alhoon

I met... an infernal. One that has, for a change, not being summoned by a Shaper but decided to simply show up to hunt other infernals. 

However, I have already beaten the Bound One, before she gave me that stick of hers. 

Did I lose part of the quest? 

3 minutes ago, l33tmaan said:

To be fair, most governments don't want to be creating cool dungeons full of awesome loot for random people to stumble into. Apparently shapers are totally into that.

Awesome loot and dangerous monsters and/or gases and substances and if the Shapers catch you with some of that loot, they kill you. 

Just now, oceanes said:

If Rhakkus or Eass snapped, they would likely band together to fix the problem. 

Haven't reached that part of the endings yet, but ... doesn't one of them snap at the end? 

5 minutes ago, oceanes said:

one is how many eggs they are willing to break to make their Omelet of Liberation, and the other is whether they have it in them to do the job the Shapers did,

And those are very big issues, because: 

- They are willing to break too many eggs

- Geneforge. In fact we know from GF4 and GF5 that the Drakons don't bring total obliteration, that there are more moderate voices in there and that those voices can eventually win. 

We do not know that in GF2. We don't know what the factions that survive the coming war will believe and how their beliefs would morph.

We don't know yet whether 10 years down the road the Drakons, mad from the Geneforge, would decide humans (common or shaper) should not exist. 

And it is a chance I am increasingly willing to Take. It is just that I like the Awakened much much more, although I don't think they have a real shot to win. Sure, they may get their stalemate and they may (although I really doubt it) eventually become free from the Shapers albeit in a cold war, rogue nation kind of state, freeing a few serviles here and there from the Shaper lands.

But that is not the victory I want; that leaves the Shaper Empire as it is, with just a few mountains less. It leaves Millions of serviles as slaves. It leaves the crimes of the Shapers unpunished. 

In our world, if a computer scientist trying to make a new antivirus releases a bugged program that burns the company's main-frame and a few dozen terminals, he would be brought to justice for his mistake, paying fines and losing his job. 

A doctor that does a serious error and kills a patience will lose his license and may go to jail.

Shapers would simply board up the facility, put a "do not enter" outside and send a guardian every 10 years to clean whatever mess escapes from there. 

I met a bunch of Sholai camped out of a mine. Seemed all nice, explorers and peaceful. Then, I check their warriors and they are beasts-of-war of 18th level. So, apparently the Sholai in Sucia were already well-trained warriors before they got cannistered. For a peaceful expedition, they do have a lot of highly skilled guards.

Then, I find from Rook the Servile that theorizes Takers kill Inutile (I hope not) that the Sholai from Sucia managed to escape despite them having no ship, probably by repairing their ship before the Shapers arrived in force after you eliminate Trakjov.  And they brought Rook with them.

And their nice and polite and awestruck boss doesn't tell me where the main camp is and where their captain is. 😑 
If Lying Zackary the Deceiver taught me something is to be suspicious of strangers that evade answers and give platitudes.

Yu-La: "I wanted to trade with you and learn your language" 

Really Yu-La? Cause I found very very few Sholai willing to trade with me if I was not a Taker. In fact, they were positively unfriendly... Trading with rogue Drayks and Taker Serviles is not the same as want to trade with Shapers. 

The Sholai really misinterpret the situation. Those are not rose-tinted glasses, that is downright hilarious misdirection. 

And a puresteel bar. She has a Puresteel bar for sale. 

On 4/19/2024 at 1:07 AM, JDubkins said:

• You said "We are shown evidence the Shapers do [sic] cultural genocide (lost languages, lost traditions)," but there's no such evidence that they do any such thing. Languages and traditions may be lost after generations of assimilation, but there's no moral culpability for the Shaper Empire for that loss.
• You could make an assumption that cultural practices that were at odds with Shaper law would have been eradicated, but the culture itself would be allowed to persist aside from that practice. We know that necromancy, for example, is a banned practice, so if that had been a religious element of a culture, it follows that the Shapers would demand an end to that aspect of their culture. That's perfectly in line with the express purpose of the Shaper Empire: to control dangerous magic.
• What we actually do see in the game, now, is that some of these cultures were extra-valued within their assimilation for what they brought to the table... Like a skill for providing the crystals that are needed for high-level Shaping research. This can only be viewed as a good thing.

What I see is: 

"Were allowed to exist in some minor form."  Those that the Shapers considered to have value for them. 
 

