Anyone else disappointed with the writing?

[Acky]

Note that I'm not critiquing the gameplay or character design . The world is very interesting to explore and I'm having plenty of fun with the plot. Those are the strong aspects of the game.

 

What I'm talking about is the general writing. Descriptions of areas. NPC development. Character dialog in perticular. They're just a shoddy job compared to Jeffs recent games. I know that this is a remake of a remake of a game made in the 90s, which was Jeffs very first game no less, but does anyone else feel like the game doesn't take itself too seriously? It's seems like the game is making fun of itself. So far I've just seen very little character development and underwhelming chats with the NPCs. It stopping me from being immersed in the game. I wouldn't be very annoyed if it were not for the fact that Jeff stated that, "I redid everything. Every element of the game, every line of text, everything was redone. I put as much work in Avernum: Escape From the Pit as in a new game." Sorry Jeff but I feel like you're just blowing smoke. The spots where dialog has been added are extremely different from the original dialog and it shows. Jeffs skills as a write have gone up tenfold since Exile/Avernum, so I guess I'm just too used to it.

 

Maybe there's something I'm missing, or maybe this is just so far removed from the games Jeff's been making lately, but in my opinion, this is a very weak release from SW dialog and writing wise.

[Aoslare]

If Jeff _actually_ stated that "every line of text" was redone, he was inaccurate.

 

My guess is that what he meant in context was that every line of text was considered for revision. There are actually a number of places where there are minor alterations in what somebody says. Still, almost all of the dialogue is either very similar, or identical, to what it was in Exile.

 

As somebody who really dislikes Avernum-style forced-question conversation and preferred the Exile-style keyword-based system, I do find remakes of games with the old system (E1-3, BoE, and Nethergate) to be far more tolerable than games written with the new dialogue system in mind. There are far fewer cases where you have to cycle through 4-8 different questions, in order, just to get to the topic you needed to ask about.

 

And given that I've played through parts of this dialogue 6 or 7 times already, that's a very good thing. Those numbers are even higher for E/A 2, so I'm enjoying the respite from annoying conversation chains while I can.

[Kreador]

Maybe your issue is that it's less dark and serious. There are certainly some dark and serious elements to it, but this game has a lot more humor as well. That doesn't make it bad or weak, just not to your taste.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I agree that Jeff has refined his writing style, and not all of that refinement comes across in remakes. I don't think it's a huge difference, but it is a difference.

 

On the other hand: character development? When has Jeff ever done character development? Across two decades of games, there are maybe a dozen characters that get the sort of development that most any major character in a good novel, movie, or RPG by the likes of BioWare or Squaresoft undergoes. Even then, a significant number of those only get that much development because they recur over the course of multiple games (Litalia, Solberg, Greta). Complaining about poor character development in Jeff's games at this point just reminds me of that Penny Arcade comic involving a game reviewer complaining about the ways in which a dog is not a cat.

[Randomizer]

Wait until you get to the Freehold of Kyass and see some new characters with some interesting things to say. I think Avernum 2 remake will continue to diverge from the older storyline.

[Aran]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

I think Avernum 2 remake will continue to diverge from the older storyline.

Has he actually said he's doing that? The announcement on the webpage implies the next thing will be an Avadon sequel.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Aran: Next thing coming is almost certainly an Avadon sequel. Jeff has said somewhere that he plans to remake all of the first Avernum trilogy, since one of the chief reasons he decided to go the remake route is that the current A1-3 instantiations don't work on many modern computers, but vague recollections suggest to me that he will alternate them (i.e. Av2-A:CS-Av3-A:RW). I may find a quotation for that when it's not 2:30 AM my time, but for now this may have to be a fiat-type operation. Believe or do not, as suits your preference.

[Aoslare]

Spiderweb's release schedule since 2001 has alternated Exile-franchise remakes and expansions with auxiliary-franchise expansions, with an occasional third game (N:R) thrown in. I see no reason why this would suddenly change.

[Juan Carlo]

I rather like the lighter tone. Especially after playing Geneforge 1 and 2, which are probably the darkest of the spiderweb games I've played so far.

