I've skipped G3

[RaustBlackDragon]

I was hit by Sandy this week, but fortunately all I lost was internet. As I had happened to buy Geneforge 3 in advance before I had quite completed geneforge 2 (just in case the power stayed on but the internet went out, which, amazingly, was what happened), I sat down to play it, but I soon found myself taking some serious issues with the third game, and they've been stewing in my head all week, and now that I've got internet briefly, I've decided against my better judgment to vent my issues with the game here:

 

I'm sorry to say that I've decided not to finish Geneforge 3, after having beaten both of the previous ones. The gameplay is fun and all, it's just I really really hate how there are only two factions, neither of which is sympathetic at all. It's really really depressing and demotivating to play a game that pounds the moral into your head that "No matter what you do, no matter what you believe in, you are a massive jerk and should die."

 

That's seriously what I feel like. The rebels are insane, murderous upstarts who don't seem to notice that the Drakons are even worse than humans are when given the power to shape, and I would LOVE to fight against them, for stability and the security of the world. But apparently I can't be a loyalist for those reasons, I have to be a loyalist because I believe civil rights movements are silly hippie fads that people eventually grow out of.

 

You have to be a racist or a terrorist. You have to be either a horrible person who indirectly winds up saving the world, or you have to be a good person who actually recognizes what's wrong with the world, but who is willing to go way, way, WAY too far in a failed attempt to fix it. And I honestly don't enjoy either choice.

 

Make no mistake though: I absolutely adore this series, as well as the other games Spiderweb Software has made, so I've decided to just move on to the 4th game, since that goes back to the multiple faction model.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

G4's also got only 2 factions practically, So I suggest doing a straight jump to G5.

[Dikiyoba]

G3 is often people's least favorite game of the series, and the limited faction choice certainly has something to do with that. You can get a full refund from SW if you wish. Do give G4 a try, though. The two main factions suck, but you have more control over who to side with, which means you can go middle of the road for most of the game or doublecross both sides for loot and experience. There's also a sneaky third faction which you can take.

 

Dikiyoba didn't finish G3 either.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Dikiyoba
Adjusting phrasing

[RaustBlackDragon]

G3 is often people's least favorite game of the series, and the limited faction choice certainly has something to do with that. You can get a full refund from SW if you wish. Do give G4 a try, though. The two main factions suck, but you have more control over who to side with, which means you can go middle of the road for most of the game or doublecross both sides for loot and experience. There's also a sneaky third faction which you can take.

 

Dikiyoba didn't finish G3 either.

 

Thanks, I'll be sure to give G4 a chance.

[The Reverend]

I agree that the faction choices are both awful in G3, however I still enjoyed playing through to experience the full story of Geneforge. My agent ended up siding with the Rebels, but had to hold her nose to do it - she was kind of hoping that she could reform them from the inside (doubtful, but that hope allowed her to keep going through the game and not just build a hut on one of the islands and hide out for the rest of her days).

 

But yes, I completely understand the decision to not finish G3.

[nikki.]

I did finish G3 though, and in terms of factions/plot, it was actually one of the better GF games for me.

 

Let me explain. I liked the idea that there was no good side in this war, because it points to the fact that there is no underlying "good" to humanity. Terms such as "good" and "evil" changed throughout the game, depending on who I spoke to. I always end up pro-servile in my playthroughs, but in G3 being pro-servile didnt necessarily mean being pro-rebel. The fact that there was no easy answer made it a much more realistic, and much more interesting, struggle, at least to me. Having one overwhelmingly good side would've made the choices in the surrounding games much less important, and I'm glad JV didn't shy away from an unpalatable choice.

[BMA]

I liked G3 a lot better than the others. The linearity of jumping from one island to another was a welcome change, and a relief, after having been made to be in a central location with several directions to go to in the previous games.

 

Besides, you are a shaper, you know, which I like. Not a rebel, and not an amnesia-ridden either-way kind of person.

[Cala]

I'm sort of enjoying the plot in G3 so far, but that may be because of a choice I made right at the beginning. Usually I wander about and try to avoid joining a faction out of indecision for as long as possible, but in this game I decided to play "in character", as an arrogant pro-Shaper jerk. All those [censored] dialogue options I'd skip out on the other games are finally getting used! Morality does not really matter, because it's my jerk of a character making the decisions, not my personal choices.

 

I do have to comment though, I've noticed a few missions I've missed out on by being too much of a jerk to the person who offers it, so be careful! Haha

[Trenton.]