As for Empires and assimilation of conquered people, that's not entirely true. A great many empires did or attempt to do Assimilation or in some cases, cultural genocide. Others did not. The British held India from 1773 to 1947 and while they are far from perfect, they move against the great many and diverse Indian cultures at least not as long as those cultures and their practices were not in open opposition. In the Americas and parts of Australia, the British did do cultural genocide. In Latin America, the Spanish assimilated the locals but many of the local traditions, cultures and even languages remain despite being under the influence of the Spanish Empire for centuries. 

What we are shown here and in GF5, is that the Shapers kinda like the USSR, actively try to impose a monoculture and bring assimilation and in some cases (like the evil ghost-king in GF5 or actually in those tombs in GF2) they eradicated the culture by killing everyone.  

And the Assimilation didn't "happen"; it was forced. Those that were not completely absorbed were allowed to exist. Something that may change if a Shaper wakes up cranky one day and decides they had had enough of those weirdo crystal-mages. 

The Power corrupts thing:
It hits me in this game more than other GF games. I mean, my own corruption thanks to power. After I found the super-awesome Shaper Robes from Sharon's closet (she wears hers, those are totally spare that she can live without), my Drakons are 20th level and my Drayks are 19th level. 

I walked into Gerth. I saw the turrets. I saw the "stupid, obeying Serviles" and "return to the Norm". I checked levels of guards and turrets and I can wipe the place clean. I am struggling to not do just that, say "Screw it" to the story and my mission to find and sabotage the Radiant College (which should certainly be  much harder to purge than Geth, so I have to be diplomatic) and start killing Barzhite soldiers, turrets and creations with abandon. 

I have to think of aaaaall the loot I have in my pockets that I need merchants with money to sell. Of the seer pleasure of turning Barzhal's machinery to scrap metal so that the Creations raise up. I have to think that the Obeyer Serviles will be caught in the crossfire even though they did nothing wrong. 

But man, I am itching to go out and start killing Shapers and Barzhites. I have had it with their ways. Every zone is a horrible reminder that they should be torn to pieces and we should wage a serious war against them. I swear if I had the option, I would throw an Unbound on Gerth and let it eat everything. 

...

Perhaps I need to rethink my faction affiliation. I strongly dislike the Takers for how they treat those that disagree with them - and I am pretty much the same when it comes to Shapers / Barzhites. I dislike the Takers but I hate the Shapers / Barzhites. 

I will have to hear what Syros has to say... I am conflicted. 

EDIT: Oh, I am not allowed to trade in Gerth... buddies, your usefulness is severely reduced. 

6 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

Every single named Obeyer that returns in G2 is now Awakened, I believe.

Could it be that the few Obeying Obeyers stayed with the Barzhites? 

5 hours ago, BloomingLilac said:

 

Thanks for your comments. If you hadn't posted, I don't know if I would've reloaded. It turns out that I didn't have enough leadership to complete the smart servile quest. I remember talking to her a few times, but the option to threaten her didn't show up. It worked today with 3 points. I learned to create an artila and completed the quest to find the source of the rogues. Now, I'm level 4!

While, at least early game, investing in more than one Shaping paths is not too expensive, it is suboptimal. What I mean is that it is much better for you to focus on one tree and increase that and get creations and canisters for that. 

3 hours ago, MJgreg86 said:

not entirely. code lines i found using cheat engine permanently change the creation level throughout the duration of the game play. never resetting to what it should be or to a default. the level change and stats along with that level change remain and can be adjusted accordingly. as exp and abilities. if ones creation has abilities that arent ideal and can be changed as well. even from a save where cheat engine was used, restart without cheat engine and remains for entire duration of game play still.. 

 

also works the same for any recruitable character interacted with that will join. 

I was not aware for that, I don't use the cheat engine.

I was referring to simple scripting. If you add or replace an ability to a Creation with scrips, that stays for the game. If you change stats with a script, that stays for the game. If you change the level with scripts... it doesn't. In previous games it would change too. But I assumed since creations now level up only with your stats, which could go up at any time, even if you don a piece of armor, that the game was checking all the time. 

13 minutes ago, Val Ritz said:

If I'm spitballing, I think any remaining serviles with strong Obeyer tendencies would have gone to the Barzite lands. It gives them the chance to admit that they're different from other serviles, while still directly serving a "real Shaper." Issue being, it didn't take much canister use for Barzahl and his buddies to discard their sympathies for the serviles. To pull a phrase from the G1 ending, they'd find themselves "ill-used," and ten years is plenty of time for the most loyal to die in lab accidents or gazer testing or what have you. Because we can always make more, right?

