Catoblepas

I haven't actually played any of the Avernum games yet. But in terms of Geneforge I liked G4 the most. (although I liked the companions from 3 and felt that it was the most 'personal' story of the 5) I think it did a good job of showing the progression of the shaper-rebel war, and the player's actions can have a huge impact on the endings. And G5 the least. Too short, no consequences for Canister use, unbalanced factions (Shaper factions introduced last, 'moderate' Shaper faction is actually a rebel faction, less shaper factions than rebel ones etc) Dropped plotlines about halfway through-you never get to uncover your past. Never get the chance to get revenge on Rawal in most of the endings, etc. It also seemed too short.

On the other hand, using canisters have a *lot* of repercussions on the ending depending on how many you use and which faction you join...In Geneforge 3 the Cannisters barely affect the endings, and have no impact on the endings of Geneforge 1 or 5 at all.

I found the G5 endings rather anticlimactic as well. Perhaps its because I never really felt like my character has much at stake in the outcome of the war, unlike with earlier geneforges. You never really got the chance to build up friendships/rivalries with other characters. I kinda feel like player agency in the endings could have been stronger, particularly considering it's the last game in the series. The loss of the canister tracking feature being the biggest omission, IMO. I think the game began to unravel after crossing the mountain range. There was a plot about regaining your mind and body, and there was Rawal as a clear antagonist. But after crossing the mountains those plotlines are rather quickly dropped and the player is quietly shepherded towards joining one of the factions and then the endgame. I just feel like the first half of the game had more going for it.

I don't think creations should have access to all equipment the PC can use, but I think weapons and armor would be enough, at least for the battle creations such as Thahds and battle betas. Even if they were rather limited in what they could equip. I think it would be interesting if we had a way of monetarily investing in our creations, and using some of that spare loot we acquire to outfit them. It's lore friendly too...since Betas at the very least can wear chitin armor. Not to large of a stretch to imagine they could use a club or an axe as well.

No import of the stat tree from Avadon. I strongly dislike it. I find it highly constraining and I don't think it would mesh well with the spirit of hunting for trainers/canisters/tomes the game has. Junk Bag. I'd like it if 90% of the junk wasn't reduced to having a value of zero though. Some way to gather money/experience if you are stuck on a part and can't advance. An arena or something like that would be ideal. I never use javelins or batons because money is always so scarce...a painfully finite resource. Companions that stick around longer and act more like characters (equipment, skills) instead of creations. While we are at it, some way of boosting our creation through weapons or equipment? I think Alphas and Betas sometimes drop chitin armor, and it makes sense for a Thahd to wield a club. make a use for those axes we find, eh? No recharge time for spells or abilities please! fighting fire-immune enemies in Avadon was a real chore as a Sorceress. If we have the Energy and Essence, let us cast it! More endings, branching paths, new sidequests etc! Romance is fine, although I don't see where it would fit in really, outside of Geneforge 3, really. I thought it was handled well enough in Avadon. Perhaps some more ambiguity to the 'canon' endings in the various games? I know the Geneforge games are never going to have an import feature, but perhaps something like how KOTOR 2 let the player set the gender and alignment of the character from the first game through a casual in-game conversation? I liked how Geneforge 4 kept it up in the air for most of the game who the hero of Geneforge 3 worked for,(letting me still picture my G3 character as being pro-shaper,despite the loss of the isles) and was sad that all that got thrown away in the last parts of the game.

I had problems staying motivated in G2, I'll admit. Up until the point Shanti disappears I really didn't feel much reason to be anything other than a loyal shaper, so I obviously wanted to get my mentor back as soon as possible. The Loyalists lie to you, setting up the mess with Shanti, the Awakened lie to you, trying to get you to go in the opposite direction that Shanti was taken, and the Barzites....well we know what they are responsible for... By the time I finally caught up with Shanti and confronted the Barzites, I really wasn't left with much left for a pro-shaper to do. I was far too under-leveled to take revenge, and it seemed evident that he game wanted me to join a faction to level up and progress. But the non-aligned shaper camp doesn't offer faction or quests, so I was left with the option to join a faction I had no reason to join, or leaving (and get the bad ending). Loved the game up until that point though.

