Understated Ur-Drakon Nioca Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 So, as a few of you might be aware, I've been having some odd sleep issues lately. Actually, I've been having sleep issues for the past 3 years, but this is a different beast altogether. Basically, it started two days ago; I wound up waking at the crack of 5:00 AM. Not too unusual, except I had gotten to sleep a mere four hours before, and generally am more prone to oversleeping than not. Next night, same deal. This time, I only got three hours of sleep. So, tonight (err, yesterday, I suppose), I decided to get to bed early. Really early; sleep deprivation has a nasty habit of catching up to me. So, at 4:30 PM, I go to sleep. 4:45 PM that same afternoon, I'm awake, and wondering why the hell I can't get back to sleep. After about an hour and a half of futilely trying to get back to sleep, I finally decide to just ride it out and hope I pass out some place comfortable. It's now 1:28 AM. And as the title suggests, I'm not even slowing down. It's like my body's decided to shrug off such menial things as sleep, and my mind refuses adamantly to shut off. While I've got a very general and mild fatigue going, I'm basically wide awake, with no prospect of getting sleep anytime soon. Have any of you guys ever had this happen, or heard of this happening? I thought I might be getting ill, but persistent energy isn't usually a symptom of illness as far as I'm aware, and there's no other signs of illness aside from the sudden insomnia. Mind, I'm not complaining too much; it's not actually impairing my ability to function at all. But I'd still like sleep at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Tirien Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Doesnt sound strange to me, but i've had severe insomnia for over 8 years now. If you start going without sleep long enough to start hallucinating, then its serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Niemand Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Y-y-you've b-b-become a g-g-god! More seriously, that sounds really weird. I can't say I've heard of anything quite like it, but even as un-illness-like as it seems, I'd say that if it persists for a significant period (and particularly if that mild fatigue gets stronger as a result), you should consider seeing a doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dintiradan Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 In my experience, sleep deprivation is like alcohol intoxication, in that after a certain period of time you lose the ability to judge how tired you are. For me, it comes and goes (probably tied to my REM cycle or something). When I'm pulling an all-nighter, I'll be physically and mentally tired around 1:30 to 2:30 (-ish, period varies wildly depending on the last time I was up late). Then I'll hit a peak of productivity and work throughout most of the night. By early morning, I'll be somewhat physically tired, but mentally lucid (at least it seems this way to me; I'm sure I'm less productive at this point). I might notice a slight increase in clumsiness, but that's it. I'll still zonk out on bus rides, though. By the evening, I'll still be mostly alert mentally (or so I think), but my fine motor control (typing, etc.) is going, and I feel a dull aching in my legs. I'm quite the wuss compared to many students, as I don't think I've ever pushed myself past the forty consecutive hour mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Sudden bouts of insomnia usually have a cause. You can probably go for a few more days at that rate, but you will have mental fatigue and make mistakes without noticing them. I've had insomnia most of my life and consider 5 or more hours great. But I also know better than to drive or do something important if I can avoid it. Most of the medications to make you sleep work fine if you only use them a few times, After too many uses the meds will make it harder to sleep.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Nioca Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dintiradan In my experience, sleep deprivation is like alcohol intoxication, in that after a certain period of time you lose the ability to judge how tired you are. Yeah. Thing is, though, I've actually experienced sleep-deprivation enough times that I can typically identify the symptoms it brings (short-term memory glitches and wonky thermoregulation being the two most prominent), thus signaling that it's time to pack it in for the night. What's weird about this is that I'm getting none of that. Just minor fatigue. Originally Posted By: Randomizer Sudden bouts of insomnia usually have a cause. Yeah. A quick look on Wikipedia suggests that it may have something to do with the fact my circadian rhythm is screwed up. Normally, I can get 9-12 hours of sleep in one go. Albeit that in itself is odd. I've had circadian rhythm problems for the past three years, and while it's caused some sleep loss now and again, it's never caused this. Then again, my schedule's been rather hectic and out-of-phase with my c-rhythm the past few days as well, so maybe that has something to do with it. ...It is now 7:19 AM. It has been over 14-and-a-half hours since I woke up from that 15 minute nap. Yet, somehow, I am still going strong. *is baffled* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Triumph Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 I had insomnia for a while, some years back. Eventually it REALLY wears on you, and is disruptive emotionally as well as physically and mentally. In my case, it eventually turned out that a medication I'd been prescribed was causing it - as soon as I quit taking the med, I started being able to sleep again. Don't know if you take anything, but after my past experience I'd doublecheck any that you are to make sure they don't have possible side effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody RCCCL Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 This occasionally happens to me, I think mainly because I work nights. I'll be physically tired, but my mind won't shut up. if this persists for a couple more days, you should see a doctor, and should do so before using some of those sleep