Skip Geneforge 4 and go straight to Geneforge 5. Best game in the series.

[Triumph]

RaustBlackDragon, I definitely sympathize with your frustrations. It's one of my biggest complaints about the game (the other being the boat system). It's fine to have a game with no "easy" "obvious" choice that will result in puppies, bunnies, and singing bluebirds for everyone (with free lemon drops for all). But it's another thing to give the player character nothing but morally reprehensible choices. In the real world, "doing the right thing" isn't always easy, nor does it always make everyone happy, nor does it always mean you avoid all negative personal consequences...but one always has the choice. G3 deprives you of any choice. "Choice" is meaningless if all options lead to effectively the same outcome. It's not really choice, then. Real choice necessitates options with meaningfully different consequences. G3 doesn't offer that.

 

It's disappointing because it really had the potential to offer a third way - characters like Fanjul (sp?) and Khyryk hint that Shapers don't all have to be megalomaniacal tyrants, while some of the rebels in Icy End show that one can resist the Shapers without being a murderous fanatic. Such a path might make you many enemies on both sides. It might deprive you of many reward the other sides offer. But you ought to have the chance to make that choice.

 

That said, G3 is still a fun game. There are some very interesting characters (most notably Khyryk, but also Hoge, for example), some cool locations (love Khor's Deep), such as the first major Shaper city seen in the series (Dhonal's Keep), and some cool scenarios (leading the Shaper army against the rebel army is especially nifty, and talking your way past Litalia, as a loyalist, in the final zone is pretty funny). If you ever decide to come back to G3, I hope you'll be able to find the fun aspects of it.

[RaustBlackDragon]

I did finish G3 though, and in terms of factions/plot, it was actually one of the better GF games for me.

 

Let me explain. I liked the idea that there was no good side in this war, because it points to the fact that there is no underlying "good" to humanity. Terms such as "good" and "evil" changed throughout the game, depending on who I spoke to. I always end up pro-servile in my playthroughs, but in G3 being pro-servile didnt necessarily mean being pro-rebel. The fact that there was no easy answer made it a much more realistic, and much more interesting, struggle, at least to me. Having one overwhelmingly good side would've made the choices in the surrounding games much less important, and I'm glad JV didn't shy away from an unpalatable choice.

 

I totally agree with the principle of not having easy choices, and having no objectively good path, but the trick is to have multiple PLAUSIBLY good paths, rather than a handful of paths that are completely unsympathetic.

 

Also, I started playing G4, and it's awesome. I love it so much more than G3, and a large part of that is the fact that they don't immediately pressure you to be a genocidal monster or anything, and they do a much better job of portraying the shaper cause in a positive light. Still not sure who I will ultimately side with, but I've known since G2 that the Drakons are even worse than the shapers, and if the rebels win, there's a good chance there'll be an even WORSE dictatorship.

[The Reincarnated Baron von Steuben]

It's good you like Rebellion. I too like it. Rebellion, in my opinion is slightly better. The factor of island hopping from Greenwood to that next one with Diwaniya to Dhonal's to Isle of Spears. Gave me a headache.

[RaustBlackDragon]

Yep, my initial impressions of G4 are holding up, it's a massive improvement over G3. I also love the expansion of mechanics and leadership to the point where you can actually devote your builds to it, and the removal of that arbitrary limit on the number of different types of creations you can have at once. That last part is really awesome because I like having an army without duplicate creations.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

removal of that arbitrary limit on the number of different types of creations you can have at once.

I loved that too, and the limit always seemed stupid to me,but the limit hasn't been totally removed, it's been extended to 6(5?) from what i checked in G5.

[Dikiyoba]

G4 has the creation type restriction removed, but G5 brings it back, because G5 is more graphically intensive than G4 and having too many different types of character graphics caused problems.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Trenton.]

You mean I can't have a Fyora, Thahd, Artila, Clawbug, Roamer, Vlish, and Battle Alpha all at the same time with the adequate amount of essence? You learn something new every day.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Although its actually possible to have a totally different party in case you picked up those creations from Perikalia, but they are a bit too weak.

[Catoblepas]

Geneforge 3 is actually my second favorite after Geneforge 4. It has a narrative that maintains a sense of forward momentum without leaving the player scratching their head wondering what needs to be done next (something I remember none-too fondly about my unaligned Geneforge 2 playthrough) and is the only game that gives you *permanent* companions. The banter between the player, Greta, and Alwan is fun to have, and I developed a fondness for them that I never really felt was fulfilled with the temporary companions from the other Geneforge games.