I try to imagine that the G5 protagonist/mad shaper are completely different characters than the G3 protagonist. G3 protagonist is probably the one I felt the largest connection with, and I usually play a Shaper in G3. For me at least, it's preferable to imagine that the G3 protagonist was unable to breech the defenses on the final island and just got transferred elsewhere or evacuated when the Drakons took over. I just don't like the idea of my G3 became the canister-addicted slave of the Rebels and eventually went crazy.

Greta/Alwan seem like logical choices for this in a hypothetical remake of the Geneforge games, at least for G3. Alwan is in a relationship in 4 (and would be unlikely to start anything with a lifecrafter anyways) and on life support in G5, while Greta is a canister user in G4-G5. I suppose there are a few minor characters and temporary companions that could be expanded on to be romantic interests, but for G1-2 any such characters would have to be added to the game, I think. I don't think having to make servile-specific RI would be too hard, considering that the only two games playable serviles appear in both have servile companions. I think Romances would be a nice addition to any future Geneforge games/Geneforge remakes, and I'm happy that Jeff has started to include them in his games. I'm about equally excited for the ability to influence faction loyalty of companions in Avadon 1+2. If Jeff decides to include these two facets into any future Geneforge remakes, I'll be rather happy. it would make the conversations between Alwan/Greta/PC in G3 a bit more interesting in particular, I think.

I think you misunderstand me here, difficulty is not something I'm complaining about here, I'm just a little bit disappointed by the manner and extent by which the game restricts you from exploring various options. The result is a combat engine that might have a lot of depth on paper, but seems a bit shallow in practice because of the way you are disincentivized towards exploring such options. There seems to be even less of an incentive in the Avadon games to use the shops to purchase consumables than in the other Spiderweb games I have played. (both in their limited utility and extreme price) which means they tend to get hoarded for the big fights in my experience. Likewise the way abilities are handled seems to push the game towards a limited number of maneuvers or tactics. It seems geared a bit too much towards a simplistic playstyle for my tastes, is what I'm saying. That's a problem I have as well. I think the high prices for potions etc and the 'all or nothing' mentality of Avadon fights is another barrier. No real incentive to keep your party members alive as long as you win the fight, so using potions etc outside of any situation short of what would otherwise be a total party wipe is disincentivized.

Personally not a fan of the regenerating health/auto cure/auto revive paradigm the Avadon games have been using. It seems to lend itself to an 'all or nothing' style of gameplay that doesn't seem to care how you win or what shape your party is in afterwards, only that you do win. Thus, it doesn't really feel like there is much incentive to 'play smart' outside of the boss battles where you are in immediate danger of a party wipe. Because of these mechanics and the high price of scrolls, potions, etc-you are also discouraged from using items in battle, outside of the mushrooms and dried meat etc you find lying about because they are costly to replace in a game that repairs all damage anyways seconds after combat ends and provides limited funds for buying anything other than the bare necessitates. The timer cooldown on abilities, (including shared timers on many abilities) can mean that battles can lack for variety after a while since the game discourages use of items and somewhat pidgeonholes you into a handful of core abilities-particularly early game. Combined with the oppressive frequency of battles and it can feel a bit tedious IMO-which battles should feel anything but. Personally the battle systems of Geneforge 3-4 were probably my favorite in the series, striking a good balance between tactics and resource management. That being said, I think Avadon 2 is a lot better than Avadon 1 in this department- I haven't found any situations like in the first game where a big chunk of my party is useless because of the icy lance cooldown and fire immune enemies.

If I had to choose a favorite Spiderweb game, I'd have to choose Geneforge three or four. Geneforge three is where such wonderful characters as Alwan and Greta and Litalia appear, which are quite important to the series, and it probably has the most personally involved storyline of the series, while in four I felt that the player character was best interwoven into the conflict-you had rather close working relationship with whatever faction you decided to side with, and I think best carried the feeling of a world where there was an active conflict going on, where in some of the others it sometimes seems like you are the only one ever doing anything while the faction leaders sit around waiting for you to come to them. I can't really comment about the non-geneforge games, because the only non-geneforge spiderweb game I have played is Avadon.

