[Theory, Spoiler] Feels like a prequel to Avernum

[Envenger]

It feels like the game took place a few centuries before Avernum took place. The empire grew bigger and took over all its vassals, the Nisse went extinct after a few wars with the empire.
The Nisse's could have made the Slithzerikai and Vahanati in a last effort to fight off the humans and the underworld would be later named as Avernus.

Just my fun theory, any one else felt same?

[Randomizer]

It seems like Avernum prequel because it's still early in the Empire's expansion with unexplored areas, dealing with dragons, and the first visitation to a vast cavern beneath the surface with people living there.

[TriRodent]

Hmmm, very interesting.  We'll have to see if your brother or sister have a child named Hawthorne somewhere in QW2 or 3.

 

Hell of a way to wind up a career if that's the case (as all the GF remakes along with 2 & 3 will take him to close to age 65-70ish), bringing everything in a full circle to where it all began back in 1994.

[Slawbug]

I get the general feel, but there are pretty much zero details that line up -- and I'd expect something to line up.  I can believe that nephils aren't widespread enough to get a mention in this one land, but no goblins -- the surface pest that springs up anywhere and everywhere?  No real mages to speak of?

 

I guess in a few hundred years all of that could plausibly change, but at that point it could just as easily turn into the world for pretty much any fantasy or pseudofantasy story.

 

(Don't me go all Nine-Headed Cave Cow on this.)

[Randomizer]

10 minutes ago, Queen's Vlish said:

I guess in a few hundred years all of that could plausibly change, but at that point it could just as easily turn into the world for pretty much any fantasy or pseudofantasy story.

 

(Don't me go all Nine-Headed Cave Cow on this.)

Do you think this is pre-Sucia Island?

 

Although then portal technology was lost in those few hundred years.

[TriRodent]

Yeah, there should be at least some grunting spiders somewhere

 

/as they haven't learned to talk yet...

//and any that I ran across couldn't really be classified as 'friendly'

///maybe by a Hagrid type of person

[ladyonthemoon]

This is weird, I swear I read somewhere that QW was a prequel to the Avernum series...

[Ess-Eschas]

10 hours ago, TriRodent said:

We'll have to see if your brother or sister have a child named Hawthorne somewhere in QW2 or 3.

 

You know, you could make a slightly stronger connection between Queen’s Wish and Avernum if you wanted to. With apologies for neglecting some of those important, inconsistent details, Slarty ...

 

The Queen’s third failure was in the discovery of a huge series of underground caves, larger even than some of Haven’s continents. The caves were hostile and full of deadly creatures, so she sent several waves of some of Haven’s finest soldiers to try and subdue them.

 

These groups were killed to the last soldier.

 

Given the danger of the caves, the Queen waits until she thinks you are as prepared as you can be. At the start of Queen’s Wish 3, she sets the portal to this underground nation, and tells you that she wishes you to subdue it.

 

Alas, you don’t get the chance. As you make your way to the portal, there is chaos. Civil unrest has been building for years, beginning during Queen’s Wish 2. This is because news of the Queen’s poor health makes it out into the empire, making Haven appear weak. Some of Haven’s unhappy vassals – perhaps in Sacramentum, depending on your decisions – try to take advantage of this by launching a coup.

 

Led by a bold rebel, named Hawthorne, the palace is invaded and the royal family overthrown. He changes the sign of Haven to mark this, from the scroll to the rebel’s symbol of liberty: the crown, removed from the head of royalty. The Queen is deposed, and Hawthorne declares himself emperor – Haven, he says, has no need for the outdated system of ruling by royal birth (he will change his mind while in power, of course!). The Queen, sadly, dies. Sutter and Delia have, on the Queen’s foresight, already been sent far from the castle.

 

That leaves you, and your supporters.

 

Conveniently, there’s a portal to the most dangerous place in the Known World sitting on your doorstep. Rather than risk further unrest at killing you, former royalty, Hawthorne takes you and those loyal to you and exiles you to this new land. He jokingly refers to it through Haven’s name for hell: Avernum.

 

You arrive in an abandoned fort built by one of the first expeditions. You restore this and, with the help of some of Haven’s most powerful magicians – Solberg, Patrick, Rone and the allusive Erika – you set out to do what only Haven royalty could.

 

You might not be ruling Haven any more, but you can make a new and better Haven, starting in these caves. And so you build new forts and towns – Silvar, Fort Duvno, Formello – expanding into this new land. Who knows? If you become strong enough, perhaps you will be able to return to the surface and take back the throne.

 

This fulfills all the Nisse’s wishes, I think. You can boldly serve this new Haven, as king, or you can consider yourself far away and free from what the original Haven has now become, and can now follow your own path.

 

Behold, Queen’s Wish 3 becomes Avernum 0!

[TriRodent]

Jeff is either cracking up or furiously taking notes. You have to wonder if the original plan for QW3 just went out the window. One hell of an extrapolation to wake up to, well done (seriously). 

[Grimm]

Unfortunately, during an AMA on reddit, Jeff mentioned the possibility of an Avernum prequel as distinct from the Queen's wish series. 

[Slawbug]

3 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

With apologies for neglecting some of those important, inconsistent details, Slarty ...

 

These aren't "details", these are gaping incompatibilities.

 

The Nine-Headed Cave Cow frowns upon thee, Ess-Eschas, and is saving one of the thirty-six stomachs to disintegrate this particular hetero-oxy.

[Ess-Eschas]

21 hours ago, Grimm said:

Unfortunately, during an AMA on reddit, Jeff mentioned the possibility of an Avernum prequel as distinct from the Queen's wish series.

