Plausibility of wandering Shapers

[Snallac]

The remakes have so far been quite impressive in their additions to the content & lore of the original games, introducing the inutile, expanding on the Sholai and Infernals and so on, but one new element that really bothers me and doesn't seem to mesh with the worldbuilding of the games is the introduction of wandering Shapers like Zensital and Thrackerzod who are not on assignment and are evidently left to find something to do on their own.

 

This seems to me to directly clash with the strong and consistent characterization of the Shapers being heavily focused on control. Admittedly, the Shapers don't seem to live up to their own standards when it comes to keeping things under control when looking at all the stuff left behind unsecured on Sucia and in the Drypeak mountains, but it seems to me there's still a big difference between leaving behind mostly empty labs with automated security that would require skilled knowledge to make real use of, and letting someone with said skilled knowledge wander around undirected and without any observation. It's clear that serious Shaping of the kind that the Shapers are most concerned about going wrong does require a lab, but what's keeping someone like Zensital or Thrackerzod from setting up in one of the aforementioned abandoned labs, engaging in unsanctioned research, and releasing some horrible new invasive species on the world? I would assume that kind of thing is how Scavlings and Spinecores came to be in the first place, and obviously the Shapers aren't a fan of letting more things like that happen.

 

Even without moving into an abandoned laboratory, what's to stop a lone Shaper from building their own facilities from scratch? Presumably anyone who's finished basic Shaper training is capable of making Thahds, so even a newly-minted Shaper could just go off into the wilderness in search of some untouched herbs and crystals, make some Thahds to act as labor, and then get to work. That seems to be the kind of setup Sharon has going - and Sharon's case also gave me the impression that the Shaper Council isn't inclined to leave any Shaper unsupervised or without an assignment, if she had to deliberately go on a far-ranging mission to go off-grid rather than simply being able to wander off. It always seemed to me that unless someone was fairly high up the hierarchy of Shaper governance, any Shaper was always going to be on active duty either reporting to the Council directly or working for someone else who reports to the Council directly.

 

Any thoughts?

[Aoslare]

Everything about Thrackerzod and his group clashes with what we know about Shapers, with the dynamics of having only two (2) Shapers on Sucia in original Geneforge, and so on.  They were a kickstarter backer inclusion, and it kind of feels like Spiderweb got backed into a corner on that one.  As far as I'm concerned, they don't exist.

 

That said, Zakary does comment on a period when he was some kind of wandering Shaper, too.  So maybe there is some kind of dispensation for that.

[Randomizer]

Wandering Shapers appear to be the bottom of the barrel in terms of no one wants to use them. Some are legacies from Shaper families that received training, but didn't excel enough to get assigned positions. They may have gone through a period like the PC in GF2 traveling with an established Shaper to learn practical experience. Still there might be enough that have no place to go unless there is a problem that needs a large number of Shapers like fighting off a minor rebellion or dealing with an outbreak of disease or rogue creations.

 

Most of the Shapers you deal with are highly experienced or work under the direction of a Shaper leader. These are all pasted the period of the GF2 PC.

[alhoon]

4 hours ago, Snallac said:

introducing the inutile

I remember the inutile from the originals too; Mutagen expanded on them, but so far I have not seen much expansion on them in Infestation. 

 

4 hours ago, Snallac said:

what's keeping someone like Zensital or Thrackerzod from setting up in one of the aforementioned abandoned labs, engaging in unsanctioned research

Ehh... they trust them. 

In the original, Shanti pretty much gave her apprentice free reign to do what he wanted - after teaching him to Shape a few things. That was not against the law and she even mentions (I don't remember O-GF2 but I think there was something similar) that she is not allowed to teach her apprentice more but he or she could learn from Zackary's trainers. 

In GF3, we have the same with Lord Rhaul (or was it Do-something the Shaper in 2nd island?) saying he will help the Apprentice with his training that was cut short.

