Sholai schemes

[Snallac]

So apparently the scouring of Sucia did not dissuade at least some of the Sholai from trying to get their hands on Shaper secrets. They seem to be relying on a variety of different factors to shield them from retaliation - the Shaper's inexperience with sea travel, the (presumably) vast distance between their homeland and Terrestria, the fact that their navigation routes are secret and the navigators are enchanted to die before they give anything away, and quite possibly they are also taking into account the continuous turmoil created by the secrets taken from Sucia island, and the continued distraction provided by that turmoil. In any case, this behavior raises a few questions.

 

The first is in regard to the anti-Trajkov Sholai that help the player beat him in the loyalist ending of G1, which would seem to be the ending closest to being what actually happens. That loyalist ending goes on to say that their aid to the player in defeating Trajkov causes the Council to view them in a positive light, and paves the way for ongoing diplomacy between the Sholai and the Shapers. Now, that same ending says that the Shapers reward the Obeyers by integrating them into their society, and that doesn't happen, so this could just be another gap between the described ending and what actually ends up happening, and we see in G5 that diplomacy with the Sholai was eventually established but that the Council never revealed what went down on Sucia to them, but in the remakes this does raise the possibility that there is in fact an established diplomatic link between the Sholai and the Shapers in G2-I, that the Sholai present in the Drypeak mountains are from a different faction of Sholai, and that after you help them, when they say they're splitting up and one group is going to go do diplomacy with the Council, they're bullshitting you. So potentially, Sholai factionalism could continue to be an element going forward.

 

The second question is simply whether the Sholai are justified in their confidence that their homeland is beyond the reach of the Shapers. Certainly, we know from the original series that the Rebellion proper is about to get going and that the Shapers aren't going to have the time to worry about anything else, but if that weren't a factor and the Council was made aware that the Sholai were either still attempting to get their hands on Shaper secrets or already had, would they be able to retaliate? We never see any aquatic Creations in the games aside from the Drayk-boats, which also seem to be the only seacraft the Shapers employ, and the exact capabilities of said Drayk-boats isn't clear. We know from the War Trall, Kyshakk and Wingbolt that the Shapers can come up with new Creation designs within a few years if they put their minds to it, but it is still unclear to me how long it would take them to turn their Drayk-boats into something on par with the age of sail style ships the Sholai seem to have.

 

The third question is simply why the Sholai, or at least this particular group of Sholai, are so determined to get their hands on the secrets of Shaping when they're familiar with the wrath of the Shapers and can see active examples of the kinds of havoc Shaping can unleash? Yes, there's never an end to the stupid things people will do to attempt to gain more power or wealth, but this is a large group dependent on multiple skilled, intelligent individuals working together to make their scheme work, and none of these people have second thoughts? Again, it's not especially implausible, but it does paint the Sholai in a new light for me, and makes me wonder if it's just that Shaping is their catnip, or if they aren't as peaceful and diplomatic in their explorations as they say.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited May 2 by Snallac

[Displayed Name]

Yep, it always seems to me the "diplomatic" Sholai are sugarcoating their intentions even back in G1.

Like they are just afraid of open hostilities with Shapers without further info and the current inner political climates of Sholai themselves demand cooperation from the PC.

Infestation people are just a bunch of opportunists that are willing to push their luck once it is found out Shapers are worse than them in amphibious warfare, hence any retaliation will not affect Sholai mainland.

[Genernumlover]

The short answer would seem to be that the Sholai are greedy.

 

A more hopeful answer is that the Sholai are hoping to terraform their homeland to make it more inhabitable. Wasn't their homeland supposed to be a frozen realm?

 

Regardless, the Sholai are trying too hard. There is taking advantage of a situation, and there is trying to steal powers that have catastrophic consequences when they are misused. It sounds like the Sholai expedition either fails, or that they are going to cause a horrendous accident in their homeland. That could be a new leading element of the story for the Trakovite faction.

 

If they come back in the Geneforge 3 remake having mastered Shaping easily, that'd be poor writing on Vogel's part.

 

 

[alhoon]

40 minutes ago, Genernumlover said:

If they come back in the Geneforge 3 remake having mastered Shaping easily, that'd be poor writing on Vogel's part.

 

Sholai showing up to Lord Rhaul to beg for Shaper help to deal with catastrophic accidents they caused, would be my guess. And either joining the Rebels or the Shapers looking for help. 

[Genernumlover]

5 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

Sholai showing up to Lord Rhaul to beg for Shaper help to deal with catastrophic accidents they caused, would be my guess. And either joining the Rebels or the Shapers looking for help. 

 

That'd be a good twist on things. Shaping is supposed to be extremely dangerous. For a bunch of novices who think they can steal it and control it straight away, that'd be a recipe for a Shaping disaster. The Sholai coming for help with their disaster only to see that things are even worse in the Ashen Isles would cause them to rethink their actions. That could be the founding of the Trakovites.

 

 

 

[Men are from Slars]

My money still says the Sholai will be a tiny third faction in G3C, like the Trakovites were in G4.

[Randomizer]

Since they aren't really mentioned until GF5 as an ambassador, I could see them as waiting on the sidelines during the Rebellion. Watching both sides weaken each other and gathering more information on new creations. Waiting until the last game to wipe out the victor and takeover.

[Genernumlover]

1 hour ago, Aoslare said:

My money still says the Sholai will be a tiny third faction in G3C, like the Trakovites were in G4.

 

That would be nice. I hope that they function like the Shaper trio did in Geneforge Mutagen and fill in some missing information.

