are scary and crazy.

 

In G3 they seem a bit less crazy and better tolerated by the rebels, which makes no sense, because even G3 makes it clear that they hate all humans, so how can they work with Akhari knowing that a human is his first in command, let alone live in Stonespire where humans still dwell. All three titles are clear that in order to gain magical powers, they must (in addition to self-denial and self-flagellation) nurture and focus on a hatred that is all consuming, and their goal, at least from my understanding, is not only the destruction of shapers, but also the genocide of humans. I simply cannot reconcile the idea that they would work for creations willing to accept, work with, and coexist with humans.

 

Yeah, it's pretty clear that Agatha's activities are illicit and kept secret. There's Rahul's apprentice, Khyryk, who was on the island but didn't know about it, and there's that agent (her name escapes me?) who is working for Rahul who likewise doesn't give any signs of approval.

 

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. The game itself states "Rahul has some explaining to do" when you read Agatha's notes. Remember what I said in my previous post about the Agent spies? There's no way that Rahul wouldn't know that Agatha was breaking the rules prior to the rebellion-- and make no mistake-- Agatha was engaged in these activities for some time prior to the attack on the school. On top of that, you have the option to go back to Rahul and report to him what you have discovered, and his response is "my orders have not changed". (granted, this dialogue was made to be vague so that it would encompass more than just Agatha's misdeeds) Finally, the Shaper ending, from what I hear, makes clear that Rahul has no intention of ever prosecuting Agatha, even though it is well within his authority to do so, seeing as these crimes were committed on HIS islands, and even if he doesn't have the authority to try her for her crimes, he can easily brand her as a threat due to her current power + canister obsession and send a team to assassinate or just plain slaughter her. The fact remains however, that Rahul is still willing to work with her despite her instability and obsession for more canisters, thus running the risk that she becomes another Litalia.

[Triumph]

Oho! This calls for a rebuttal! Now, I’m not saying Rahul is clean and pure as the wind-driven snow, but I don’t think you’re being fair here at all.

 

First, let’s get Rahul’s orders for going to Gull Island: “There is a skilled, loyal Shaper on Gull Island. His name is Khyryk. I wish you to go there. Find him. See what is going wrong there, and help him as best you can. Once you have helped Khyryk, return and let me know what has been happening. Then I can direct you further.”

 

If you go to Gull Island and then come back to chat with Rahul about what you’ve seen, you get “Very troublesome. Very worrying. But my instructions are unchanged. Deal with Khyryk, and help him.”

 

Once you report that you’ve followed orders and aided Khyryk, and give your full report on Gull Island, Rahul says: “Then progress has truly been made. Not only has another island been purged and a traitor destroyed, but we have learned a great deal about the plans of our enemies.” From there he immediately jumps into talking about your mission to destroy the Geneforge.

 

So in terms of Rahul’s orders, I’d say he’s focused on winning the war above all else. “Help Khyryk” translates to “Secure Gull Island from the rebels.” As soon as you’ve done that, he’s focused on sending you on the next war-related mission. And really, as a lowly roving troubleshooter, it’s improbable that Rahul that would discuss judicial action against Agatha and her cohorts with you. It's none of your business, so why would he tell you about it? Now, this does NOT prove Rahul was going to prosecute Agatha. NOR does it prove he was going to let her off the hook. My argument is that there are logical reasons why you wouldn’t happen to hear Rahul talk about the matter.

 

There’s an additional reason why Rahul might say nothing about taking action against Agatha. The source is Agatha’s own words in Stonespire (if you ask her about her research after you’ve freed her): “If I am doomed, it will not be at your hands, youngling! What I have done wrong will be answered for to the Council, and nobody lower. Now leave me be for a while.” It’s quite possible that Rahul did not have sufficient authority (under the Shapers’ somewhat murky governmental system) to pass sentence on Agatha.

 

Finally, the epilogue supports this interpretation. In the game ending, if you were pro-Shaper, you return the mainland and report to the Shaper authorities on what was happened. When you tell about Gull Island, the Shaper authorities’ response: “They are understandably shocked by the state of the island, and how Agatha allowed everything to slip so far out of control. They also shake their heads when they hear of Agatha’s illegal experiments.” And then what is the outcome of this? Well, the Gull Island epilogue: “A force of Shapers, under the command of a young, passionate, newly promoted Guardian, rounded up and executed Agatha and the other Shapers who joined her in her forbidden experiments.”