Exactly. I felt a much more strong connection to my character in those games because you have a much more clear stake in what happens. (when playing the shaper path in G3, I recall a point where Litalia (might have ben Blaze) on no uncertain terms threatens you character's family on the mainland) It made my actions feel like they carried more weight IMO. I think geneforge 4 also works very well in this regard because even if the opening doesn't really give much for you to work with right off the bat, you work very closely with whatever side you choose to go with, and I think it works very well for making you feel invested with the factions. Geneforge 5 is in a peculiar place because it makes uncovering your background and dealing with amnesia a major plot point in the early game, which silently and suddenly peters out around the time you use the geneforge. I don't think this would be as much of a problem to me except that the game simultaneously makes such a big deal out of it, and then proceeds to relegate it to the 'D' plot. You can choose between shaper and rebel classes, but it doesn't affect anything, characters like Greta and Litalia will hint that they know you but never reveal any information to you. and at the farthest end of the continent, after fighting through mutant drakons and navigating a minefield you finally reach the person who supposedly can answer your questions only to get a more useless answers. Combined with the other main personal plot, the control tool, deflating in a similarly anticlimactic way, and the removal of one of the core character-defining choices in Geneforge games-the canister side effects, I think that the geneforge 5 protagonist is probably the least interesting to play for me-I found it highly disappointing how it was handled. Personally I think Spiderweb should have gone with another generic shaper/rebel recruit and have it take off from there, preferably with a sidekick or two like in G3, a mentor figure like Shanti, or a 'home base' sort of place to tie the character from like the academy in G3 or the citadel in G4. As for the question of identity of the G5 protagonist, Some dialogue seems to hint at your character being ex-rebel, which would seem to make sense, being all mutated by self shaping and all that. Personally I like to think that the character is *not* one of the protagonists from the previous games, because I would hate to think of some of my old protagonists messing themselves up with canisters/geneforge like the G5 protagonist seems to have done.

I hope the new isometric crpgs have specs somewhat on par with the older ones, I don't intend to be in a position where I have to choose between updating my laptop and not playing the game, because playing the game will lose. Personally, I'd love it if the just went back to making Infinity engine crpgs based off of the Icewind Dale 2 system-(none of that 4th edition garbage-rulewise or spellplague!) If developers just did that, I would be infinitely happy. Hopefully Eternity and Torment are as good as is hoped to alleviate the lack of such games.

The lack of any sort of resolution to the amnesia plot was what put Geneforge 5 on the bottom of the pile in the list of my favorite Geneforge games. When you start out the game it seems to be one of the most important motivations for actually doing what people say. You get strung along for a long time and at the end of the road the whole plot point just seems to be a long red herring. Rather irritating IMO in that several faction members/leaders *hint* that they know you, but refuse to tell you anything. I was really hoping that my choice of a Rebel/Shaper would have some sort of impact on a hypothetical reveal. Were you a Rebel recruit? An experiment gone wrong? A lifecrafter who took one too many cannisters? Geneforge reject? A shaper who found a few of the canisters that the Rebels strew along the countryside to mess up the unfamiliar ala Geneforge 3? Someone who got their mind and body blasted by one of the shaping traps like in the last level of Geneforge 4?You never find out, and since you are already warped massively by shaping, the canister/geneforge mechanic has no impact on anything besides one dialogue. The problem with the 'blank slate' character design of Geneforge 5 is that there really isn't anything to fill it in. You don't know anything or anyone, you don't have friends, family, and organization whose well being you are invested in. Your ability to acquire some sort of mentor/companion figure is severely limited. You are used and abused by everyone around you and it never really felt to me like your character was allowed to become your own IMO. You remain a blank slate for the entirety of the game. I felt that In G5 you are kinda just a confused glowing hunchback pushed out the door by Rawal, whereas in the other Geneforges I felt that much more immediate connection for the events of the game to build off of (and were more effectively built off of)

I have had her attack during both my Loyalist and Rebel playthrough. You can talk her out of attacking you, but she seems to still attack no matter what (as if you tried to walk past her without talking to her) I think I might have been able to talk myself out of the situation *once* without killing her-but I may be mistaken. It's a shame, since I was looking forward to our final showdown, but the conversation is buggy as heck, and Litalia herself really isn't....herself at that point, so there is limited satisfaction in your final meeting IMO. Because regardless of if you were looking up to her or wanted revenge against her for the Shaper school or whatever, she's just another crazy shaper at that point, something rather amplified by the bug.