 

I was always puzzled by the motivations of the protagonist of Geneforge 3. The character apparently helped the Rebels, I the reasons for doing so were shaky. The Rebels killed the Shaper's fellow students and the teachers of the school. Further, they unleashed havoc across the islands, callously manipulating the populace in several cases. Plus the Shaper saw that prolonged canister use can make an individual go insane or fall apart like Hoge.

 

With all of that in mind, what was the reason for that Shaper to join the Rebels? Justice? He or she saw as much cruelty and injustice from the Rebels as from the Shapers. It seems like that the hero of Geneforge 3 has very little reason to leave the Shapers for the Rebels.

 

A Sholai ending could answer the above. It could be a "keep the war going until we can get rid of Shaping" ending like the Trakovite ending of Geneforge 4. That would fit the motivations of a protagonist who saw firsthand the horrors of Shaping used in warfare. It would also explain why both Alwan and Greta are reluctant to speak of that Shaper.

[Men are from Slars]

I hope they are nothing like the Shaper trio, which just destroys all continuity and sense of immersion.

[Genernumlover]

I meant more in the idea that they bring about a different ending. The Shaper trio had some big problems, but the "kill all the leaders and leave" quest was what the lore indicates the hero did.

[ultra112]

I mean you think they would have learn their lesson after what Trajkov has done, these guys could have just head to the capital directly and apologize to the council regarding what happened on Sucia and arrange a meeting with their government officials for any reparations and establishing a diplomatic relationship, but no they wanted to try the same thing that Trajkov did; only a bit more sneakier

[Men are from Slars]

6 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

I meant more in the idea that they bring about a different ending. The Shaper trio had some big problems, but the "kill all the leaders and leave" quest was what the lore indicates the hero did.

It doesn't, though.  Ellhrah canonically makes it to Drypeak.  And Rydell appears to have as well, given that he has a grave marker in Ellhrah's tomb.  Gnorrel, meanwhile, was "killed when you Shapers came," and these shapers who killed her "take Kazg. Gnorrel. Food. Everything" -- which sounds more like a dedicated cleansing team and less like the PC.

[alhoon]

11 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

With all of that in mind, what was the reason for that Shaper to join the Rebels? Justice? He or she saw as much cruelty and injustice from the Rebels as from the Shapers. It seems like that the hero of Geneforge 3 has very little reason to leave the Shapers for the Rebels.

 

 

This Rebel tells you: Only if you play "powerhungry that should never have been a Shaper anyway". Most of the time, the Rebels promise you power. Not freedom for the Serviles. The Rebels are MUCH closer to the Takers than the Awakened for 80% of the game. 
The way the Rebels are portrayed in the GF3, it is puzzling that Greta joins the Rebellion. It was also her friends that got slaughtered and she is O_O on the spawned Litalia leaves in the first island for the laughs and giggles. 

 

  

11 hours ago, Aoslare said:

I hope they are nothing like the Shaper trio, which just destroys all continuity and sense of immersion.

 

I 85% agree. They don't just destroy all sense of immersion or continuity, but they do destroy ... much of it. I really would have preferred Mutagen without them. 

 

5 hours ago, ultra112 said:

I mean you think they would have learn their lesson after what Trajkov has done, these guys could have just head to the capital directly and apologize to the council regarding what happened on Sucia and arrange a meeting with their government officials for any reparations and establishing a diplomatic relationship, but no they wanted to try the same thing that Trajkov did; only a bit more sneakier

 

Up until I met that Servile that made it back to the Sholai and then returned to Drypeak, I thought that with the Sholai Ships destroyed, the Sholai were trapped in the island. I don't know how they got some of them back to the mainland with the Servile. I am early in the Sholai thing and they are hiding their purpose and ambitions so I can't be sure BUT I think the Sholai that returned home from Sucia went back early; before the Sholai got too much in with the Takers. 

So, they have not seen the full effect of the Cannisters... till they met the Barzhites. 

So, the ones in Drypeak are aware of the power and the danger but I don't think the Sholai leaders back in their continent know much. 

 

 

 

Edited May 3 by alhoon

[Genernumlover]

16 hours ago, Aoslare said:

It doesn't, though.  Ellhrah canonically makes it to Drypeak.  And Rydell appears to have as well, given that he has a grave marker in Ellhrah's tomb.  Gnorrel, meanwhile, was "killed when you Shapers came," and these shapers who killed her "take Kazg. Gnorrel. Food. Everything" -- which sounds more like a dedicated cleansing team and less like the PC.

 

True, I had forgotten that two servile leaders made it off of Sucia alive. That means that the hero just left after killing Trajkov. That Shaper took out the main threat and left the Shapers to decide the fate of the serviles.

 

So, Vogel added characters and writing that broke the lore of the game for no reason. The Geneforge sample quest from the Sholai merchant was enough to add to the groundwork for the second game. There were easier ways to get another ending. Just about anybody loyal to the Shapers could've offered the "destroy all the leaders" quest if they had landed on the island. And the fact that the Shaper trio won't help the protagonist with training and that they just bunkered down when the world was at stake was ridiculous.

 

12 hours ago, alhoon said:

 

This Rebel tells you: Only if you play "powerhungry that should never have been a Shaper anyway". Most of the time, the Rebels promise you power. Not freedom for the Serviles. The Rebels are MUCH closer to the Takers than the Awakened for 80% of the game. 
The way the Rebels are portrayed in the GF3, it is puzzling that Greta joins the Rebellion. It was also her friends that got slaughtered and she is O_O on the spawned Litalia leaves in the first island for the laughs and giggles. 