 

You suggest that Rahul could still make a pariah of Agatha. Maybe. But again, your (the PC's) status as a lowly apprentice now serving as an assassin means that Rahul isn't necessarily going to ask you to proofread the op-ed he's writing for the Dhonal Times condemning Agatha's deeds. You also suggest that Rahul could just have Agatha assassinated. But that would fly in the face of Rahul's character - he's the staunch uphold-Shaper-law figure! Having Agatha murdered instead of waiting for the Shaper judicial system to run its course is not fitting for the lawful Shaper lord of the Ashen Isles. Now, you personally might think that lynching Agatha would be more practical, but that doesn't mean Rahul is complicit in her crimes if he doesn't lynch her.

 

Next, you claim there’s “no way” Rahul was ignorant of what Agatha was doing. That flies in the face of testimony by multiple other loyal shapers. The first two had both been on Gull Island for some time

 

First, there’s Khyryk (who says he arrived on Gull Island a decade ago). He says the following: “The first thing we need to do is find out why Agatha and her other Shapers grew so strange and distant in the year before the rebellion.” Once you find out and tell him: “He listens to the story with horror. ‘The fool! Oh, when we rescue her, she will have much to answer for! It is obvious that the serviles were giving her gifts on the rogues' behalf. No doubt, Litalia selected the knowledge to give herself’.”

 

Second, there’s Agent Macallan (who had been working for Agatha for more than a year). When you tell her what Agatha was really doing: “She looks stunned. ‘Drayks? New, unapproved sorts of creations? Using books delivered from who knows where? I thought Agatha's secrecy was just regular Shaper paranoia. I had no idea she was a ... a ... criminal!’” In Macallan’s further defense, Agatha’s own diary makes clear how hard Agatha tried to keep Macallan in the dark and keep her from finding about what was really going on.

 

Finally, there’s recent arrival Agent Diamant (sent by Rahul AFTER you yourself arrived on the island). When you tell her what Agatha was doing: “Diamant looks disgusted. ‘I will definitely tell Lord Rahul all about that. Someone will have to pay for this’.”

 

On the basis of these witnesses (plus the documentary evidence in Agatha's diary that shows her own efforts to keep secret her activities), I find it unreasonable to suggest that Rahul knew what Agatha was doing.

 

I would love to know where you got the line “Rahul has some explaining to do” from. I can find NO evidence that the game ever says such a line, at least not in any of the scripts for Gull Island zones (and I'm pretty sure I searched them all). If you can’t back up the claim that the game says this, it further weakens your case that Rahul is somehow complicit in Agatha’s crimes.

 

So, end results: 1. There are good reasons why Rahul might not say anything to you (the PC) about punishing Agatha. 2. It is clear that (in the non-canonical reality where the Shapers are victorious in G3) the Shaper authorities would punish Agatha. 3. And there is good evidence that Rahul had no idea what Agatha was doing.

 

I never guessed I would end up as Rahul's defense lawyer. LOL.

[Hyena of Ice]

First, there’s Khyryk (who says he arrived on Gull Island a decade ago). He says the following: “The first thing we need to do is find out why Agatha and her other Shapers grew so strange and distant in the year before the rebellion.” Once you find out and tell him: “He listens to the story with horror. ‘The fool! Oh, when we rescue her, she will have much to answer for! It is obvious that the serviles were giving her gifts on the rogues' behalf. No doubt, Litalia selected the knowledge to give herself’.”

That is only half correct. I recently re-played that part. You are correct that he was unaware that she was using canisters. However he was WELL aware of the illegal activity taking place in the warrens, as he mentions "strange creations" at the warrens before he left. If the player can tell that Rotghoroths are illegal with a cursory glance, alone, then someone like Khyryk sure as hell can as well.

 

Second, there’s Agent Macallan (who had been working for Agatha for more than a year). When you tell her what Agatha was really doing: “She looks stunned. ‘Drayks? New, unapproved sorts of creations? Using books delivered from who knows where? I thought Agatha's secrecy was just regular Shaper paranoia. I had no idea she was a ... a ... criminal!’” In Macallan’s further defense, Agatha’s own diary makes clear how hard Agatha tried to keep Macallan in the dark and keep her from finding about what was really going on.

 

Finally, there’s recent arrival Agent Diamant (sent by Rahul AFTER you yourself arrived on the island). When you tell her what Agatha was doing: “Diamant looks disgusted. ‘I will definitely tell Lord Rahul all about that. Someone will have to pay for this’.”