Barzhal had "servile sympathies" ? Lying Zackary the Deceiver saved a little servile Kid from obliteration. Barzhal? I don't remember anything at all he ever did for the Serviles. I think he was always about himself - not even about Zackary and himself. He planned to use Lying Zackary the Deceiver from the start; at first for his connections and experience and then as a front. 

Are Agents seriously easier than Guardians? 

As for stun-locks for Agent, early game you have 2 free creations that you can get with leadership. Then, even if expensive, you could afford to raise a bit one Shaper class and get a decent creation. Then, you could rush and grab Xander which is quite decent at level 12. 

21 hours ago, Superdeath25 said:

Litalia is possibly the most horrible human in all of Terrestria .  Litalia was one of the reasons I sided with the Shapers in Geneforge 3.  In Geneforge 5, I have no problem killing her without provocation and only regret that I don't have the option to brag about it to General Alwan 

Litalia is irrevocably mad. Turning to a Trakovite in no way made her more sane. It just turned the Trakovites under her to a bunch of very dangerous madmen. 
She is tolerated because the Drakons are not aware of how dangerous she is and because Ghaldring doesn't allow the Drakons to kill Litalia. 

That said, Litalia is a deep character that I really liked. 
Litalia made it very hard for me to side with the Rebels in GF3. And the rest of the Rebels didn't make it much easier. I mean, you meet her after she mass murdered your friends and teachers. 

Well, I understand that. But the fight is tough for level 3. The Crystal cave will also be absolutely brutal on you. Theoretically, you can make it, but it won't be easy. Also, did you have Zora with you? The battle roar is great. 

25 minutes ago, BloomingLilac said:

 

I believe I was level 3.

 

Ah, that seems to be the problem.

At level 4-5 you should have been fine. 

OH MY GOD!!!! 
Have you guys seen the Shaper robe?!?!?! 

I don't think there is any artifact in the game that can beat that. 

About the Takers not attacking the Awakened: It is not "a drayk and a few serviles". 
It is an army of Takers that has taken over the Western Part of the Awakened lands (the swamp) and is strangling Troia.  The Awakened are under a complete siege by the Takers. 

Is there a way to save Alpha Amuz, the Alpha trapped in the swamps near the Taker lands? I can get him to help me clear the area, I can get him to kill himself as if he's a weak-willed servant mind, but I don't see any option to tell him to live free. Or to go join the Awakened. Or even to go back to the Takers. 

This is not a rogue Alpha like the others that went mad. It is an alpha without orders that sits scared in a swamp, afraid of "the voices" that tell it to go rogue (and I am told in a text soon after that alphas that go rogue go completely mad) 

That said: 
For a Faction that talks so much about the Creation Freedoms, the Takers are quite bad to the Alphas. That Alpha is not a dog, it is a creation that can talk. Sure, sure, Alphas are not the smartest of creations but it is a sentient creature. 

If you invest ONLY in one type of Shaping and Essence mastery, then yes, most battles won't be hard. But you wouldn't be able to open half the locks or talk to people. And blessing magic is IMO, a must for a Shaper. 

Agents are supposed to be somewhat harder to play, I think. 

1 hour ago, BloomingLilac said:

I did notice wine was added for healing. Toward the end of the demo, I was trying to kill the withered roamer and lost all but one of my creations, then it spawned 3-4 artilas. (I'll have to load the original game to check, but I don't remember AoE spells damaging my party on hard difficulty.) With one healing pod and no spores, I may have to lower the difficulty or keep reloading. My fyoras were doing 2-7 damage. Thahds were having to walk so far that they couldn't attack. I had one point in stealth, but combat initiates from very long distances. Sometimes enemies weren't visible without moving the screen.

I think you shouldn't be having such a hard time. Do you mind telling the optimizing-specialists here what you have, what are your strengths and all, so they could find the path forward for you?

5 hours ago, JDubkins said:

 

This seems like a hyperbolic misinterpretation of both Shaper ideology and societal structure. If you don't mind, I'd love to play the part of Shaper apologist... or propagandist. You can decide.