 

I also do not get the "they are the bottom of the barrel" to be honest; that annoying guardian outside of Rhaul's palace mentions something about apprentices wandering around. As someone said in the topic of Zansital, he is like the guy that got his doctorate degree and is now cruising research centers to find a job. Zan doesn't seem worthless; he gives me the impression he has options but he is weighting them. 

I know several M.Sc graduates or docs that spent months to figure where they would like to go next. Not everyone is in a career path following earning a PhD.  

 

I seem to recall from GF5 that the Shaper Council eventually assigns prospectives to a job, but that is over a decade (and a war) after GF2. 

 

1 hour ago, Slawbug said:

They were a kickstarter backer inclusion, and it kind of feels like Spiderweb got backed into a corner on that one.  As far as I'm concerned, they don't exist.

They do seem out of place, that's true. I mean, it is a barred island. Strongly barred. 

Edited April 25 by alhoon

[Snallac]

2 hours ago, alhoon said:

I remember the inutile from the originals too; Mutagen expanded on them, but so far I have not seen much expansion on them in Infestation. 

There are plenty of misfit and neurodivergent creations present in the original games, but the term inutile is new to the remakes, and so is the idea that the Shapers would put Serviles incapable of productive labor in their own settlements to be left to their own devices as opposed to forcing them to work anyway or just executing them.

 

I am disappointed that the new plotline with the Ascended in Mutagen isn't carried forward at all in Infestation. I get that all of the Ascended definitely would have died on Sucia one way or another, but I would have liked to see the Takers working on augmenting Serviles alongside Drakons based on what the Ascended managed to do to themselves, or at least a couple of lines drawing a connection between the Ascended and the new method for enabling Serviles to do magic.

[oceanes]

Agree with most of the above. I'd also like to note, that it's kind of odd how few people in G2 on the other side of the tunnel seem to get that what they're doing is against Shaper law. Humans, that is. The serviles get it mostly. The commons, though, really have little idea of what is forbidden or not. The Shapers seem like a very hands off, but opaque government. Even people like Carnelian don't seem as nervous as I would expect, given that the Shapers and mages with the Awakened must know the Council's likely response. It makes you wonder just how much latitude local Shapers have to bend policy, and how well an argument of "The Shaper I was serving under gave me the order to do X." holds up in broader Shaper courts. It certainly seems to work for Zakary's people. In fact, I wonder if most "Shaper law" boils down to "the judgement of a Shaper in a given time and place, as precedented by the conventions of previous Shapers". It would explain a lot.

[Aoslare]

Some do express an awareness of what the council might do, including a few commons.  I just think it's not a conversation it made sense to write 80 versions of.

 

But also, they've been there doing that stuff for years before the PC shows up.  And despite the flowery language a few people give you about being an outsider with a unique ability to influence things... that kinda has zero truth to it.  There have been plenty of other shapers in Drypeak, including those stoutly loyal to the council and not Zakary, like Macnulty's crew, and Aodare.  It's just that apparently none of them chose to go back to the Council and call j'accuse... which is actually a little bit confusing.  The one thing that might make the PC seem more likely to do that than others is Shanti's death -- and that is a topic that makes pretty much everyone who is asked about it nervous, even when they had nothing to do with it.

[oceanes]

1 hour ago, Slawbug said:

Some do express an awareness of what the council might do, including a few commons.  I just think it's not a conversation it made sense to write 80 versions of.

 

But also, they've been there doing that stuff for years before the PC shows up.  And despite the flowery language a few people give you about being an outsider with a unique ability to influence things... that kinda has zero truth to it.  There have been plenty of other shapers in Drypeak, including those stoutly loyal to the council and not Zakary, like Macnulty's crew, and Aodare.  It's just that apparently none of them chose to go back to the Council and call j'accuse... which is actually a little bit confusing.  The one thing that might make the PC seem more likely to do that than others is Shanti's death -- and that is a topic that makes pretty much everyone who is asked about it nervous, even when they had nothing to do with it.