 

That would make the character a mirror image of Litalia. After all, she started out believing that she was going to be fighting for a just cause, the 20%, and turned into a merciless canister addict later on. It sounds like Litalia wanted to turn a Shaper as Ghaldring turned her to the Rebels, and she succeeded. Fingers crossed that there is a better ending added to the game for the remake.

 

Greta always blamed the protagonist or the Shapers at large for what the Rebels did. If you take her to that spawner, she turns and the dialogue says she almost blames you for it. She essentially blames you, as a representative of the Shapers, instead of the Rebels who made it. She kept that attitude of "The Shapers are at fault for what the Rebels are doing" through the game. With her deciding that the Shapers are corrupt, which is true, and putting the responsibility for Rebel actions on the Shapers, joining the Rebels who are supposedly fighting for a new system would be a natural choice for her.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3 by Genernumlover

[oceanes]

Keep in mind, too, that Greta is not really a Shaper, or at least, she doesn't see herself that way. She's a washed-out trainee Agent that was canned for complaining about the way the instructors treated creations. I think she was only there for a year or two, and the only reason she's in South End still is either lack of funds, or that she can't figure out how to break the news to her family. Basically, she's a more ideological Shaper version of Ahsoka Tano, or similar. She has a valid psychological reason for wanting to paint the Shapers in a bad light, for derailing her life for taking a moral stance, at least from her perspective. From the Shapers' perspective, I would guess that pro-creation views are tolerated least among the Agents, as their role in the Shaper Empire likely involves less direct oversight than the other branches, and because, in any state, ideological subversion of your intelligence arm is existentially bad.

[ultra112]

3 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

 

True, I had forgotten that two servile leaders made it off of Sucia alive. That means that the hero just left after killing Trajkov. That Shaper took out the main threat and left the Shapers to decide the fate of the serviles.

 

So, Vogel added characters and writing that broke the lore of the game for no reason. The Geneforge sample quest from the Sholai merchant was enough to add to the groundwork for the second game. There were easier ways to get another ending. Just about anybody loyal to the Shapers could've offered the "destroy all the leaders" quest if they had landed on the island. And the fact that the Shaper trio won't help the protagonist with training and that they just bunkered down when the world was at stake was ridiculous.

 

 

That would make the character a mirror image of Litalia. After all, she started out believing that she was going to be fighting for a just cause, the 20%, and turned into a merciless canister addict later on. It sounds like Litalia wanted to turn a Shaper as Ghaldring turned her to the Rebels, and she succeeded. Fingers crossed that there is a better ending added to the game for the remake.

 

Greta always blamed the protagonist or the Shapers at large for what the Rebels did. If you take her to that spawner, she turns and the dialogue says she almost blames you for it. She essentially blames you, as a representative of the Shapers, instead of the Rebels who made it. She kept that attitude of "The Shapers are at fault for what the Rebels are doing" through the game. With her deciding that the Shapers are corrupt, which is true, and putting the responsibility for Rebel actions on the Shapers, joining the Rebels who are supposedly fighting for a new system would be a natural choice for her.

 

 

 

 

I mean it does piss me off at times is that she would blame Shapers for things that even they didn't do and even she was a washed up trainee she should have already know that Shaper is all about control and restraints, not going absolutely insane and do whatever the hell they want with shaping.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, ultra112 said:

I mean it does piss me off at times is that she would blame Shapers for things that even they didn't do and even she was a washed up trainee she should have already know that Shaper is all about control and restraints, not going absolutely insane and do whatever the hell they want with shaping.

And yet, she is quite reserved in GF4 and GF5 with canisters. She does feed people to the Geneforge to spam Lifecrafters for the military but they are pressed for power. She doesn't seem powerhungry. 

From what I recall from GF3... Nope, I don't remember much. I remember that I actually wanted more interaction from the NPCs than I got but that's a complain I have with many RPGs. 

[oceanes]

15 minutes ago, alhoon said:

And yet, she is quite reserved in GF4 and GF5 with canisters. She does feed people to the Geneforge to spam Lifecrafters for the military but they are pressed for power. She doesn't seem powerhungry. 

From what I recall from GF3... Nope, I don't remember much. I remember that I actually wanted more interaction from the NPCs than I got but that's a complain I have with many RPGs. 

Broadly, she's an idealist in GF3, albeit one that is attracted by the powers of the Shapers, but mainly for their ability to solve problems. She encourages you to use the first canister you find, but to be fair, neither of you know what they do at that point. Both she and Alwan talk things over with you periodically, and ask for advice. I think you are their senior. Notably, Greta may have been the one to invent the term "lifecrafter", given one of her last major dialogues in GF3. She says that you are not really a Shaper anymore, and that they need to think of a different name. She's reckless, and more individualistic than you would expect for someone raised in Shaper society, and she immediately resonates with the plight of both Lankan's rebels and the rebel creations on the Isle of Spears, though she does keep questioning her path right up until the end of GF3, only fully committing after her last talk with you. 

[alhoon]

I remember she resonates with the plight of Lankan and the rebel creations. But the plight of Lankan is mostly because Litalia spams monsters to kill Lankan's friends. And Litalia's solution to the issue is not to stop the army of monsters from eating Lankan's friends, but Taker-change Lankan and his friends to be able to fight off the monsters. The "We will continue making monsters to eat you. However, we will make you powerful enough to not ne eaten." ?!?!?!?!?!?