 

That being said, I would have appreciated the ability to give equipment to Alwan and greta, and some sort of influence system such as Avadon or other rpgs have to allow me to actually have soem influence over my companions. the ability to actually argue your point of view with Alwan/Greta would be much more interesting than just stating an opinion, Greta/Alwan acting happy/upset and gaining some support with the rebels or shapers.-which is how it works right now. The island system can be somewhat tiring, esp if you lose Alwan or Greta on the second island and have to go back to the first to re-recruit them.

 

There is the fact that there are only two factions, I don't think this itself is so much of a problem-Geneforge 4 had only 2 1/2 factions after all, and did fine. I think it is the fact that the player is denied access to certain options that should ethically be there, and this lack of choice is refelcted in the endings themselves, which are all very samey, and make the decisions the player made up until that point seem somewhat less rewarding. Mr Vogel actually touched on the subject recently on his blog about choice in video games. Point number three was "All of the obvious options are available" and while Mr Vogel does point out that he cannot cover all of the options, I think that the option to play as something other than a hardline Shaper or Rebel is something that the game sorely needed. Geneforge 3 is the last geneforge game in which the player can play as a shaper (with the player being a lifecrafter in 4 and a cannister-mutated, amnesiac in 5) This could have been the opportunity to play as a moderate shaper, but it is sadly passed on in this game. I'm not necessarily saying that there needs to be a happy ending where shapers and serviles embrace and there is peace and justice forever, but I think that the ability to choose to be moderate would have been a welcome addition, even if it resulted in less-than-happy endings such as some of the Geneforge 4 epilogues.

 

Geneforge 3 does a lot of things right, but I think it is overshadowed by geneforge 4 in a lot of ways. Many of the innovations that 3 brought to the series are drastically polished in 4. Despite this, I think that it is one of the better games in the series-better than 2, and better than 5. (I haven't played enough of geneforge I to comment on that)

[RaustBlackDragon]

G4 has the creation type restriction removed, but G5 brings it back, because G5 is more graphically intensive than G4 and having too many different types of character graphics caused problems.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Okay, that makes sense. What's the limit in G5?

 

I tend to give my character an obscene amount of intelligence, so at the beginning of the game, before creations start getting expensive, I tend to hit the "different creation types" cap rather quickly.

 

Oh, and did they reduce the essence cost of the Süpers (My personal term for the upgraded versions of the übers) since Geneforge 2? I hope so, because they also seem to have nerfed the Essence formula, and I could barely afford to add an Ur-Drakon to my ranks (along with my Drakon, Gazer and Rotghroth) at the very very end of the game.

[Death Knight]

Geneforge 3, 4 and 5, were all not very great. Geneforge 3 is plagued with linear gone wrong. Other than that, it had a better story than the 4th and 5th. Geneforge 3 also could have been much better if the game had the action point system of 4 and 5. Geneforge 4 was alright for story, but the game got extremely annoying and boring to play once in the fens of aziraph with the regenerating creations. Geneforge 5 just was boring and the least like a gene forge. It had linear and nonlinear in it and it didn't do good in either.

 

The reason the first 3 gene forges were better than 4 and 5 is because the first 3 gene forge games all were about the lone wanderer type feeling that the 4th and 5th didn't have. It was all about the coming of war instead of the war itself. Geneforge 4 and 5 just were lame because it was about the war and no more of the lone feeling of gene forge 1 and 2. Just thinking of it makes me want to fire up gene forge 1 or 2!

[The Reincarnated Baron von Steuben]

Geneforge 1 and Geneforge 2 had a much more open path. No "you have to go to this zone next". G3, G4, and G5 had a more definite path, more so of G3.

[Catoblepas]

