alhoon

23 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Raw Adaptable Spores can be used with healing pods to make restoration pods or with healing spores to make restoration spores.  The limitation in the game is the number of raw adaptable spores so you should be able to find plenty healing pods, healing spores, and wine.

Wine? 

Can I make those, or do I need an alchemist? like the person Slawbug mentioned? 
Also, where can I find her? I hope she is not a Servant... 

I found the tomb of Rydell in Ellirah's tomb. Wasn't he the boss of the Obeyers in GF1-M? Did he come to light after the Shapers purged them all? From what I remember from my discussions with Rydell - and the horrible HORRIBLE book he had, Rydell would simply accept death, if the Shapers said so. The book he had, I still remember, had something like his deepest and most "selfish" wish is for a Shaper to tell him he has done well. That was it: No money, power, comfort. Nope. A Shaper to pat him on the head and tell him "good boy" as if he was a dog. 
Thus, I am very surprised to see his tomb as "Came to wisdom too late". I simply didn't expect him to ever do. 
 

Khobar died... in the "long March". 😢I liked Khobar. 
Dreet... probably was someone I should remember. I don't. 

I have also encountered Eko Blade and the Obeyer that was in charge of preserving the worthless notes in Sucia. 
Obviously, Pinner is in GF2-I too. 

Anyone else? 

31 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

Learned Versa uses them, notably to turn Healing Spores into Restoration Spores, which is pretty great.

 

I don't believe the bushes ever replenish.

O_O

And I have been selling ALL my healing spores.

Raw adaptable spores: Are they needed for anything after the Servile hermit tells you about the shield he can make for you? He told me other Alchemists may want them and they are pretty expensive... 

Also, do thorn bushes and spore bushes ever replenish? 

13 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

 

Infestation didn't add that.  It was present in the original.  A few more people comment on it, but it was already described by a couple of them, and it already had a different ending.

I think that was the ending more close to what we learn in GF3. 

On the Takers vs All Shapers: 

It is apparently not always so: 

I think these were around in the O-GF2 too. Anyway. 

- The Awakened didn't notice a bunch of Takers setting up camp next to their town.
Which I can't 100% blame the Awakened, considering where this camp is, but on the other hand, they are trying to stop the Takers from burning Troia to the ground so ... it is great negligence anyway (Also, as for the Takers don't attack Awakened; this is like the 3rd group of Takers I found besieging Troia, and I haven't gone to the fort nearby then, nor I count the brigands that poor Eko Blade was running with. The ones with the plan to bring a bunch of Infernals to purge the world from my kind.) Eko was a Taker. I liked Eko. But I think he counts as "ex-Taker" in this case; he still wants to fight the Shapers but he turned to something ... different than geneforge and all. I do not blame him, mind you. It is insanely risky to consort with those Infernals, obviously, but is it less risky than a geneforge? I don't know. The Takers seek power to stop the Shapers, and Shapers fear the Infernals. And for a very good reason from the Infernal I saw... 

- The Takers do not attack you on sight. That was O_O surprise for me. I remember cutting through an army of Takers till I managed to speak to one. These Takers are actually willing to talk to a Shaper instead of Take their Free. And mind you, a Shaper which they (rightfully) assume is an Awakened. Even when I lie to them that I am a Taker but don't have that token, they are still not attacking me, just not letting me... in their tiny camp. 
Honestly, those are "rogue" Takers by Taker standards. They claim the name, they don't hold the conviction. They are brigands, plain and simple, that used to be Takers. 

And yet... they don't attack me. I have leadership 7. I told them to back off, they didn't but they still didn't attack me, when I showed by "True Colors" of being an evil Shaper that would threaten Creations. 

Cowardice? Perhaps. But these are "the moderate Takers" I was talking about. 

Is Queen's Wish 3 the next game to be made after GF2-I? 

5 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

It would be interesting if news about Sharon finds its way into the G3 remake somehow.

Isn't a very old Shaper in Geneforge 4, in the Shaper camp? Where you can confuse that old lady to Shape you for a +1 spellcraft, by basically telling her it is not really shaping but "unlocking potential"? 

Khyrrik would probably let her be. And throwing her to the Ashen Isles to do menial work like supervising the growth of plants and batons/mines as a punishment for her running away would be fitting. 
We should learn to make real Vlish from her. Not the ones we have here, the real Vlish of GF3-era. The real Vlish should be extremely useful for their essence cost. 

I have a Drakon and 2 Drayks in my party, I am 12th level and I still pause when I see Vlish and check their level and approach carefully. It is ingrained in me now after GF3-5 and the massacre of the Vlish fields outside the Obeyer Village in Mutagen. 

Meh, now I feel bad for brutally killing him... 

4 hours ago, Slawbug said:

The Shaper Council would call Sharon disloyal, maybe, but that's their definition of loyalty, and not even a universal cultural judgment among Shapers, let alone anyone else.