[oceanes]

10 hours ago, alhoon said:

I remember she resonates with the plight of Lankan and the rebel creations. But the plight of Lankan is mostly because Litalia spams monsters to kill Lankan's friends. And Litalia's solution to the issue is not to stop the army of monsters from eating Lankan's friends, but Taker-change Lankan and his friends to be able to fight off the monsters. The "We will continue making monsters to eat you. However, we will make you powerful enough to not ne eaten." ?!?!?!?!?!?

Yeah. Ghaldring just fundamentally doesn't care what happens to humans, and Litalia is too obsessed with him to argue. The more I think about it, the more Litalia reminds me of Belatrix Lestrange. When you ask her about meeting Ghaldring, it's clear that she found him while psychologically compromised in some way, even suicidal, and imprinted on him afterwards. Come to think of it, being a Trakovite later might have more to do with attempting to rid herself of his influence on her after being cast aside than any real conviction. It just gives her an ideology to obsess over rather than a person, and as she is in control, no one can betray her that way again.

Edited May 4 by oceanes

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Yeah. Ghaldring just fundamentally doesn't care what happens to humans, and Litalia is too obsessed with him to argue. The more I think about it, the more Litalia reminds me of Belatrix Lestrange. When you ask her about meeting Ghaldring, it's clear that she found him while psychologically compromised in some way, even suicidal, and imprinted on him afterwards. Come to think of it, being a Trakovite later might have more to do with attempting to rid herself of his influence on her after being cast aside than any real conviction. It just gives her an ideology to obsess over rather than a person, and as she is in control, no one can betray her that way again.

 

Litalia is mad. As the protagonist of GF5 thinks when Litalia talks about her history, Litalia latches on a goal and then goes full genocidal maniac over it. Ghaldring prohibits the Drakons from getting rid of one that powerful and dangerous that turned her back on them. Litalia? Litalia cries when she has the PC kill Ghaldring, saying she is now free. 

 

And to turn back to the subject: 

I can't wait to see how Litalia thinks of the Sholai traders in GF3. Will she go "Buuuuuuurn theeeeeem!!!" ? Will she go "MWAHAHA! Let's use them!" ? 

The Sholai, being a mix of naive and greedy and powerhungry will probably fall for the Taker promises again. 

Whatever Litalia does in GF3, even if she kills Sholai left and right, I expect to find Sholai in her hold in GF4. She is pragmatist/mad like that. 

[Men are from Slars]

honestly "Buuuuuuurn theeeeeem!!!" is more tone and personality than any of Litalia's existing lines in OG3 have

[alhoon]

10 minutes ago, Aoslare said:

honestly "Buuuuuuurn theeeeeem!!!" is more tone and personality than any of Litalia's existing lines in OG3 have

I don't think so. The scene where you get out of your burning school, having left the corpses of your classmates behind to find the mass murderer looking at you without being able to smile, judging you and all, was a very powerful scene. 

I had played GF4 and GF5 first and never figured why the games made such a mention to Litalia's efforts to learn to smile again. 

The staff he says in the first island in the spawner's cave - including her disregard for the poor maddened creation she had left behind to create living things - also resonated with me, again after playing GF4 and GF5 and being a lifecrafter learning to appreciate my Creations. 
Ghaldring in GF5 when you attack the Shapers with him, apologizes to the Drayks he Shapes and sends to their death. Think of that. Ghaldring is a Lifecrafter. A butthole Lifecrafter, a tyrannical one, a mad genocidal one. Perhaps even a hypocritical one.  But a Lifecrafter. Litalia in GF3 is ... a bwahahahaaa madwoman. She doesn't seem to pay any attention or care to the creations that she spams. Some of her creations (the two mad spawner-things, the big half-humanoid ones) are suffering. To the point you can convince them to die to end their suffering. That is ... not a Lifecrafter. That is a rebellious, powerhungry, radical Shaper. 

 

And come on, you can't say that "No, I won't stop sending monsters to kill you. What I am willing to do is make you a monster too so that you can kill the monsters I send to kill you." has no character, tone and personality. That is ... a special case of madness. 

 

Litalia makes a great villain in GF3. It is a pity that she is the main Rebel you see in the game as you decide which side to join... the Rebels are not like Litalia. 

 

Edited May 4 by alhoon

[oceanes]

You know, speaking of the Sholai, I just finished a GF1M Taker playthrough, and it surprised me how dark Trajikov's new order is. The ending texts states that much of the Shaper knowledgebase was lost in the war, Trajikov while barely sane, isn't really up to ruling, and seems to rely on you and the Takers. The Takers, for their part, seem more interested in revenge than being better than the Shapers in a general way. The last line of your personal ending mentions you looking out "over the ruins", while having attained great personal wealth and power, as if no one has really bothered to rebuild Terrestia's infrastructure. A Taker PC seems basically to end up like Alaric the Visigoth, warlord king over an empire he broke in the conquering. The serviles get their freedom, but it's overall a much worse outcome than say, Sucia after a Ghaldring victory in GF5. I had a much rosier recollection of the ending before playing it again, and it leaves me with many doubts about the Sholai's ability to be better than the Shapers should they somehow attain power.

Edited May 5 by oceanes

[alhoon]

19 minutes ago, oceanes said:

Trajikov while barely sane

Able to hold a conversation doesn't make him sane. He is as mad as Barzhal, from what I recall. 

 

19 minutes ago, oceanes said:

isn't really up to ruling, and seems to rely on you and the Takers.

Perhaps we interpret things wrong, but I THINK that the Sholai/trajkov were more interested in conquest than rulership. 

 

19 minutes ago, oceanes said:

A Taker PC seems basically to end up like Alaric the Visigoth, warlord king over an empire he broke in the conquering.