It's implied that the Drypeak mountains are very remote, as in half a year on foot or so. In fact, if, as a Barzite, you evict Elissia from the Upper Research Hall, she attempts to return to the Council and bring them down on the whole valley. Your character thinks that she will almost certainly die trying to get back, and even if she doesn't, by the time she warns them, it will be far too late. Macnulty and that group are in similar straits; if they obtain enough supplies to set out, they leave the factions, especially Barzahl, unimpeded for long enough that the news won't matter. Zakary, on the other hand, wants the mess cleaned up by him before he tells the council and falls on his sword.

 

You, on the other hand, are young, made the trip already recently, and only leave after everything is done, and so can afford to take your time, rather than hurry with urgent news.

Edited April 26 by oceanes

[Aoslare]

"You travel with Shanti for weeks... Then you climb into the desolate mountains.  You see the rubble and ruins surrounding Drypeak.  After a long, exhausting climb through the cold wastes, Shanti lets you set up camp in an abandoned shop. You sleep like the dead."

 

This is the Infestation intro.  It's only "weeks" of travel and that's before entering the "desolate mountains" -- which it sounds like you're only travelling through for one day before the game begins.

 

As for Elissia, the exact text is "She is old and weak. You doubt that she will make it back to the council alive."  It says nothing about the journey at all -- only that she is old and weak.  There's no suggestion that somebody younger and stronger would have any trouble making it.  There's little doubt that Kima, Macnulty, and Bunk, working together, could easily make the journey.  One Agent and an apprentice had no problem doing so.  It also doesn't seem like they are really having much of an effect on Barzahl.  And as for Aodare, he's not doing anything to actually impede the Takers at all.

[alhoon]

As for the Common I think they tell you "Oh, we don't do anything wrong, all is totally legal!" but from the discussions, I think most of them are at some degree aware. Especially in Drypeaks. Others are not aware of Shaper Law as it pertains to Creations. A Shaper told them "Help these serviles build a colony" and they chose to believe that these serviles are not rogue; I doubt Shapers explain to Common what "rogue" is. 

 

  

4 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

It says nothing about the journey at all -- only that she is old and weak.  There's no suggestion that somebody younger and stronger would have any trouble making it.

 

Well, Shanti didn't make it. Aside of hot-blooded Barzhites that may kill anyone attempting to cross to the Awakened lands, there is also a bunch of Rogues on the way. It is not without danger. Not for a full Shaper, true, with the exception of Shanti who is herself young, but certainly not without danger. 

 

The GF2 "apprentice" is at least level 12 at the time he or she reaches the Barzhites and the Barzhites allow him to come and go. If Barzhal wanted you dead, you would have a much harder time leaving. 

Edited April 26 by alhoon

[Broken Mind]

Commons are in no position to question what a Shaper tells them to do. Does it seem to contradict long term Shaper policy? Maybe, but that is for Shapers to determine, not Commons. It is obvious from the conversations that many of the commons know that what they are doing is illegal. They also know that they had no choice but to follow orders and keep their head down. As Shanti says, the Shapers present unity, and they keep their disagreements internal. If shapers are publicly disagreeing or in opposition, that sucks for the commons because it shows that something very wrong is happening. Doesn't mean they can disobey the guys who summon dragons.

[Aoslare]

What?  Shanti did make it.  This is about the journey between the Drypeak mountains and the Shaper Council, not travel within the Drypeak area.

[alhoon]

6 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

What?  Shanti did make it.  This is about the journey between the Drypeak mountains and the Shaper Council, not travel within the Drypeak area.

I thought the discussion was about the journey from deep inside the "illegal Shaping" area to the Shaper Council. Carnelian can Shape up to Vlish so I think she could be able to make it out of Medab, but again not without danger. And that assumes Lying Zakary the Deceiver would allow her to leave the Servants without arresting her. But someone out of the Barzhite lands... that would be difficult without Barzhal being onboard. 