 

As to the writing, I think it's fine. The characters don't have as much depth or development to them as the ones in something like Avadon, and the moral universe of the game doesn't have as many shades of grey as the Geneforge games do (in fact, Avernum doesn't seem to give much thought to morality at all, although I'm only currently level 8), but I think this is an entirely different sort of RPG than Avadon/Geneforge are. Avernum reminds me more of old school paperback fantasy/adventure choose your own adventure type writing, only with more of a sense of humor. It's a very specific sort of "gee whiz let's go on an adventure!" type pulp that is charming, I think--and kind of refreshing, actually, in an era when it seems like every RPG has to be super dark and self-serious and melodramatic. Plus, I've always liked the fact that spiderweb games are still written in the second person (which used to be the norm in video games and certain types of interactive fantasy fiction, but is now hardly ever done).

[Death Knight]

I might be alone but i happen to find the writing in all of jeff's games to be superb. The games where i found the writing to be more top notch was Avadon, geneforge 1, 2 and 3, and the 2nd avernum trilogy.

 

I think that avernum's 1st trilogy was more about the wilderness/cave survival aspect than about the writing. The writing is still there and awesome but it captures more of the fallout 1 and 2 side of things where you are a group of adventurers and you HAVE to survive the outdoor trials.

[Gabriel]

When Jeff says that the text is redone perhaps he means that he looks through the text and pulls every line out of hard-code and puts them into the new text library files in the scripts folder of the game (wow, what a job, I'm impressed! This could lead to some non-English language translations of the game text, but at this moment the text is still limited to the ASCII letters represented in the Font image G290).

[Gabriel]

When Jeff says that the text is redone perhaps he means that he looks through the text and pulls every line of the text out of hard-code and puts them into the text library files in the scripts folder of the game (wow, what a job, I'm impressed! This could lead to some non-english language translations of the game text, but at this moment the text is still limited to the ascii letters represented in the Font image G290).

 

 

 

I'm in the early game. The text in this game seems okay so far. There was one dialog that seemed bland or perhaps there was a joke in the air when it was written and I missed it. I forgot what is was already. Mostly, the text so far has just been variations of the original text from the first Avernium game. Though, I liked the dialog going from the tutorial cave and up into Avernum: going from "claustrophobic" to "vertigo" really sets the mood, I think.

 

 

I hope Jeff doesn't overkill on character development. I rather like leaving some stories up to the imagination. I'd like to think that it's still possible for a game to let's say have the character do through a large road-block (fights/traps?), thinking about the hoards of treasure the block must be guarding, only to discover that behind it all is just a little old woman and her cat. Why she was hiding like that and where she got the resources to put up such a facade isn't answered and left to the player's imagination. And, the player never finds out the whos, whats, and the life story of anyone involved.

 

Okay that's a little extraordinary (And I suspect many players would just kill everyone (the lady and cat) in that case out of frustration). So, let's just say a random house you find in the wilderness has just a few words of dialog and the rest is a mystery. Sort of like what has appeared in other spiderweb games(old Avernum, Nethergate...) the obscure herb shack or witches hut.

[Kreador]

Well, there is that one little old lady and her cat out there in the wilderness, but her situation is pretty well explained, and you're welcome to try to kill her. ;-)

[Alorael at Large]

I have the opposite reaction, actually. I'll agree that the NPCs tend to be one-dimensional, but they're also usually one-use. Caricatures work. Where A1 shines, and where the later games in the series fall off a little bit, is in the atmospheric descriptions. Yes, A1 and its remake are less grim, but that's in part because the narrator has more of a voice, and it's a snarky.

 

—Alorael, who can no longer tell nostalgia from genuine appreciation, though. But he remembers being impressed by E1/A1 writing, and he still likes it, so he'll continue to defend it.

[Kinsume]

Frankly, I liked the guy who was being held prisoner in the Neph Fortress as a sex slave. He's the only character that has really stood out to me thus far. That was just funny.

[Marak]

The only thing that concerns me is how, in each game, there seems to be less and less of those long, elaborate text boxes that pop up, describing a new area and how your characters react to it.

 

Those bits of descriptive text are some of my favorite moments in the various Avernum games, and it seems like Jeff is actively working to pare them down to a bare minimum.

 

Maybe it's for the best, I know a lot of people feel they break the flow of the game or that such things should be shown and not described - but to me they always evoked that "sitting my basement as a kid and listening to my dad be Dungeon Master" feeling. It's a good feeling.