I think that Geneforge 2 and 3 had the strongest stories, because they tie the player character to the settign of the game the best by giving them a mentor figure and a physical location- the shaper school-to be attatched to, making the character and the palyer more invested in them. That being said, I think that geneforge 4 has the best executed story, giving a great sense of story progression as you advance through the areas, while still allowing for a fair bit of exploration. There were a lot of tiems when I felt like my character had agency in the setting, and that my character's actions were valued and sought after in the story-that my character was soemone important. I think G3 suffered from being to linear and not giving players enough leeway to express opinions and perform actions that were anything but polar opposites (hardline rebel or hardline shaper) althoguh it gains points in my book by giving the player Greta and Alwan as companions, which helped the atmosphere and kept me invested and interested in the setting and the events of the plot. Geneforge 2 had a strong beginning, in my opinion, but the narrative quickly lost all coherency when Shanti went missing, that game. combined with random and unpredictable difficulty spikes in the second half of the game, and G2 left me tired, confused and frustrated, in contrast to excited and inquisitive like I had when I started the game. it wasn't fun to explore in the second half, and I quickly lost interest in the narrative as well. If there is a game in the Geneforge series I would personally reconmend skipping, it would be Geneforge 2. Geneforge 5 takes a lot of the good parts of 4, maintaining a narrative momentum while still allowing for a good deal of exploration. however, it too suffers in its second half from losing steam, forcing the player to choose a faction before the game rapidly comes to a close, with the amnesia plot being dissapointingly unresolved, and the choice of shaper factions being rather limited (2 shaper factiosn to 3 rebel factions), with the second being rather unappealing, and also being the last faction to be introduced. That being said, it is fairly straightforward and easy to play through, so while I didn't like it, I can't reconmend not playing it like with G2.

[Trenton.]

Geneforge 5 has best story. No exceptions.

 

I mean, waking up in a strange land with no knowledge of who or what you are, then you go around and slay a bunch of things? What could be better?

[Catoblepas]

Good stories usually have resolutions though, and that subplot never gets resolved in any sort of way that brings a measure of closure, which is a pity because I was looking forward to playing through the game as utilizing the shaper/rebel classes and choosing pro/anti shaper paths and seeing if the game played any different. A guardian character gets the same story as a shocktrooper, unfortunately. One of the primary motivations the player has for exploring the world- to find out who they were-has absolutely zero payoff whatsoever. I think the amnesia/imprisonment plot does a good job of making the player invested in their character, of making the events of the game mroe personal, but the end result of the plot is underwhelming to say the least, so I would say it would be a bit unfair to say it has the best plot of the games when what is perhaps the most important plot of the game has goes out with a whimper.

 

Also there is the fact that cannisters have effectively zero effect on the game, and the player is forced to use a geneforge, essentially forcing one of the core moral decisions of the series out of the hands of the player. The game world itself is pretty static, with the faction leaders pretty much just staying where you first meet them for 99% of the game. Even less important characters are pretty much immobile for most of the game, with Greta staying in one place for most of the game outside of two brief encounters, ditto for mekhen after she leaves your party. Compare to Geneforge 4 where the front lines of the conflict shift repeatedly over the coruse of the game and major characters routinely pull up stakes to relocate to new areas, it feels much more like the world is an actual conflict going on in that game and that the situation of the war is changing as the game advances.

 

Furthermore, with the factions themselves, due to the reputation system being tied to what factions you can join, and the number and way in which the factions are introduced, the player has no where near the opportunity that they had in G3 or G4 to explore the factions in their entierty. Taygen's faction itself doesn't appear until the game is pretty much on its last act, this results in none of the factions being as well-developed or explorable as the two factions we get in G3 and G4.

 

Personally, G4 is my favorite, followed by G3, G2, and G5. (haven't played enough of G1 to speak about it)

[The Reincarnated Baron von Steuben]

Personally, G4 is my favorite, followed by G3, G2, and G5. (haven't played enough of G1 to speak about it)

 

Have you entered your opinion into the favorite game poll?

[Catoblepas]

Have you entered your opinion into the favorite game poll?

 

yes, G2 unaligned, G3 shaper, G4 shaper, G5 Alwan. While I do have reservations about the behavior of the Shapers, joining the shapers just seems to reliably be the more reasonable and moral choice to me, both from the perspective of the player character, and from an outside perspective.

[The Reincarnated Baron von Steuben]

I hate that Headmaster from Greenwood Academy. The one that does all of Litalia's dirty work. One of the reasons I went Shaper. I didn't like the Shapers much in G3, but I really hated the rebels with a passion.

[Dikiyoba]

Geneforge 5 has best story. No exceptions.

 

I mean, waking up in a strange land with no knowledge of who or what you are, then you go around and slay a bunch of things? What could be better?

That's sarcasm, right?

 

Catoblepas: Yeah, the amnesia storyline and Jeff's design aesthetic for player control over the history and motivation of the PC(s) doesn't mesh very well. Gradually uncovering the PC's history is very important to the amnesia storyline, while player control over the PC history calls for any background information being given at the very beginning of the game.

 

Dikiyoba.

[The Reincarnated Baron von Steuben]

I just gave up on Rawal and his charade and go to Alwan.