Hmm, you do have a point there.

 

So, end results: 1. There are good reasons why Rahul might not say anything to you (the PC) about punishing Agatha. 2. It is clear that (in the non-canonical reality where the Shapers are victorious in G3) the Shaper authorities would punish Agatha. 3. And there is good evidence that Rahul had no idea what Agatha was doing.

The shapers have full authority to assassinate or execute someone extrajudicially who is an immediate threat. Agatha could become another Litalia at any moment. I mean, to shoot your argument down, Rahul has no problem killing you with his own hand right then and there if you so much as mention your actions after turning rebel, even if you show no signs of violence or hostility. He only imprisons you during that assassination quest at the end of the game.

Hmm. This actually looks like poor design. Why does he kill you outright if you lie or confess to him about your rebel activities, while he merely imprisons you when you try to assassinate him? And why is he so utterly flabbergasted if you confess your crime to him, yet if you lie, he tells you that he already knows exactly what you did?

[Hyena of Ice]

I just noticed some plotholes in G3-- This is a carry-over from my post in the fic thread, with an additional one.

 

Also regarding G3-- here is a timeline I have collected. The more plot-integral entries are in bold.

 

--The Narration states that unlike you, Alwan is close to being initiated.

--You haven't been to Fort Kentia in several years-- not since you were rushed through there on your way to the Academy.

--Greta was expelled a few weeks prior to the attack on the Academy.

--The owner of the abandoned home at the South End left a few weeks ago

--Hawthorne, in E. Kentia, states that no shapers have visited his shop in weeks.

--Nobody has been in the Kentia cellars for weeks.

--The Kentia miners had gone for years without a single death up until the rogues came.

--One of Bruni's soldiers got killed by a roamer the week prior to your arrival at the Harmony East Docks

--Arabella of San Ru has been unable to get the serviles to work for weeks.

--Suzanna, the alchemist in San Ru, has been out of wiry moss for a week when you meet her.

--Diwaniya is only a few years older than you, "though clearly more skilled"

--Norell has been working for Diwaniya "for a few years"

--When you meet Diwaniya, he says it would not surprise him if a rebel shaper was involved, considering what he has seen "in the last few weeks"

--Siri, at the loyalist gatherer camp, states that she saw Litalia weeks ago.

--Greta doesn't think that the rebel gatherers have had a decent meal in weeks

--Lankan says that the shaper academy was attacked "a few weeks ago"

--Lankan has had no contact with Litalia since she left weeks ago.

--The clawbugs using the Calming Stone have been without shaper control for weeks

--The hidden cache of broken canisters in the Vlish Woods were used several weeks ago.

--When we arrive at Fort Wilton, we are told that the quarantine has lasted for months. Narration states that nobody has been in the Storage Sheds for months.

--Commander Sobel states that Greiner's army has been at a stalemate with the rebels for weeks.

--Vander states that the Ambush Bridge rogues only came a few weeks ago.

--Vander states that the Alchemy shop in the upper right corner of the Ambush Bridge was open just a few months ago.

--When asked, Vander guesses that he and his army has been stationed near the bridge for around a month, but that the rogues only arrived a few days ago.

--The Main Army Camp has been there for months, beginning "not long after the monsters appeared"

--When you return to the Dhonal Pass after clearing it out, you meet a soldier named Hullum who has been cleaning up the mess at the outpost. He hasn't slept in the past three days

--Telegin the Sholai, at the Inner Keep, states that the quarantine has trapped him there for months

--Lord Rahul states that he has ruled the Ashen Isles for 30 years.

--When you meet Lord Rahul, he tells you that he has known about the attack on the academy for weeks.

--He also tells you that he has been unable to contact General Greiner for weeks.

--Phasia has lived alone for a few years when his wife died. (a ballpark figure for how long ago his son and daughter left is not given)

--Bradsher, Greiner's assistant, states that his strange behavior began weeks ago. When you find Greiner, narration states that he hasn't shaven in days.

--When you remove the shade from Greiner, if you have enough leadership, you can get him to draw his blade "for the first time in weeks"

--Stringer has been at the Northshore Bridge for weeks

--Rose has been camped out near the Darkstone Mine Gates for weeks.

--Nyall states that the brambles at the Overgrown Road weren't there a few months ago.

(Unfortunately, as soon as you step out of the gates of the SE Gull Docks, the above timeline is greatly contradicted on and off.)

--Narration states that it has been weeks since you first met Litalia at the gates of your school.