Ah, very good analogy. 

 

19 minutes ago, oceanes said:

I had a much rosier recollection of the ending before playing it again, and it leaves me with many doubts about the Sholai's ability to be better than the Shapers should they somehow attain power.

Honestly, the current Sholai scavengers and "culture lovers / linguists" strike me as worse than Trakjov. As you said, he was able to hold a conversation. He had some kind of discipline, even if not what a Shaper learns. 

Those Sholai in GF2 are like teaching kids to make ... bioweapons while on mind-altering drugs. In fact, it is exactly like that.  

 

Even if some of them really buy that poop they sell you about "cultural artifacts" and "just as curiosities" there are going to be powerhungry opportunists that will tip their toe and bite the forbidden fruit. 

Edited May 5 by alhoon

[oceanes]

18 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Honestly, the current Sholai scavengers and "culture lovers / linguists" strike me as worse than Trakjov. As you said, he was able to hold a concentration. He had some kind of discipline, even if not what a Shaper learns. 

Those Sholai in GF2 are like teaching kids to make ... bioweapons while on mind-altering drugs. In fact, it is exactly like that.  

Yeah, I've noticed in G2I that when referring to the previous expedition, the Sholai always mention not offending the Shapers for fear of starting a fight they can't win, not because they agree with the Shapers conservatism as regards research and experimentation. Hence why they bargain with Barzahl, I suppose.

 

As regards Trajikov, the ending explains that while he's sane in the sense of not being homicidally mad, and still vaguely "holding on to his humanity, barely" which is more than any other Geneforge subject can say, he's not lucid enough to really run the government, nor trained for it. Hence, you and the Takers.

Edited May 5 by oceanes

[alhoon]

It was not not lost to me that the Sholai in GF2 made the deal with the Barzhites mind you. The Barzhites. The powermad guys that elevate randoms. 

 

 

"more than any other Geneforge subject can say" 

HEY! Stop insulting my GF4 and GF5 characters! 😛

[Men are from Slars]

50 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I had played GF4 and GF5 first and never figured why the games made such a mention to Litalia's efforts to learn to smile again. 

[Men are from Slars]

35 minutes ago, oceanes said:

A Taker PC seems basically to end up like...

 

Obligatory comment that this is not a Taker ending.  You can get this ending being aligned with any of the sects, or none of them.

[alhoon]

5 minutes ago, Aoslare said:

That meme is lot to me... I don't get it. 

Do you agree or disagree that Litalia's lack of smile is memorable? 

 

Also, out of interest, what do you think on the GF2 Sholai or them cutting a deal with the Barzhites of all people? 
PS. I have not finished GF2 nor I have met the captain they talk about. But I am interest about your opinion on the things they say and what do you think they would end up doing with what I give them.

[oceanes]

47 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Also, out of interest, what do you think on the GF2 Sholai or them cutting a deal with the Barzhites of all people? 
PS. I have not finished GF2 nor I have met the captain they talk about. But I am interest about your opinion on the things they say and what do you think they would end up doing with what I give them.

I find it interesting that, when you talk to them and ask that question, they admit that they do not know, except to attempt to learn some form of Shaping, so as not to be on the bad end of a power imbalance. I think one of them also implies that the decision on what to do with the essence once they have it will be up to the homeland leadership, not them. The Sholai as a culture seem to have been made aware that they are playing catch-up to the Shapers, and are trying to find ways to get on an even footing as quickly as possible. Combining this with their geas magic, and what seems to be a longstanding policy of keeping their homeland secret, seems to indicate a reactive, defensive mindset that simultaneously seeks to avoid wars through trade while also never presenting a vulnerability for foreigners to exploit. Of course, they could be soft-selling themselves by claiming to want diplomacy and trade, but none of the unaugmented Sholai we meet act like people from an expansionist empire. They are oddly skittish, though. They fear things, but rather than fighting or hiding, seek to know everything about everything in order to outwit or work around it. It really makes me want to know the set of conditions and diplomatic neighborhood that created this mindset. Who are the Sholai used to dealing with, that this is their approach?

[oceanes]

1 hour ago, Aoslare said:

 

Obligatory comment that this is not a Taker ending.  You can get this ending being aligned with any of the sects, or none of them.

This is true, mechanically. It is, however, the path the Takers want you to take, and the one where their goals are met.

[ultra112]

3 hours ago, oceanes said:

You know, speaking of the Sholai, I just finished a GF1M Taker playthrough, and it surprised me how dark Trajikov's new order is. The ending texts states that much of the Shaper knowledgebase was lost in the war, Trajikov while barely sane, isn't really up to ruling, and seems to rely on you and the Takers. The Takers, for their part, seem more interested in revenge than being better than the Shapers in a general way. The last line of your personal ending mentions you looking out "over the ruins", while having attained great personal wealth and power, as if no one has really bothered to rebuild Terrestia's infrastructure. A Taker PC seems basically to end up like Alaric the Visigoth, warlord king over an empire he broke in the conquering. The serviles get their freedom, but it's overall a much worse outcome than say, Sucia after a Ghaldring victory in GF5. I had a much rosier recollection of the ending before playing it again, and it leaves me with many doubts about the Sholai's ability to be better than the Shapers should they somehow attain power.