 

I'm not entirely sure this rules things out. For the record, here's the question and the reply:

 

Q: Allowing us to build forts, add building, and manage holdings is a great addition to the game. Will we see it carried over to future Spiderweb games, including the remasters?

 

A: This will be restricted to Queen's Wish games. And Avernum Zero, if it ever exists.

 

This was one thing I was thinking about when musing on the ideas above. I completely concede that Jeff is listing Avernum Zero as separate from Queen's Wish here. However, I think it's an interesting point to note that he is also saying that Avernum Zero *would use a similar engine* to Queen's Wish. At least in my book, this still leaves open the possibility of merging the two trains of thought. If he wants to do something big and exciting like this – and, for the record, I'm not trying to predict that he will, merely mentioning it as one possible route that could be taken – why would he want to spoil that now? Wouldn't it be far better to get us through Queen's Wish 2 first (and to see how well that game does financially, too), before trying another experiment, and linking the two series together?

 

Since I've mentioned this, the other idea I had in my head was a comment Jeff made in another post here. It's open to interpretation, since of course he could just be referring to the Nisse. However, I could read this as saying that, in a future game, you'll be sent to an inhabited underground region that has already been discovered by Haven. Here's the thread, for reference:

 

http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/25042-odd-narration-text-possible-error-spoilers-for-conlins-pit/

 

Just a thought. Like I say, I'm not trying to make predictions here. I'm just thinking of interesting possibilities for where the series could go!

 

21 hours ago, Last Electorine of Haven said:

These aren't "details", these are gaping incompatibilities.

 

Isn't there still a chance for the series to pull a Zork Zero, Slarty, and convert its bottomless pits into grues? Who knows, perhaps goblins end up being created by a Haven mage doing experiments on Mirelings? These samples could easily escape, and be the foundation of the goblin dynasty.

 

I'd also be willing to argue that we just haven't seen any powerful Havenite mages yet. (Note that we have seen some mages, since there are mages in each of the three battalions, but these are clearly not all that powerful). After all, someone in Haven had to build the portals, and set the powerful teleportation protections placed on the main character. Isn't portal building a clear sign of a mage of decent standing in Avernum? Also, Erika has a protective spell in Avernum 2 that is not dissimilar to the player's last-ditch teleportation save in this Queen's Wish game.

 

Still, my apologies, noble Nine-Headed Cave Cow. I shall return to the cleansing pools and holy statues in Gnass to atone ...

[Slawbug]

Do not misgender the facepalming hecatombchire.

[Randomizer]

Not seeing goblins doesn't mean much since they may exist as pests on other continents, but haven't gotten here yet by ship. Same with the other races because we haven't gone far enough underground to meet up with the demons of Avernum.

[Grimm]

3 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

This was one thing I was thinking about when musing on the ideas above. I completely concede that Jeff is listing Avernum Zero as separate from Queen's Wish here. However, I think it's an interesting point to note that he is also saying that Avernum Zero *would use a similar engine* to Queen's Wish. At least in my book, this still leaves open the possibility of merging the two trains of thought.

 

I had a similar thought. I think it's still technically possible for QW to be prequel to Avernum in the "Long, long ago" sense, but Avernum 0 as in "you participate in the founding of Avernum of a nation and the taming of its caves" would have to be separate from the QW series proper. 

 

Funnily enough, my first thought was that QW might be a sequel rather than a prequel. IIRC, the taming of the cave lizards, the development of the light generating plants, the mushroom trees, etc were things that happened after the arrival of the first expedition. In Queen's wish, they're already all there.

 

Then again, these all might be red herrings a la "Vahnatai can create monsters, Avernum is a Geneforge prequel/sequel/whatever".

[Randomizer]

Avernum 0 should probably be the game that does the First Expedition exploration of Avernum or the events leading to the imprisonment of the demons so the exiles could "safely" live in Avernum.

 

Queen's Wish is more like Empire 1 where you are still in the Empire's early days before they takeover the entire surface world. Finding out about the large caverns below the surface that could be used for humans gives the Empire the idea of going below for later conquest. After finding out the perils do you get to Avernum 0.

[Clintone]

So...let's see...magical creatures were originally created in the Geneforge series. Dragons and drakes and etc. spread outwards to colonize the world. 

 

Next comes The Queen's Wish series, a proto Empire from the Avernum games. Its diplomatic, assimilation-based approach eventually conquers most of the known world. Avadon gets stick in there somewhere too. I didn't play enough of those games to know where. 

 

Next comes the Avernum games. After the Avernum games comes the new Avernum games - Avernum 7 through Avernum 22, which just keep being made forever. 

 

By Avernum 23, the Nethergate game begins and the last magical creatures in the world are hiding out in ancient Britannia. 

 

Finally there's a game that takes place in modern times in which archeologists find the ruins of many ancient civilizations with a map leading to a portal. The archaeologists enter and find a bunch of lizard people who hiss when they talk. You now play as the modern military and you battle the Vahnatai who are annoyed at all the fracking.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Clintone

[Slawbug]

"The Last Expedition"

[Minion]

To add some fuel to the fire, the seal of Haven is a scroll, but as seen in the opening shot when you start the game, the seal on that scroll is a crown, which happens to be seal of the Empire in Exile/Avernum. I'd say that seals the deal.

[ladyonthemoon]

I finished the game last night and if it's not a prequel to Avernum I realy don't know what it is.

 

Spoiler

 

Answer # 1 here:

 

 

 

[Clintone]

I was convinced as soon as it was said that the Nisse lived underground, have grey skin (didn't the Vahnatai have grey skin?) and were harmed by sunlight.