--Litalia was approached by Akhari Blaze several years after she first began to feel animosity towards the Shapers. (if we take this from her backstory at the Benerii Eo gates, then one would conclude that several years passed between her desertion of the shapers and joining Akhari Blaze. The latter happened, depending on who you believe, several months to several years prior to the beginning of the rebellion.)

--Macallan states that the serviles of Stonespire began to act strangely for several months before the attacks began.

--The servant mind at the Display Warrens has been neglected for weeks.

--The vats in the Breeding Pits have been neglected for weeks.

--Shaper Jolana hasn't seen Shaper Agatha in months

--Litalia tried to convince Khyryk into joining the rebellion a few weeks before you stepped foot on his doorstep.

--Khyryk states that Shaper Agatha "and her other shapers began to act strange and distant in the years before the rebellion"

--Khyryk states that both the serviles began to act strangely about a year ago. At the same time, Agatha and her servants began to act cold and distant. "Eventually she retreated into her mansion", at which point she refused to see anyone at all. Around the same time that she holed up in her mansion, reports spread of "strange and unfamiliar creations" being made in the Warrens. (contradicts the entry above)

--Khyryk states that the kidnapping of the Shapers happened when the rebellion began.

--At Shaper Agatha's mansion, the narration states that the rebellion began only weeks ago, but that the mansion has suffered months of neglect

--The "Shaper Control" pylons at the Maker's End were installed a few years ago.

--When you arrive at the Isle of Spears docks, narration states that it is near the end of the year and that winter is coming (indicating that you arrive in late Autumn.)

--Rall hasn't seen her mate since he left to go work in the Mushroom Caves, months ago

--Mooralas, Hoge's assistant, was sent to the Icy End by Hoge months prior to the Academy's destruction.

--Mooralas states that Hoge met Litalia during his trip to Gull Island, 3 years ago.

--The Shapers at the Besieged Camp have been holding out for weeks.

--Nazar states that the supplies needed to build the Icy End were smuggled over by friendly Gull Isle serviles "over the years"

--The serviles have survived their years of hiding out on The Isle of Spears by cultivating the mushrooms they grow in the Mushroom Cave.

 

Conclusion:

The timeline is consistent up until you step foot on Gull Island-- you reach Ft. Kentia weeks after the beginning of the rebellion, the narration continues to say "weeks" throughout Harmony Isle, and that you reach Ft. Wilton months after the rebellion. The last rough timeline indicator is given at the Overgrown Road.

 

Once you are approached at the Gull docks by Litalia, "months" change to "weeks", and we're given contradictory statements on when things first got weird on Gull Island.

--Macallan states that the serviles first began to act strangely months before the rebellion began

--Khyryk states that Agatha and her shapers began to act strangely in the years leading up to the rebellion.

--Khyryk also states that both Agatha and the serviles first began to act strangely around a year ago.

--Nazar states that Gull Island serviles have been smuggling goods into the Isle of Spears for years.

 

Yeah, I never noticed the bad dialogue people talk about until I made that list :\ Khyryk contradicting himself is particularly bad.

 

In all likelihood, Jeff decided to make the timeline shorter when he developed the "kidnapped Shapers have been starved since the rebellion began" plot (which would have to limit the rebellion to a few months at most).

Unfortunately, even abridging the timeline in Dhonal from months to weeks doesn't work, due to General Greiner, who only recently went nutso. It also makes suspension of disbelief difficult when you see how the dispositions Alwan and Greta hold towards the PC change, in addition to their own character development over the course of the game (what, I'm supposed to believe that Greta lost her squeamishness in what-- a week or so? and that Alwan learned how to control his temper/when to keep his mouth shut + how to think for himself when there's nobody to give him orders in a period of 2-3 weeks or something like that? That's not even touching on the more serious character development they undergo in regards to their beliefs!)

 

Another major plothole in G3. In the previous two games, we are told that after several years at the academy, an apprentice must spend an additional several years (the number given in G1 is 5) in vocational training before becoming an initiate. With the possible exception of Litalia, Jeff seems to have completely forgotten about that.

This means several things:

--1. Alwan being close to an initiate makes no sense, if we assume that "about to be initiated as a Guardian" means that he becomes a full shaper.

--2. Litalia's backstory gives a contradictory account of Shaper education. She states that after graduating from an apprentice, she became a novice, then a student, then she got the robes, and had to complete a single mission to become a full shaper. However, you (and to a lesser extent Alwan-- and I believe even Greta a couple of times) are referred to many times as apprentices, and many times as novices. So which is it?