Also after you completed the servile origin quest, the servile that gave you the quest literally said that he wanted warp humanity into something else; like how the serviles were. Which is a rather dangerous thing to see tbh

[Genernumlover]

2 hours ago, oceanes said:

I find it interesting that, when you talk to them and ask that question, they admit that they do not know, except to attempt to learn some form of Shaping, so as not to be on the bad end of a power imbalance. I think one of them also implies that the decision on what to do with the essence once they have it will be up to the homeland leadership, not them. The Sholai as a culture seem to have been made aware that they are playing catch-up to the Shapers, and are trying to find ways to get on an even footing as quickly as possible. Combining this with their geas magic, and what seems to be a longstanding policy of keeping their homeland secret, seems to indicate a reactive, defensive mindset that simultaneously seeks to avoid wars through trade while also never presenting a vulnerability for foreigners to exploit. Of course, they could be soft-selling themselves by claiming to want diplomacy and trade, but none of the unaugmented Sholai we meet act like people from an expansionist empire. They are oddly skittish, though. They fear things, but rather than fighting or hiding, seek to know everything about everything in order to outwit or work around it. It really makes me want to know the set of conditions and diplomatic neighborhood that created this mindset. Who are the Sholai used to dealing with, that this is their approach?

 

The Sholai seem to be taking a cloak and dagger approach to things while approaching with a seemingly open hand. That means that they are used to being outsiders, possibly from visiting other lands, and their mindset is likely built on a survivalist mindset from living in their frozen homeland. To Sholai culture as a whole, the survival of the Sholai people likely comes before everything else. Being a seemingly benevolent nation of merchant explorers  with a nearly unassailable homeland is a good way to survive. That way, trade becomes a way to examine other nation's goods and weapons, while exchanging knowledge and spying is a way to get new magic and skills while revealing little of the Sholai themselves. You might think of the Sholai as a more secretive and weaker version of Haven. Except, instead of expanding the empire or reclaiming lost territory, it is the continued survival and growth of their homeland that is the key to the Sholai's motivations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Men are from Slars]

Alternate possibility: the Sholai are, in fact, relatively benevolent, as they present themselves.

 

You meet Trajkov after he'd used piles of canisters, and at that point he was not clearly not representative of the Sholai culture in general.  (And even at that point, he doesn't seem particularly terrible for this game world.  He's shown be to quite loyal and open-minded in the ending, despite being power-hungry.)  The non-canister Sholai you meet  in OG are rather different, both in G1 and then late in the series when they show up again in G5.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Aoslare said:

Alternate possibility: the Sholai are, in fact, relatively benevolent, as they present themselves.

 

You meet Trajkov after he'd used piles of canisters, and at that point he was not clearly not representative of the Sholai culture in general.  (And even at that point, he doesn't seem particularly terrible for this game world.  He's shown be to quite loyal and open-minded in the ending, despite being power-hungry.)  The non-canister Sholai you meet  in OG are rather different, both in G1 and then late in the series when they show up again in G5.

 

We probably met different Sholai in GF1-M, because the ones I met were mostly hostile. There are parts where they attack you even if you are a Taker. Also, The Sholai that kill my poor Drayk-ship were not trying to ask for directions, they were openly, automatically hostile. If it was not for my loyal Drayk-boat I would be fish food. 

If it wasn't for the Sholai, I would more easily join the Takers. Trakjov not being as bad as Barzhal or Ghaldring doesn't make him good. 

The "Non-Canister Sholai" we meet in GF2-I are powerhungry but smarter about it, so far. I am always suspicious of those that say "Let's get a Cannister or two back home. And some Shaper tools. And a Servile." 
I am double-suspicious when they have secret bases. 
I am triple-suspicious when they cut deals with Barzhites. Barzhal would probably try to involve them in his war later on.

 

The GF5 Sholai... The Sholai are getting retconned in the games. I am not sure comparisons to GF5 Sholai, that one person you meet, are now representative of what goes into the mind of the developer. 

 

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaall those said: 
Considering where I am lying now, angry with the Shapers and about to kill Sharon for tricking me and making a ring with the suffering of creations, and not-quite adverse to Canisters... 
I wish Trajkov was around in GF2. We have similar goals: Burn down the Shaper Empire although not complete genocide. The main problem with that part is that you go mad. I mean, me, as a person, have not used cannisters. But now that I can, I have to resist the urge to start killing Shapers and Barzhites left and right. And I do believe that with moderation, Shaping is extremely useful. I am "Creation rights / Barriers in Shaping" camp, thus the Awakened. I just disagree with their naive views, idealistic approach to a war with a huge empire that will want to kill them down to the last child  and their lack of ambition. 
Trakjov was for more reckless power-lust but he seemed, and his Sholai seemed, the type to make cannisters for Powweeeeerrrrzzzz!!! Not the type to make 'Shapers' that would make plants and "woops, that didn't work, how we contain the invasive species???' type. The Barzhites have that kind. 

 

 

[Men are from Slars]

3 hours ago, Aoslare said:

The non-canister Sholai you meet  in OG are rather different, both in G1 and then late in the series when they show up again in G5.

 

1 hour ago, alhoon said:

We probably met different Sholai in GF1-M, because the ones I met were mostly hostile.

 

All the Sholai who attack you in G1, including the ones who shoot down your craft, are either heavily canistered, or obeying orders from those who are.  You can't take the aggressive behavior of a canistered-up person as representative of their culture.

 

Masha and company are the main non-canister Sholai in G1, and they are openly suspicious of canisters and do not suggest anyone consume any of them.  (Yu-La is off doing her own thing.)