 

That said, Zan-? the newbie Shaper that doesn't have a bunch of powerful creations around him does move around pretty nicely after you clear a way to the cities. It seems that once you clear a path it remains safe-ish enough for a Shaper to cross, even as new as Zan-? 

Dawn on the other hand, the apprentice under the Shaper in Gerth that I cannot even talk to since I am Awakened, is certainly too weak to travel, unless she gets a serious military escort from Barzhites.  

 

 

[Aoslare]

No.  The discussion was about whether or not loyalist shapers like Kima, Macnulty, and Bunk; Aodare; or Elissia, could successfully make it to the Shaper Council or not.  oceanes objected that Drypeak was too far for an easy journey (see above addrsesing that).  Making it to the Drypeak entrance is hardly an impossible task.  Whatever doubts the PC has about Elissia, she can shape drayks.  Kima can shape rotghroths.  And Aodare, well, he made it to Taker lands on his own, so presumably he could make it back.  The only thing that even remotely seems like it could pose a challenge would be a major Barzite force.  But Stannis only targeted Shanti because she was a new factor under constant surveillance.  That does not apply to any of these other shapers.  Barzahl isn't constantly watching them, and even if he did, would hardly send a major force after them just because they started walking east.

[alhoon]

Then why nobody informed the Council? 

[Mechalibur]

12 hours ago, Slawbug said:

As for Elissia, the exact text is "She is old and weak. You doubt that she will make it back to the council alive."  It says nothing about the journey at all -- only that she is old and weak.  There's no suggestion that somebody younger and stronger would have any trouble making it.  There's little doubt that Kima, Macnulty, and Bunk, working together, could easily make the journey.  One Agent and an apprentice had no problem doing so.  It also doesn't seem like they are really having much of an effect on Barzahl.  And as for Aodare, he's not doing anything to actually impede the Takers at all.

 

Random aside: despite this text she's actually one of the more challenging shapers to fight. She summons some quite overtuned rots during the fight which have buckets of hp and hit really hard. Like I honestly had a much harder time with her than Tuldaric 😄

 

56 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Then why nobody informed the Council? 

 

I think that's the core issue here. It is kinda weird that despite all the shapers still in Drypeak, not a single one has gone back to the council. Hell, there are loads of unnamed agents/guardians in Drypeak just milling about in Zakary's chambers: not a single one was more loyal to the council than Zakary?

[Aoslare]

1 hour ago, alhoon said:

Then why nobody informed the Council? 

 

Because it's an RPG.  It has RPG Plot Hole #1.

 

Almost every RPG has this problem: what's so unique about the PC(s) that they can do this thing, but nobody else can?  (Related question that afflicts most CRPGs: how the heck does their power level rise so meteorically?)

 

Geneforge 1 did a better job of avoiding these plot holes than any game I can think of: the player is one of literally two people in this isolated location with years of relevant, specialized knowledge.  Leadership-type manipulation helps explain this even more.  (And for power level, you have both the player's specialized training in learning things quickly -- at the exact point in training where it's primed, but unused -- and on top of that, the canisters.)

 

G2 and G3 both tried to copy and paste this solution.  In G2 it's weaker both because the isolation is less absolute and because there are other Shapers around (who don't have the psychological and geopolitical explanations for being stuck that applied to Goettsch).  The whole "you're an outside factor" speech that a few people like Darian throw at you is a little weird.  There are lots of outside factors in the valley, just as strong as the PC, and it's not clear why the PC tips the balance but nobody else could.  (G3 in some ways had less of an issue with this, simply because the PC's actions don't feel even remotely as significant.  But at that point it was a copy-paste of a copy-paste.)  (And G1's power level explanation doesn't really hold up in either game.)

[Broken Mind]

When I completed my unaligned playthrough I recall the ending mentioning that the Shaper Council had already heard most of what I was telling them. The shapers on Drypeak understand that the council is slow to move, dangerously so in this case, which is why they are more focused on slowing things down and on getting rid of the immediate largest threats, so that when the slow to move council finally acts it is not too late.