aides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Nioca Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Triumph Don't know if you take anything, but after my past experience I'd doublecheck any that you are to make sure they don't have possible side effects. No. I actually avoid medications as much as possible. The only drug in my system is caffeine, and that's never caused a problem before. Originally Posted By: RCCCL if this persists for a couple more days, you should see a doctor, and should do so before using some of those sleep aides. Yeah, a visit to the doctor's definitely in order if this persists too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Enraged Slith Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 This sounds completely normal to me. For a while, I couldn't go to bed before 10:00pm, because I'd wake up 2-4 hours later feeling completely rested. My sleep cycle would switch every few days until finally landing on something normal, when I'd suddenly get really drowsy at around 8:00pm and take a four hour nap, starting the cycle over again. I finally fell into the really nice pattern of crashing at about 9:00pm and waking up at around four and five in the morning, but getting sick ruined that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Aoslare Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Yeah, this also sounds completely normal to me. Sleep is touchy, and in my experience, it is especially touchy for people who spend a lot of time in their heads, because it is easy for what's going on in your head to override feeling tired. Your friends in trying to have a stable sleep pattern: 1) exercise. Plenty of physical exertion. Seriously, this has made a much huger difference for me than anything else. 2) routine. This is probably unrealistic for a college student; many people need something forcing them to awaken at the same time every day for this to work. But having a very consistent routine can really help; your body DOES get used to going to sleep at a certain time. 3) not taking too much caffeine. Caffeine DIRECTLY messes with your ability to know how tired you are. I drink coffee once in a while, and love it, so I'm not dissing caffeine, but if you consume caffeine on literally a daily basis and have sleep problems, that's something to consider. 4) if there isn't a direct biological cause, it means that consciously or unconsciously, something is on your mind. and that means talking about what's on your mind, probably in therapy. although sleep deprivation is on the list of symptoms for various DSM diagnoses (depression, anxiety, seasonal affective disorder) you don't have to actually have those for it to affect you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody waterplant Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Slarty has the main areas covered - exercise, routine and caffeine. Try limiting caffeine to mornings only and seriously limit (or avoid) energy drinks - they can really mess up your sleep patterns. Simple mental exercises to clear your mind can help. It shouldn't be too hard to find a seminar to learn de-stressing techniques or ask your doctor. But mostly, get some stand alone physical activity into your routine. Commuting by bike or on foot, or physical activity as part of a job doesn't count. A long walk somewhere pleasant is good to let brain activity settle. Good luck, Nic. Oh. Camomile tea before bed is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast keira Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 i am used to sleeping from 2am to 6am, which most people say is weird, and i will be perfectly fine. However, if i get a 'normal' eight hours (or even six) i am exhausted and i almost end up falling asleep in the middle of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Ephesos Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 I've got to agree with pretty much all of Slarty's points here. I've been down the sleep deprivation road an awful lot (probably still there), and those are solid bits of advice. Also tea is good. Make sure it's the kind without caffeine. Only had to make that mistake once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 As better advice has already been given and this is all I know of insomnia I'll make it short: 1. micro-sleep (see wiki) 2. go to sleep lab (if affordable) 3. melatonin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 If you're not tired, why worry? I've gotten very little sleep and felt fine, and I've gotten large amounts of sleep and felt exhausted when I woke up. That said, if you experience more than a few days of such extreme lack of sleep, it's a good idea to see a doctor. There are some conditions that can cause inability to sleep and/or lack of the usual symptoms of exhaustion, and some of them are serious. —Alorael, who also knows people who just don't need very much sleep. He'd love to be one of them. Sleep is very nice, but you're not aware enough of it to enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Axe me no anvils —Alorael, who also knows people who just don't need very much sleep. He'd love to be one of them. Sleep is very nice, but you're not aware enough of it to enjoy it. Old age generally allows you to sleep for shorter periods of time reverting one to a near infant state of the sleep cycle among other infant like symptoms. So the older you get the less you need one long sleep and can instead feel rested with several short "naps". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Rowen Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: Alorael Sleep is very nice, but you're not aware enough of it to enjoy it. I'm aware that I'm asleep when I sleep. That also gives me control over my dreams as long as I don't believe that they are real. Once I think the dream is real I loose control. As for Nioca not sleeping; do you know anyone named Tyler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: Erasmus Old age generally allows you to sleep for shorter periods of time reverting one to a near infant state of the sleep cycle among other infant like symptoms. So the older you get the less you need one long sleep and can instead feel rested with several short "naps". Commonly stated, but is there evidence for it? —Alorael, who has on the other side seen a fair amount of evidence that lack of sleep contributes to age-related physical and mental degeneration and that many elderly people are, in fact, able to improve life quality by improving sleep quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES seasonal affective disorder you guys and your made up illnesses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Aoslare Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Well, it's more about the parameters of what counts as psychiatric illness, which are not well-defined. None of our brains work in precisely the same ways -- at what point is it legit to call something a mental illness? Once upon a time, this quietly hinged on something I've heard labelled as "social breakdown syndrome" -- if somebody's life peels apart in a way that affects and is visible to others, and you can see a pattern when you look at it side by side with other people, there's a mental illness. But the last decade or so it seems to be trending sharply towards what people can find or see, when they go looking proactively for mental illness. Look at the overdiagnosis of ADHD and bipolar disorders, and look at some of the diagnoses considered for the DSM-V -- shopping disorder? SAD is actually relatively reasonably defined -- it's not technically considered its own disorder, just a variety of depression; and whether or not you like specific definitions of depression, or whether you think it should be considered an illness, it makes a lot of sense that depression EXISTS and that it can be largely seasonal in nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Cite sources for overdiagnosis of ADHD and bipolar disorder? Again, that's a failure of the medical system that gets tossed around a lot, but I haven't heard underdiagnosis/undermedication come from psychiatrists or psychologists, who would be in the best position to know. —Alorael, who finds it rather insensitive for people to throw around "made-up illness" accusations. There might be some, but mental illnesses have been considered non-illnesses for a very long time, and they're only very slowly gaining recognition as legitimate, biological, and treatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Aoslare Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Pulled off of google, here's a blog post summarizing a study (available elsewhere on the web) and citing opinions of two respected psychiatrists: http://www.furiousseasons.com/archives/2...osis_study.html I'm not intending this as prime evidence, but just to show that this opinion does come from psychiatrists and psychologists. In fact I've rarely heard a mental health professional say otherwise, and I've worked with quite a few over the last decade. This, again, is not intended as evidence (it's not) but just as the etiology of my own opinion. Originally Posted By: Telluric Black Oceans ...mental illnesses have been considered non-illnesses for a very long time, and they're only very slowly gaining recognition as legitimate, biological, and treatable. Legitimate, yes. Treatable, yes. Biological... depends what you mean. Is biology involved at all? Obviously. Can relevant distinctions be seen biologically with the tools at our disposal? Sometimes. Can what's going on with the biology be discretely delineated and understood? Much less commonly. There is an egregious tug-of-war, and has been for some time, between the neurologically oriented view of mental illness and the psychodynamically oriented view. The chemical changes we go after with medication now are often supported with legitimate evidence; they are a far cry from the days of lobotomy -- but they are arrived at just as haphazardly. Mental illness is legitimately different from physical illness because we can't manage it the same way, because our understanding of its biology is limited -- and I am skeptical that it is possible for us to get beyond that for a certain chunk of the mental illness pie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: Telluric Black Oceans —Alorael, who finds it rather insensitive for people to throw around "made-up illness" accusations. I guess I probably did come across as insensitive there, and I didn't mean to be, I'm also not saying that mental illnesses are "made up" - I'd like to have thought that people here knew me enough not to have inferred that from my post, but that's probably more my fault for phrasing the post as I did. Rather than clumsily try and explain what I meant, I'll gracefully bow out of this thread now. Sorry for any upset I might have caused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Nioca Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 An update: Around 9:30 AM yesterday, I started noticing I was forgetting things. So, I decided to try to get to sleep, and viola, got a nice 14 hours. Yeah, wasn't kidding about what happens when sleep deprivation catches up to me. Albeit I'm back on a nocturnal schedule again, it seems. :| Thanks for all the advice; I'll have to try that to sort out my circadian rhythm. Originally Posted By: Rowen I'm aware that I'm asleep when I sleep. That also gives me control over my dreams as long as I don't believe that they are real. Once I think the dream is real I loose control. Lucky you: while I'm not always aware I'm asleep, when I am, I generally have none to almost no control over it, whether I realize it's just a dream or not. Originally Posted By: Rowen I'm aware that I'm asleep when I sleep. That also gives me control over my dreams as long as I don't believe that they are real. Once I think the dream is real I loose control. Lucky you: while I'm not always aware I'm asleep, when I am, I generally have none to almost no control over it, whether I realize it's just a dream or not. Originally Posted By: Alorael Sleep is very nice, but you're not aware enough of it to enjoy it. I like it more because I think of it as a reset button, personally. Particularly if I'm in a poor mood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody waterplant Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: Nikki. Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES seasonal affective disorder you guys and your made up illnesses! Originally Posted By: Telluric Black Oceans —Alorael, who finds it rather insensitive for people to throw around "made-up illness" accusations. To turn Nikki's throw-away line into an accusation is a bit of a contrivance. Nikki's comment is about as insensitive as lancing a blister. Give me my medicine with a suck of lemon rather than a lump of sugar any day! Originally Posted By: Nikki. Rather than clumsily try and explain what I meant, I'll gracefully bow out of this thread now. Sorry for any upset I might have caused. Resignation Denied! You are hearby reinstated to this thread! btw: I'm not trying to start a fight here, I just think Aloreal is being a bit unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Aoslare Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I don't think Alorael was being unfair at all. Obviously Nikki wasn't being particularly serious and not at all malicious. But if there's someone reading the thread who _does_ get depressed during the winter, well, I can't imagine that comment made them feel particularly welcome and understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody waterplant Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Fair enough. Sorry Alorael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: Telluric Black Oceans Cite sources for overdiagnosis of ADHD and bipolar disorder? Again, that's a failure of the medical system that gets tossed around a lot, but I haven't heard underdiagnosis/undermedication come from psychiatrists or psychologists, who would be in the best position to know. —Alorael, who finds it rather insensitive for people to throw around "made-up illness" accusations. There might be some, but mental illnesses have been considered non-illnesses for a very long time, and they're only very slowly gaining recognition as legitimate, biological, and treatable. Steven fry made a documentary of his bipolar disorder in which he interviews several people on the subject of overdiagnosis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES Legitimate, yes. Treatable, yes. Biological... depends what you mean. Is biology involved at all? Obviously. Can relevant distinctions be seen biologically with the tools at our disposal? Sometimes. Can what's going on with the biology be discretely delineated and understood? Much less commonly. There is an egregious tug-of-war, and has been for some time, between the neurologically oriented view of mental illness and the psychodynamically oriented view. The chemical changes we go after with medication now are often supported with legitimate evidence; they are a far cry from the days of lobotomy -- but they are arrived at just as haphazardly. Mental illness is legitimately different from physical illness because we can't manage it the same way, because our understanding of its biology is limited -- and I am skeptical that it is possible for us to get beyond that for a certain chunk of the mental illness pie. The real difference is that mental illness is no longer viewed medically as a personal failure, or a character flaw, or weak will, or demonic possession. We've come around to seeing that even when we can't understand the etiology, even when the manifestations are baffling and complicated, we can still recognize diseases, try to treat them, and treat the patient as a patient, not as a failure. —Alorael, who isn't so convinced that the understanding of biology is necessarily limited. Neuroscience is still a young discipline, and it's improving all the time. Many pathologies that were entirely mysterious a decade or two ago are now at least partially understood; it seems unreasonable to assume that some diseases will remain psychological without ever having any neural basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Student of Trinity Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 My experiences of bad sleep deprivation were mainly in military leadership training, where sleep deprivation is deliberately used to simulate the stress of battle. I never quite got to the point of hallucinating, but I did lose relativity. I'd walk past a bush, and flinch because that bush just moved! But I could still figure out what had happened, and find it funny. So I guess it was never really that bad. Staying up all night writing a term paper was always very much more unpleasant, even if the total time without sleep was much less, because I had to wring creative thoughts out of my whimpering brain, not just react to events. After going without sleep a long time on those training courses, getting even six hours solid sleep was an awesome experience. It was lake gaining a level. Maybe gaining several levels. All of a sudden I became so much better, at everything. One time I got an extra six hours of sleep that my buddies didn't get (because I knocked out a tooth and had to be hauled in from the field to a dentist), and I became the official platoon demi-god, the go-to guy who could do anything better than anyone else. It was like being the one human in an army of kobolds or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dintiradan Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: Alorael The real difference is that mental illness is no longer viewed medically as a personal failure, or a character flaw, or weak will, or demonic possession. We've come around to seeing that even when we can't understand the etiology, even when the manifestations are baffling and complicated, we can still recognize diseases, try to treat them, and treat the patient as a patient, not as a failure. This. This this this this this this this. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Tirien Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dintiradan This. This this this this this this this. This. Tourettes syndrome, Dinti? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Sudanna Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 What a personal failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: Seiðmaðr Eld What a personal failure. What other people have, whereas I have a difference of opinion that hasn't yet been resolved in my favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 hey, at least you don't feel as if you are going blind every time you try to read something on your screen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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