[alhoon]

Is Masha the one in the pretty cave? I liked the Sholai there. Anyway, those that obey orders from the canister'ed up Sholai and the canistered Sholai show that a lot of Sholai (like a lot of people) are not adverse to using Canisters. That the GF2 Sholai that have learned from the Servile with them (the Inutile) about Sucia and all, and they still want to steal the secrets of the Shapers are, at least in my opinion in the "dangerous people that want to play with such powers" camp.  

 

I actually agree that the GF2 Sholai are not going all out to attack Shapers and kidnap them and all. And indeed, we meet just the Sholai that want to steal those secrets. I mean, which 'linguist enthusiast' would go aaaaaall the way to Drypeak instead of meeting with Shapers and Common in much more profitable areas? 

But as far as the Sholai we meet and the ones I expect to meet, no, they are dangerous. 

 

Now from what we can tell about their homeland: 

- They take great pains to hide its location.

- They fund expeditions to other people's places looking for cultural artifacts. 

- They are paranoid and put dangerous magic on their navigators so that they couldn't betray the secrets of navigation. 

Those are not nice traits of a benevolent explorer/trader empire. The Sholai, all the Sholai, are secretive and paranoid. 

 

We have no actual indication to say that Sholai are benign. We have some indications (although no proof) to show they are ambitious and that they covet other people's arts and cultural stuff. Could they offer to less powerful and less fortunate states a fair trade? Perhaps. 
But how often have you seen that being the case in history? Isn't it much more probable that if the Sholai find much weaker people, they either give them bad bargains or take their things like the British, Spanish or French did? 

And I am not saying everyone in Britain, Spain or France in the 16th century was supportive of oppression. But the Conquistadors, while not representing the average Iberian person, were not as benign as the Crown or the people thought they were. 

 

And aside of historical comparisons of "rich, curious people go out to explore the world" we have the "Sholai put dangerous spells on their navigators because they are paranoid." and we do see Sholai coveting dangerous knowledge and showing great ambition in both games. Again, this may not represent the Sholai grocer in a nice coastal town of 4000 people in their continent. But the ones we meet or we would realistically meet? Yes, they are dangerous in my opinion. 

And they trade with the Barzhites. 

[Men are from Slars]

No, it shows that the leader of the entire expedition was willing to try them when they didn't know what they did.  And we know they are addictive.  End of story on what that shows.

 

1 hour ago, alhoon said:

I mean, which 'linguist enthusiast' would go aaaaaall the way to Drypeak instead of meeting with Shapers and Common in much more profitable areas?

Someone who met friendly folks like Zakary or Ellhrah on Sucia, or worked with someone (Yu-La) who did, and thought they'd have a better chance of a friendly reception in the place they all went.

 

1 hour ago, alhoon said:

Those are not nice traits of a benevolent explorer/trader empire. The Sholai, all the Sholai, are secretive and paranoid.

Or it's just historical, isolationist Japan, given access to a bit of magic.  Civilizations that are in a guarded, self-protective mode are not generally the ones that are expanding, building empires and subjugating other people.

 

1 hour ago, alhoon said:

We have no actual indication to say that Sholai are benign. We have some indications (although no proof) to show they are ambitious and that they covet other people's arts and cultural stuff.

This is an utterly imbalanced evaluation that does not follow from the games.  You're declaring the Sholai that act benevolently count as "no actual indication" but the Sholai who are into trading and learning (you call it "coveting", I call it Star Trek) count as "some indications."  That's not even-handed, I'm sorry.  Reality is, we have no clear indication either way.  We have seen evidence of individual Sholai going both ways.  Just like we have seen from every other sentient culture in the game series.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Aoslare said:

Or it's just historical, isolationist Japan, given access to a bit of magic.

Isolationist Japan wasn't sending out expeditions to learn the language and find the art of other people. It is not historical. 

Furthermore, I didn't say the Sholai were trying to Subjugate Terrestia. I am saying we don't know what they would do to weaker folk but history doesn't point out to 'isolationist Japan" but empires that tried to influence, control or even  subjugate weaker people. 

 

1 hour ago, Aoslare said:

We have seen evidence of individual Sholai going both ways.  Just like we have seen from every other sentient culture in the game series.

We have seen evidence of 9/10 Sholai going one way and 1/10 Sholai going the other way. Also, we have seen Sholai knowing that the cannisters are addictive, having seen the horrors in Sucia, having survivors of that among them and still covet the Shaper arts. 

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on that. At least for me there are enough indications to make the Sholai suspect. Perhaps I am unfair to them, but I don't think so. I guess we will see in future games. 

 

Just to be clear, I don't plan to purge the Sholai when I torch the Banites.  I will give them the benefit of the doubt. 

 

 

Edited May 5 by alhoon

[Genernumlover]

9 hours ago, Aoslare said:

Alternate possibility: the Sholai are, in fact, relatively benevolent, as they present themselves.

 

You meet Trajkov after he'd used piles of canisters, and at that point he was not clearly not representative of the Sholai culture in general.  (And even at that point, he doesn't seem particularly terrible for this game world.  He's shown be to quite loyal and open-minded in the ending, despite being power-hungry.)  The non-canister Sholai you meet  in OG are rather different, both in G1 and then late in the series when they show up again in G5.

 

I don't blame the Sholai as a whole for what Trajkov's expedition did. Especially not when some of them tried to help you stop him. It is particularly from the remake of Geneforge 2 that I got the strong impression that the Sholai are opportunistic survivalists instead of benevolent explorers.

 

The remake of Geneforge 2 shows that the Sholai are willing to play nice while trying to steal someone else's knowledge or technology. That's a way to use another faction to get what you want, not to make a foreign power your trading partner. If that is a normal tactic for the Sholai, that means they are an opportunistic but sometimes helpful neutral party that is more concerned with their own continued existence and prosperity before anything else.