I would like it if the intelligent creatures had a deeper level of interaction at least. I would definitely like to see some form of ramification for being a pro-shaper individual with Drayks and Drakons in tow. Something to distinguish them from the disposable summons we see in every other rpg.

I was completely unimpressed with the new one, even less so than the last one. It Just seemed like one big collage of pop culture trek references strung together by action scenes. It relied way too much on the crutches of nonstop action and fanservice, without really ever trying to set itself out as its own thing-attempting to ride on the shoudlers of iconic trek movies that came before (most notably ST II). By the end it was really starting to feel like a slog to get through. Watching these JJ movies makes me wonder what it would have been like to see a movie set in the old continuity with that level of funding. The old Trek movies often had problems getting the money to fund even basic stuff-reusing stock footage of bird of preys blowing up, reusing TNG sets, not having enough funds to even give everyone the right uniforms. People say that JJ's trek 'revitalized' trek, but I'm not so convinced. I think that all the funding they gave JJ to make his trillogy had a big part to do with why it was so successful-special effects and marketing that many of the old Trek's jst did not have access to.

I would love a 'Geneforge 2a 'or a 'Geneforge 3b' sort of game, that explored some of the possible endings that weren't picked up in the follow-up games. I remember beign rather disheartened in Geneforge 4 when I found out that the canon ending for G3 was a rebel victory....some people on these forums might remember the particular degree to which I *hate* the Geneforge III rebels, so the idea that Esther went off and joined the Rebels was a bit painful, I'm sure other people feel similarly about some of the other canon endings for the other various games. At any rate I think it would be itneresting to explore the possibilities of alternate storylines with a new game. I'm not sure how likely it is though, Mr Vogel doesn't seem to be very interested in revisiting the series at the moment. Avadon seems to be taking up most of his attention for the forseeable future.

Considering the choice of playing as either one of the Shaper or Lifecrafter classes, I had high hopes that the amnesia plot would resolve itself in a different manner depending on if you chose a Rebel class or Shaper class. Unfortunately, your choce has zero impact on how people treat you, oustside of the choice to play a servile. I found the handling of the class choice/amnesia plot to be rather underwhelming for this reason... The only difference between the classes is stats, when it comes down to it.

the creature in the lava screenshot kidna reminds me of the podlings from Geneforge, which gives me a little twinge of excitement that Jeff might be working towards a Genbeforge remake at soem point in the future. Nice to see 'rebel lands' on the map. Looks like in Avadon 2 the rebels will have more of a unified presence-that would make me optimistic about a more fleshed-out rebel option.

I'll probably play through as a Sorceress again. I usually use whatever spellcaster classes are available in a given rpg over non spellcasting classes. My reasoning is that in a fantasy game, why constrain myself to the guy who hits things really hard with a sword when I can shoot lightning from my hands?

Temple of Elemental Evil had a very interesting combat system with a lot of options, more than any infinity engine at least. Unfortunately, unlike the BG series, Planescape torment, or Icewind Dale, it has a rather lackluster plot and sidequests, and it seems exceptionally railroady at times. For instance, at one point early in the game, there is a dark elf cleric you have to kill to get access to the next area. Instead of killing him, I used nonlethal attacks and beat him unconscious, stripped him of his armor, weapons, and items, and ran out the door. Apparently you can't get to the next area without killing him however, so I ended up beating to death some helpless naked guy to advance the plot. Temple of Elemental Evil had a lot of potential, but horrible execution. The Infinity engine games are all pretty solid though, and you might also want to look into the Neverwinter Nights games as well.