 

Oh, I did! [Assume an emoticon of an angry looking drayk carrying a torch]

1. I mostly disagree with some of your points. First, I do agree the Shapers delude themselves by thinking themselves the Greatest good. I also agree on their non-desire to rule. In fact, we meet an Agent in GF4 (or is it GF5) that is very annoyed that she has to hear complains from people and actually rule. 
Then I partially (and not completely) disagree with other parts of this thesis. 
I disagree on the taxation part; we do see that, especially in Drypeak. People are effectively serfs, tied to the land to support a colony that is on purpose doing bad. Geneforge 3 also has the swamp farmers that were getting sick in the swamp gathering things for Shapers to do their research. Geneforge 4 has the wartime production that is taking its toll on the Common. Etc. 

"And if they want to pursue magic, even Shaping, there are non-exclusive avenues for that, until your own (lack of) skill or (in)competence disqualifies you." This is also wrong. There is a miniscule chance you would be allowed to be a Shaper and the reason to be disqualified is lack of Loyalty. The common pursue magic - to the point the Shapers allow them. We see that in later games where a loyal mage is refused further magic knowledge. 

I do agree that Shapers are not materialistic; they do have bigger homes and luxuries but they are not like the nobility of the renaissance with the huge castles and tons of servants. However, that doesn't change the fact that this is not unique for a ruling caste. Theocratic leaders very often are like that. 
The ambition of the Shapers is not to have a huge house and live in obscene luxury. Simply put there is less "income inequality" than you saw in feudalism or oligarchies but that doesn't apply just to the Shapers. 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand... I need to go. But I plan to return to the later parts. 

4 hours ago, Val Ritz said:

Yeah, it's one of the real tragedies of Sucia Island we don't get to see. The way events shook out, the Council wasn't interested in any intelligent, but compliant serviles. Final Sanction was invoked; everything on that island needed to burn.

 

Dayna (formerly Learned Dayna) is the story that really breaks my heart. Her whole life, devoted to preserving what amounted to outdated and useless warehouse inventories, on the off-chance it might please the Shapers. Not only did she learn her purpose was a lie, but the ones she idolized saw her as anathema.

yeap, I read that story. But I assumed SOME Obeyers would exist along the Awakened. 

4 hours ago, Broken Mind said:

I feel bad, because no matter how pro-servile I am in GF1, I always lie and tell her those notes are important (even knowing otherwise) just so that she will buy them. I don't even need money in that game, and I still do it.

Me too!!! I couldn't tell her the truth! I let them waste what precious resources they have in thinking that this is important because there's not a neutral way, of "Ohh, how great! You did very well. Now, as a Shaper I will quickly peruse those very precious notes you kept, and decide what is too dangerous to be kept, what is outdated and what you should keep and preserve. Here is a cookie!" 
Then, I would burn most of the crap, but leave 3-4 boxes of stuff so she keeps feeling important. I would tell her how much better things are now for me the Shaper because of the accurate numbers of potatoes we brought from the mainland 142 years ago and that their vigil will help bring peace to the Island, but unfortunately, some things would need to burn. 
 

22 minutes ago, JohnD19723 said:

Playing as a Shaper, I do feel having more creation at zero upgrade has a better outcome than spending essence on upgrades of fewer creations.

yes, but at one point you run out of slots. 
Since I am not at that level, instead of buying up Fire Shaping to give my creations +1 level, I bought Mastery so I can afford another drakon. 

BTW, I just noticed: where are the obeyers in GF2? (O-GF2 or GF2-I) ? I don't mean the servants, I mean fully smart and aware Serviles that agree with the Shapers that they should remain enslaved. You know, the biggest Servile faction of GF1-M, where we're told that more than half the Serviles in Sucia are Obeyers. 

First time I played GF2, I hadn't played GF1 so I didn't know of the obeyers. 

Now I go around and I talk to Serviles that are foolish and don't know better. Not Shapers that choose to be "Servants" and are even ready to kill other Serviles over this. 

I understand that with the Shapers around, most Obeyers would be dead - as they were still considered rogues. But in GF1-M, there were a couple of Obeyers that were Awakened and changed their mind. 

I have seen just one "Obeying-leaning Awakened" that when you talk to him and ask something he (or she? I don't remember) goes "Yes Shaper, I will Obey." The ones that are happy to see you and run to you are those that are cornered in mines or swamps by a dozen Rogues, about to die.

And I have not seen a single Servant Servile that is actually smart, able to talk properly and is willingly a Servant (i.e. an Obeyer). 

Will the Nice lady be angry with me for being an Awakened? Also, that nice lady will probably die when I purge every last Barzhite that draws breath. So, I will kindly take her restoration spores to help me butcher her and her friends.