 

 

Edited May 5 by Genernumlover

[Men are from Slars]

No, it shows that the Sholai were nice while trying to obtain someone else's knowledge.  We don't know whether the niceness was just an act (though I think we can reasonably say that some individual Sholai, like Yu-La, probably would not be capable of acting).  And they weren't trying to take the knowledge away from the Shapers.  This is a relevant distinction given that every single non-Sholai sect in the area (even the Awakened!) asks you to steal and sabotage the research of at least one other sect.

[Genernumlover]

Every non-Sholai sect in Drypeak lives there and is fighting against the other powers that live in that area. It is essentially a local cold war turning hot. The Sholai aren't fighting like that, and they are going to leave. The Sholai are also trying to take and copy Shaper knowledge and return it to their homeland. They know that the knowledge is dangerous and controlled tightly by the Shapers, and that essence can be used to create creatures for battle. They also know that the Shapers would certainly consider it theft and destroy their expedition. The Sholai are trying to take advantage of the conflict in the Drypeak Mountains to take away what they want.

 

If this was a discussion of nations in the real world, virtually any nation would consider it theft if an unallied foreign power was taking their knowledge and technology without their consent. That is especially true if it is knowledge and technology that has a global impact, like Shaping has in Geneforge.

 

I'm not saying the Sholai are evil, but they are an opportunistic neutral faction that is willing to steal when it benefits them.

[alhoon]

To progress the Sholai story with the business opportunities, do I really have to give Phariton the crystal? 

I have ... forgot some things about Phariton. I want to kill him on sight now, not give him his crystal, take his money and then kill him. 

[Randomizer]

There are others who will buy the Crystal Cone. The Sholai don't care.

[alhoon]

17 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

There are others who will buy the Crystal Cone. The Sholai don't care.

So, I can sell the Crystal to the Awakened for 1000 coins and still progress the Sholai scheme? 

[Randomizer]

Yes

[alhoon]

Found the bunker of the Sholai before telling them that ... Phariton won't be placing any more orders in the near future. The Sholai boss, Zosima, tells me more or less "The other Sholai you found were greedy and careless! We want negotiations and peace" while standing in a colony in the midst of nowhere, aligned with the greediest and most careless faction that actually plans to wage war with the Shapers, looking for crystals in dangerous mines and secrets of magic beyond what they have. 😂

Really, Zosima? Really? Just because the council has so far believed Lying Zackary the Deceiver's lies doesn't mean EVERY shaper is a naive idiot. (Just the council). 

 

And when trying to explain the unexplainable of 'and why are you in the end of nowhere to open relationships??" under pressure from my Shaper, he digs deeper: "This isolated land was friendly" 🤣  so that is why you have a ton of high level guards and hide sooo deep? Because you feel the warm net of safety and friendliness, squished between the Barzhites, the Takers and the Awakened, you have no issues with the rogues of the Takers and Barzhites? Or the fact that the Awakened and the Servants do not like people stealing Shaper secrets?? 

Oh, I really wish Shanti have reached the Sholai before getting killed. I would love to see her insight as she was a Shaper with her head straight and neither mad nor idiot. Perhaps leaving something of a warning with Sharon. I guess, I will have to wait for GF3 Khyrik's reaction to the Sholai. 

 

And again the "We met and made friends with many lands!" speech. I know Ex post Slarto considers this might actually be the truth, but when an expedition is mostly warriors with a few intellectuals, I still think it is a bunch of lies to cover their "Explore and Loot!" mentality. They may not even realize it, but what are the chances they would not take everything that's not nailed to the ground if they can overcome the resistance? They strike me as anything but pacifistic  explorers interested in anthropology and culture. For starters you don't make a continent-spanning Empire with warm feelings and happy smiles. Especially when Pitr the Navigator says "All secrets must one day be known to the Sholai". 

 

Agrafena the Tinker that has you to help her as she talks to you passing saw, bolts and stuff is my favorite Sholai so far. Yes, the one that is probably making a cannister... 

 

 

EDIT: "Time in your mine will help us take samples and learn about your skills." You note how vague this sounds. Zosima notes that you note it. " 😂

Well, so far, I don't see reason enough to murder the Sholai despite their ties to Barzhites and, at least according to how I interpret the discussions, sharing much of their philosophy of sharing the powers of Shaping with Common. They are more disciplined than the Barzhites. I am pretty sure they will make a few eco-disasters (not 'small' things like ruining a valley, things that will take them centuries to clear up) while catching up but they have seen (and will see) how oppressing the Serviles eventually turns out. 

 

 

EDIT2:

Out of the mouths of babes and madmen:

 

 

Here it is. The Sholai are close to Barzhite ideology and Barzhal wants to further corrupt them. I hope, for their sake, they are not completely in bed with Barzhal so far and that they have different take on the Creations, else things will not end up well for the Sholai... 

 

Edited May 21 by alhoon

[ultra112]

which makes this entire [censored] show of theirs even worse, they have the galls to call out the previous expedition as greedy scumbags; but from my interaction with these people they are no different than Trajkov, only much more sneakier in their approach

[alhoon]

51 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

which makes this entire [censored] show of theirs even worse, they have the galls to call out the previous expedition as greedy scumbags; but from my interaction with these people they are no different than Trajkov, only much more sneakier in their approach

 

They are not much sneakier, they just don't kidnap Shapers. After they found out that doing that leads to their demise. 

Edited May 21 by alhoon