[Hyperion703]

On 4/25/2024 at 8:50 AM, Snallac said:

one new element that really bothers me and doesn't seem to mesh with the worldbuilding of the games is the introduction of wandering Shapers... who are not on assignment and are evidently left to find something to do on their own.

 

This seems to me to directly clash with the strong and consistent characterization of the Shapers being heavily focused on control.

The phenomenon of wandering shapers can seem odd, as many foreign cultural norms can be perceived by us. I see it this way:

 

An institution (in this case, the Shaper Council) has a strict systematic method for in-group membership. Formal acceptance happens while children are young, generally elementary ages. Apprenticeship occurs during mid-late teenage years. 

 

Following apprenticeship, there exists a formal period whereby the Shaper Council effectively ousts the fledgling shaper into the world to prove their loyalty and test their fortitude. Oddly enough, I liken it to the Amish cultural tradition of Rumspringa, whereby a young Amish individual is cast out of the community to live amongst the "English" (mainstream American society) for a period of time, returning to their people only if they are not seduced by the vulgar conveniences of a sinful society. It's like that, but with a somewhat corporatist twist, as the goal of the abandonment is for the young shaper to settle roots and become independently powerful enough to be recognized by the Shaper Council for formal (and permanent, I assume) acceptance into their ranks. Many wandering shapers are never acknowledged and/or admitted by the Council despite a lifetime of attempts. 

 

The benefits of this are twofold: For one, it breeds innovation. When social cells are left to develop individually instead of collectively, they are much more unique and inventive. The Council can capitalize on constant, fresh innovation through widespread competition as a result. Second, it saves the Council a ton of resources. Remember, these freelance shapers are on their own. They pay for their own lodgings, buy/grow their own food, are responsible for the day-to-day obligations of their lives. The Council essentially says to bugger off until you become noteworthy enough for us to notice you. Working under official, higher-ranking shapers can be one way to accomplish this, but far from the only way. Once a shaper has something of value to contribute, they are admitted into the ruling class and only then will the Council spend precious resources maintaining them. But they have to make it worthwhile. 

 

Anyway, that's my take. Admittedly, I have not played the original five (it's five, right?) games, so I may be missing something. It seems like a sound enough theory otherwise. Hope I provided some insight or at least food for thought.

Edited April 26 by Hyperion703

[Aoslare]

2 hours ago, Broken Mind said:

When I completed my unaligned playthrough I recall the ending mentioning that the Shaper Council had already heard most of what I was telling them.

 

Not quite.  What the ending actually says is:

 

"As you speak, the Council manages to slowly grow concerned. They are also strangely unsurprised. It's as if they have recently been told a tale much like this one."

 

In theory this could mean somebody else already reported what was going on in Drypeak, and the Council just ignored it.  It seems more likely a call-out to the previous game's ending, since your story of Drypeak is incredibly reminiscent on the report they heard from the G1 PC -- right down to the Awakened, the Takers, canisters, and a Geneforge.

[Broken Mind]

Ah, that does make more sense yeah

[MaddyE]

Hyperion703's take on the wandering Shaper trope fits with my thought - the concept of the journeyman as epitomised by medieval craft guilds.  After the formal apprenticeship, the journeyman takes off on their own on a wanderjahre.  If they do well, they can petition to become a master.

[alhoon]

2 hours ago, MaddyE said:

Hyperion703's take on the wandering Shaper trope fits with my thought - the concept of the journeyman as epitomised by medieval craft guilds.  After the formal apprenticeship, the journeyman takes off on their own on a wanderjahre.  If they do well, they can petition to become a master.

This is not just medieval practice. When I finished my first degree, I was told that traditionally, it is expected and often advised that we should go to a different Uni for M.Sc. 

[Aoslare]

That's not really parallel to the wandering-journeyman thing.  That would be like the apprentice going and finding a different master to apprentice under for the second part of their apprenticeship.