--3. It makes no sense for Diwaniya and Litalia to be just a few years older than you. Diwaniya because he would be at minimum, 7 years older than you. He probably spent a year or close to it as an initiate before being assigned to Harmony Isle, and presumably he has been in charge there for a year or three. This makes it more likely that he is more like 8~11 years older than you. Hardly qualifies as "not much older than you".

Litalia states that after she left the Shapers after completing her vocational training. She also states that several years passed between then and her recruitment by Ghaldarig. We also know that the rebellion was planned for years in advance, so on top of that, Litalia has probably spent a few years with them-- at minimum, 3 by the time you reach the Icy End. So, Litalia would probably be a decade older than you at the very least! In my mind, "not much older than you" signifies 5 years or less. If we take her word about there being a third pre-shaper rank, then she is probably a few years older than that! (Diwaniya would be older than my estimation as well)

 

The next two are very minor:

Also a graphical contradiction (still pales in comparison to the Alwan scene renders vs. his game sprite in G5 though, yeesh)

--In the opening teaser, the burning Academy is surrounded by palm trees. However, we know that the Ashen Isles archipelago is in a very northerly zone on the planet (like-- Canadian border to mid-Canada northwest, or at max, south to Seattle.), because the island chain is small, and every island north of Greenwood is described as being cold (do note that when you reach the Isle of Spears, we are told that it is late Autumn. Depending on which contradictory timeline you believe, it is either many weeks or many months since the rebellion began-- the "weeks" timeline would probably run from September to November, making your adventures on Dhonal and Gull Islands both in October.) While certainly this would make Dhonal and Gull cold, this is a small island chain, with Gull Island specifically described as being a taiga (boreal evergreen forest climate) Sure, you could plot-device that the palm trees in the opening are shaper-augmented trees, but what is the point of filling the peninsula with so many? As as an experimental project for the students? In that case, they would be in a garden or arboretum. So it makes no sense. Yeah, I know this is an incredibly minor thing.

 

--There's also a typo when Alwan leaves you at Khor's Deeps if you helped the rebels. Something along the lines of "I didn't know how, but I always thought you were true to your beliefs, but now I see that you are lost to our kind"

[Triumph]

Take *everything* Litalia says about her history with a grain of salt. She is A. trying to recruit you and probably willing to lie if it will help her do that, B. thoroughly high on canisters, especially by the endgame, so she's not always in touch with reality, and C. the way she tells her background story changes in each game in which she appears. I'm pretty sure someone once tried to compare the stories of her background she tells the PCs in G3, G4, and G5, and there are significant discrepancies (plus other discrepancies trying to reconcile some of what she says with the known canon events of G2). So, basically, she's a very unreliable witness when it comes to describing her background.

 

You could blame this on Jeff not keeping backstories straight, but it's also quite possible that he deliberately wrote her as either lying or just thoroughly confused (canisters!) about some of her own past.

[Hyena of Ice]

That doesn't make much sense, though. I've only played G1-3, but so far she doesn't seem at all delusional. Also, I would think that the canister usage would make a person smarter and have better memory. Well, the ones who aren't completely nutso, that is.

 

I would think however that the ranks of shaper student level would be basic enough knowledge that Litalia wouldn't easily forget it-- and even if she did, both the PC and Alwan would know what the rank levels are.

Litalia getting her facts wrong, however, changes little. I believe the narration when you meet Litalia for the first time states that she is not much older than you. Mooralas states that Litalia recruited Hoge 3 years ago, and she probably wasn't a new recruit to Ghaldarig at that time, either.

We're also told that the rebellion started underground several years earlier (by that, meaning that serviles were smuggling goods to the Isle of Spears for their base of operations) IIRC, we're also told that the Ashen isles rebellion was planned years in advance before that on Terrestria (technically it was planned at the tail end of G2)

It seems more likely to me that Litalia's contraditions were unintentional by Jeff, in the same vein as the progression of shaper training in G3 compared to 1 and 2, as well as inconsistent timelines for the rebellion given throughout G3 as soon as you reach Gull Island (the worst case being when Khyryk gives two contradictory timelines on when Agatha and the serviles started acting weird-- one dialogue tree has him stating that it was several years ago, while another has him stating that it began roughly a year ago, and there is no way that several years could have passed WHILE you were on Gull Island, or else the captured shapers would be long dead by the time you find them.)