I'm not quite sure why Jeff decided to tone down the endings in the later games so much, he only picks one ending to be the 'canon' one anyways, since Genefore is not a series with import data. Even if you base your allegiance off of the flip of a coin, odds are in favor of you being disappointed in the sequel when your faction loses out. So why not go all out and allow for some endings where you get to really stomp all over the Shapers/Rebels or usurp control for yourself etc? As for the original topic, I like the geneforge series more than Avadon, but they are somewhat different games, with Avadon being a bit more forgiving in many areas with the exception of some truly bizarre difficulty spikes such as the ravine hellhounds in Shimas quest, the two battles with the illusionist drake, and the optional final battle which I reckon you are familiar with. Playing as an Agent, I found the best defense to avoid getting hit was to kill the enemy before they get the chance to attack you in force. Shapers seem to be a bit fragile, so it pays to find ways to avoid getting attacked in the first place, in my opinion. Using creations as a screen or using mind spells/damage spells to thin out the ranks can help a lot. I personally hardly ever used melee weapons over the course of the series, because that would involve getting closer to my opponents. Shapers/Guardians might play a bit differently though.

I just modded the Level of the Golems down so the could be killed in a timely fashion, making the fight much less tedious to finish. Probably not what he intended Hopefully Jeff listens to all the controversy over the Redbeard battle and gives folks with rebel sympathies a proper path and ending this time around instead of just teasing us for the entierty of the game and then throwing up a ridiculous boss battle wall like Redbeard and a rather unsatisfying ending. After several hours of effort grinding through that battle again and again till I got it, and I was sorely disappointed to see that the endign is nearly identical no matter wht you do, I still haven't bothered to the campaign a second go, I just haven't found enough replayability, despite the many thigns I liked about the game.

I'm not really getting the argument for the Shapers beign generally incompetent and corrupt. Most of the exampels I'm seeing from Student of Trinity are in areas in which the shapers have explicitly lost control to the rebellion. Litalia and the teacher from the academy are rebels in a civil war, judging them by the standards laws and rules of a faction they no longer belong to seems a bit misplaced, to be honest. Likewise, Agatha experimented with illegal shaping....but it's clear that at least at first, she was not aware of the nature of the cannisters, and that the rebels were deliberately giving them to her to make her incapacitated. There really isn't much wrong she can be attributed to, given the situation. ANd, it's important to note, the Shapers [spoilers] have her executed anyways[spoilers/] in the shaper ending, so you can't really say that they weren't policing their own. In fact, I'd like to point out that two of the three sub orders of the shapers are dedicated to policing, with guardians executing shapers who break the rules, and agents hunting down rogue creations. Again, with the exiled shaper (there is another in G5, a guardian) I don't see evidence of incompetence, but rather of competence. The Shapers police their own, and the outsiders, quite well when left to their own customs and rules. It is the rebellion which generally stirs things up-with spawners and distributing cannsiters despite being quite aware of how it can turn well-adjusted folks in it for ideological reasons into raving deformed lunatics liable to strike out at their own allies. I am of the opinion that the likes of Monarch wouldn't be able to cause nearly as much trouble if the rebellion was not around and the shapers were not overstretched. Unstable folks like Taygen would be removed by the council or the guardians, and Rawals experiments with self-shaping (even going so far as to build a geneforge!) would get him the death sentence, and Serville terrorist villages that Astoria sponsored would not be tollerated. I feel that Student of Trinity may be missing the picture here with these accusations here, there is a lot of indication that situation the world is in in G3-G5, with rogues, bandits, cannister-crazed shapers etc everywhere is a product of the conflict with the Rebels, and that the radicals, corrupt, and crazies liek Astoria, rawal, and Taygen are taking advantage of the chaos to pursue their own agendas, and that such behavior is not typical of the shaper controlled lands. We know that the shapers are controlling, harsh, and at times cruel (particularly to the serviles), and not entirely in control of their periphrial territories in the early games, but I don't think that applyign the biggest problems with the shapers and applying it to the organisation as a whole as the status quo is entirely accurate. IMO the rebels have far worse skeletons in their closets-and isn't the series all about choosing the lesser of evils anyways?