Kelandon

Apparently he changed his mind and edited out whatever it was that he posted. It's probably better that way.

I finally got in contact with Comcast. They'd be a decent webspace provider if they didn't keep deciding to slay my zombie e-mail accounts that I keep solely for their megs. The Archive is, yet again, back up.

That's a fairly standard theory. I can't remember the last time we discussed it, though.

Oh yeah, that reminds me. Setting the cr_small_or_large_template improperly causes crashes, but these crashes may not occur the first time the monster appears. The first thing I'd check here is graphics, and part of checking that is checking cr_small_or_large_template. All known causes of UE are here , at the bottom.

That means that he should probably e-mail again.

I don't think it can, and I'm not sure that it's really necessary or even desirable.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Wrong. It is in times of warfare that progress flourishes the most. If everyone has shaping powers, how can there not be surpluses? Plenty of delicious ornks, lots of lumber, hordes of serviles to work mines, and tons and tons of magical artifacts! Wait, did you just say that war creates surpluses of resources for general consumption? That's got to be one of the most obviously false things I've ever heard.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Second Slith War: Oh... I remember now. How do you know that Micah was already dead at that point? Or is that part of you guys' fan fiction time line? It's set at a time where Houghton was regent for Starrus - only a few years before Avernum 4. Could you answer the question I asked? Drakefyre is not a fan of giving actual evidence for his canon assertions, much to my frustration since the very first thread in which I posted. If his statement is true, it of course proves that Micah was already dead. Houghton was regent only after Micah's death. However, no reference to Houghton, Starrus, or Micah occurs in ZKR, as far as I know, and I'm fairly sure that Houghton and Starrus make no mention of the war themselves. This suggests that Drakey just made this up.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Kelandon: As far as I am concerned, Rentar is a detailed villain. I have given you the reasons why I think this is so. You disagreed with me without explaining what you think a detailed villain is. Quote: Originally written by Kelandon: If the whole game is going to be about defeating Rentar-Ihrno — one quest, not three like A1 or A2, not six like A3, with no real artifact quests to speak of — then I'd like Rentar-Ihrno to get a little more dialogue. (snip) Their struggles! A really compelling villain is one with whom we can identify at least to some extent, whether you're talking about Satan from Paradise Lost or Cartman from South Park. A great villain presents a sympathetic case, a compelling argument, something that we can latch onto and say, "That could be me!" Rentar is just crazed. We can't agree with her. We have no reason to. As I have said before, a detailed villain is one who has a sizable number of lines, either spoken by the character or spoken by others about the character, and in those lines, such a villain must convey a convincing, complex background or psychology. Ideally, such a background or psychology must be surprising or sympathetic in some way. Rentar doesn't even have a sizable number of lines, and much less does she demonstrate a complex background or psychology.

What did Jeff say? Did you get a response?

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Kelandon: Yes, game villains and novel villains are too inherently different! Your examples made this blatantly obvious! There's a heck of a lot more involved in why Paradise Lost would make a bad computer game than that Satan would be a bad villain. Surely you know that already. But I'll ask again: why does coming up with an example matter? Do you really not know what I'm talking about and need an example to understand the concept of a "detailed villain"?

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Second Slith War? How did I manage to miss this? Did I miss some kind of tome somewhere that explains this war? Now I'm burning with curiosity... where is this war mentioned? Most explicitly in Jeff's BoA scenario Za-Khazi Run, but there is at least one reference to it — I forget the location — in A4. EDIT: Captain Matos in Fort Monastery makes reference to it. Pea Eye, under Silvar, gives the only real description that I remember: "It was a small one, but nasty, not too long after Empress Prazac let the Avernites back onto the surface. I helped ferry supplies down the Za-Khazi Run, after some other adventurers cleared it out."

Tullegolar: What difference does the genre make? It's not as though good villains in, say, novels are inherently different from good villains in computer games.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Paradise Lost and South Park would make terrible games! Who would play those? Well, I might, but it would be out of sheer curiosity, and I am certain they would be really bad. A South Park game, while fun, is not a very good example of how to improve Avernum 4's plot. As for Paradise Lost, I am not sure how that would be made into a game at all, but you are welcome to try. I feel as though you're deliberately misinterpreting me, here. I'm not saying that we should turn these into games. You asked a question about multi-faceted antagonists. If you really want something from a computer game, how about the Myst villains? Most of them don't fit the terms I've described above, but they work well because they're individual. Achenar is bone-chillingly cruel, and we spend a fair bit of time learning about his cruelty on a few of the Ages. Saavedro is vaguely Rentar-like — he's doing a lot of this for revenge or something — but we actually learn a bit about what his world was and why he's so angry that it was devastated.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Kelandon, can you give me an example of a multidimensional villain so that I have a better idea of what you are looking for? I already did, one from an extremely serious genre (Satan from Paradise Lost) and one very much not (Cartman from South Park). I can't give an example from computer games because I don't really play computer games much other than these. The only reason that R-I needs to be multi-dimensional in A4 is that she is the whole plot in A4. A1 had several major quests. A2 did, too. A3 had quite a few. All three had significant artifact quests, too. A4 has none of that: it has just one major quest and that's it. It puts a lot of focus on R-I and beating her. There is the subplot with the Darkside Loyalists, but that turns out not to have real consequences in A4 — A6, maybe?

Quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: Quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Why, in A4, is she attacking Avernum? The Empire stole the crystal souls. Apparently her desire is to kill all humans for the errors of just a few. This makes her, again, a simple cartoon villain. I thought this was fairly obvious - Avernite adventurers foiled her plot for revenge on the Empire. Now she's getting revenge on them for stopping her initial revenge. Well, you're right. She doesn't just randomly choose Avernum. However, she wants revenge on all of Avernum because of the actions of four Avernite adventurers. She says, "My dispute is with your kind." What she is after is genocidal revenge, whether ill-placed or well-placed. And what is this thing with R-I and revenge? It just makes her look hate-filled and spiteful. Again, a cartoon villain.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: You think the game was too predictable? You must be a genius, I'll bet no one else had any idea that Rentar would return to wreak havoc once again! Except for the fact that she said she would. You were supposed to expect her. The suspense was not "who is creating these monsters" it was "were finally going to defeat our long time rival." That is what makes the plots in Avernum 3 and 4 different. We've overlooked this, it seems. I think it's fair to say that every SW message board regular and every Blades designer could guess the entire "Rentar" plot of A4 from this page . It's worth noting that Cavanoskus guessed immediately based on the scantest information. A4 was predictable. Quote: Of course, Avernum 4 was not meant to have a big twist plot. You are correct when you say that. Why then do you insist on judging the game by that very factor? I don't know where you're getting this bizarre idea that many of us are saying that we don't like the game. Stareye said that A4 was a good hacking game. I think the same thing. It just has a garbage plot. Quote: Kelandon: Perhaps I was making stuff up. Is that not the point? No, it's not the point. If I wanted to make up my own story about what Rentar's background, motivations, and intentions are, I would do that (and maybe make a Blades scenario). I play Avernum games because I want to see someone else's rendition of these ideas. Quote: Do you even know what RPG stands for? I don't know what you think that the fact that you're playing a role of some sort — whether chosen by you from a list of options or chosen by the designer for you — has to do with how detailed the background about the NPCs is. Quote: Then again, was I making stuff up? Vahnatai do revere crystal souls, right? Rentar is a vahnatai, right? Yes, but Rentar behaves differently from other vahnatai. Many felt that they had been wronged, but not all cooperated with her in attacking the Empire. Why does Rentar have such strong feelings about this? Why is she choosing to resort to violence? With the information we're given, it appears to be part of her personality: she's just a violent individual. That makes her a simple murderer, which makes her a cartoon villain. Quote: When here people stopped supporting her, if they ever even did, she had nothing left but her hatred for humanity. Why did her people stop supporting her? When? Why did they disappear after A3? Your explanation leaves more questions than it answers. But about Rentar's psychology: she did in fact have nothing left but her hatred for humanity. What kind of character does that make her? A one-dimensional one! She has only one motivation: the desire for genocidal vengeance! Why, in A4, is she attacking Avernum? The Empire stole the crystal souls. Apparently her desire is to kill all humans for the errors of just a few. This makes her, again, a simple cartoon villain. Quote: It doesn’t take a psychologists to figure this out. Just because you can’t connect the dots on your own doesn’t mean I’m making things up. I do realize that A4 gives some answers about Rentar's motivations. The answers that it gives seem to indicate that she's a one-dimensional evil character. I'm not saying that her actions are unmotivated; I'm saying that they appear to be motivated by pure personal evil. A4 needs to tell us more in order for Rentar not to be a simple evil character. Quote: Quote: Originally written by Kelandon: a note left behind in a dungeon/fortress Now who’s writing the crappy plots? Intriguing. You think that a message left behind in a dungeon/fortress is a crappy plot. What, then, do you think of exactly that in A4?

Quote: Originally written by BainIhrno: There's also an archive with almost every BoE scenario out there, but it's down. Er, no longer. It has been back up for a while now. EDIT: Wtf. It is in fact down. I have no idea what Comcast is trying to pull. I can only assume that it will come back, because everything is still there on the FTP end of things.

I want to reiterate, because I personally haven't done it enough yet, that I kinda liked A4. I just didn't like its plot. (Several others have said this, too.) Tullegolar, you said that you felt sorry for those of us who couldn't "read between the lines." There's a very big difference between "reading between the lines" and "making stuff up." You can make up a very exciting story about Rentar and her motives on the basis of A4. So can I. However, A4 doesn't give us that information. A4 doesn't make us care. I don't want to sit down and have tea with Rentar, but some sort of exposition — a note left behind in a dungeon/fortress, a conversation with a few of her former associates, some talk with other high-ranking vahnatai — would be nice. To be fair, Jeff does some of this. Rentar leaves behind a message for you at the trap. I think you have a conversation with her once or twice more. But that's it. In the entire darn game. For a main villain, she says next to nothing! If the whole game is going to be about defeating Rentar-Ihrno — one quest, not three like A1 or A2, not six like A3, with no real artifact quests to speak of — then I'd like Rentar-Ihrno to get a little more dialogue! I have yet to play a Blades scenario with a really compelling villain, as far as I can recall, but they exist. Alcritas made a few, I suspect. And I have no doubt that these compelling villains get a few more lines than Rentar does, or at least a little more description of their motives, their background, and their struggles. Their struggles! A really compelling villain is one with whom we can identify at least to some extent, whether you're talking about Satan from Paradise Lost or Cartman from South Park. A great villain presents a sympathetic case, a compelling argument, something that we can latch onto and say, "That could be me!" Rentar is just crazed. We can't agree with her. We have no reason to.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Rentar was constantly struggling with the values of her people versus the actual consensus of them. She felt she had a duty to avenge the crystal souls, but when she realized she had gone to far, her honor would not allow her to turn back. She had to constantly deal with her new crusade, which was all she had left, while at the same time be torn up inside by the fact that her own people did not support her. Where does this appear in the game? One character tells us this. That's it. Our only glimpses into Rentar's motivations were a couple of characters talking about her (and it's only a "couple" when you add one in A3 and one in A4). They say these things, but they're under-emphasized (mentioned once and never elaborated). We need more to care. In games as large as A2, A3, and A4, if Rentar is going to be the major, defining character, I'd expect a lot more information than we actually got: why does she feel stronger about crystal souls than everyone else? Why were so many of the vahnatai in apparent agreement with her at the end of A3 (disappearing), yet so few agree with her in A4? Why did it take her so darn long to start to take her revenge in A3, and why didn't she show any signs of being so angry in A2? What happened in that intervening time? At least some additional information needs to be given in order for Rentar not to appear to be a completely unsympathic and uncomplicated lunatic. And in no way does her "struggle" over values affect the party or the plotline: in A3, the whole point was that the game would have been 95% the same if Erika, the dragons, or some other interchangeable villain had done it. In A4, surprisingly, much the same is true: very little of A4 would have to change if suddenly Garzahd was behind it instead of Rentar.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: The plagues of monsters plot is the ideal plot for the style in which Jeff does his games. Nethergate is a community favorite, especially among those who complain about A3/A4. I really liked A3, and I sorta liked A4, but purely on the level of plot and atmosphere, Nethergate beats the stuffing out of the last two Avernums. (A3 and A4 do other things well, but not, as far as I'm concerned, main plot.) Nethergate doesn't have monster plagues. A2 also fares pretty well without much in the way of the monster plague motif. Quote: Few games can pull of using the same end boss twice in a row, but Avernum 3 and 4 did it. Rentar is up there with Diablo and Ganondorf as one of the greatest bosses of all time. Rentar isn't even that good a character. I mean, what do we actually know about her? She's powerful and angry. That's about as 1-D as it comes. R-I coming back was my single biggest plot gripe about A4. However, I feel compelled to remind myself, having plot gripes about A4 means that I kind of missed the point. A4 was designed to have good combat and a passable plot that wouldn't get in the way of the hacking. It certainly accomplished that.

What, are we counting utilities and unreleased scenarios?

Alec has the E2 ones.

These are the graphics, but I think you need to muck with them to get them to work in Exile 1 v2.0. EDIT: To anyone who's coming to this some years later, I've removed the broken links. New links are on the next page in the same topic. They're also at my website, the link to which is in my signature. E2 graphics are just below this post.

This was Drakey's scenario.