That is what Sharon thinks, at least. We can't be sure that the Council would kill her for running away.
Lying Zackary the Deceiver, Shanti and other Shapers are more sympathetic to Sharon. Shanti would rat Sharon out, but it seems to be no animosity or malice there. And while the Shapers are still in absolute control in GF2, by GF3, I doubt the Shaper Council would come down on Sharon like a wall of bricks. They would tell her that "in the old days" she would be severely punished but she would probably get away with a slap in the hand and a demotion - as long as she returned to work.  

5 hours ago, earanhart said:

Do we? Rebel Shaper. Disloyal Shaper. Taker Shaper. Trajkovite Shaper. 

Rebel Shaper: Lifecrafter

Taker Shaper: Lifecrafter

Trajkovite Shaper: Mage that could, theoretically Shape. 

Disloyal Shaper: Shaper 

We could argue terminology and splitting hairs all day. The point I think we try to raise is "do you understand what we mean, not the Shaper Council, not the Takers" mean? 

I think what "neutral Shaper" or "Ex-Shaper" means in the context of this discussion is "Someone that was once trained by the Shapers, that can Shape but is not-aligned to the Shaper council any more but has not joined the Rebels either." 

Neutral may not be the right term, but it is easier to write than the entire sentence. 

6 hours ago, Slawbug said:

In G2 you're definitely a graduate.  You're just still dealing with a practicum before you can get full licensure 😛  The G1 and G3 PCs are at earlier points in their training.

Ah, I see. For us, you don't graduate until you finish the Practicum and defend the thesis you write about it. We call it "Diploma Thesis" but it is not just the thesis, you also have to do a few months of work (similar to an intern) while supervised and guided by a Supervisor. That's before you can graduate and it feels very much what the PC is going through. GF2 PC is also called "Apprentice" by everyone that knows, which to me seems like "under-grad"

GF1 PC had finished his or her studies and was on his way to start the practical work of his thesis. For my Diploma thesis, back when I was an undergrad, I was went to a small remote island to gather some data with a GPS (back before they were on phones etc) so I could use that data to geolocate aerial photos (back before the drones). 

GF3 PC is at his senior year IIRC. Not yet ready.

5 hours ago, Val Ritz said:

Exactly! And to contrast, it feels like Zensital is maybe a year ahead of where you are in G2. He's got the ornk-in-the-headlights vibe of someone whose life is no longer on degree program rails, but who hasn't been picked up to be part of a research team.

Considering he is out of his apprentiship and you would theoretically be out of yours in a few months, I would say probably 6 months to a year ahead of you.

I would say he is even before the "hasn't been picked up" part and more in the immediate-after-graduation dilemma of "Where do I apply for a job or M.Sc?" And from our students, I can tell you that this may take several months. 

18 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

You talked to Brodus Blade back in Freegate and East Medab.

No, Brodus was absolutely sane. Was Eko Blade in Mutagen perhaps? Perhaps I remember him from there. 

I am in the bandit cave, of the Thee. 

I see... Eko Blade as auto-hostile. For the life of me, I thought that I have talked with Eko Blade in the past.

21 hours ago, OnnySwackyMallyPonce said:

Hi, been replaying this after restoring my old computer and enjoying greatly. Decided to have a crack at the Trakovite storyline, just about managed to release the shredbugs and make a break for it out of the secret labs, but when I go back to the Trakovite Haven, there is no option when speaking to Litalia to let her know and advance the story. I've gone back to the secret labs to check and there are shredbugs roaming around the place, so they are definitely released. Am I missing something?

 

Edit: please ignore, just noticed in mission screen I have to go talk to Astoria first!

Yeap. You don't have to just crush the budding, tender, reluctant peace-dealings between Astoria and the Rebellion, or to trash the food production with insanely destructive and also dangerous pests. 

You also have to stomp Astoria's spirit under your blood-soaked boots. 

And the missions get worse. Litalia's Trakovites are the worst kind of Terrorists that I have seen in Geneforge, and I include shaping the Unbound there. 

A quick reminder that Litalia was gunning to kill Trakovites in GF4, when the other Rebels thought they were not a priority and they should be left alone for the time. 

6 hours ago, earanhart said:

If anything bad happens to Emily (to include heavy alteration, amnesia, or Rawal) I will kill everyone on this forum and then myself!

Welcome to the Takers, brother. 

52 minutes ago, Val Ritz said:

that awkward, gawky, undergraduate period between being a wide-eyed apprentice and an overworked and undersupervised research

That's not an undergrad; that's a post-grad student you are describing.

You are an undergrad as a wide-eyed apprentice that knows very little aside of what he needs to start Shaping, undergoing his thesis defense under Shanti. It just so happens that your "Thesis Defense" means you have to literally defend your stance, with a bunch of Tier-4 creations. The "Opponent" isn't asking questions, it's three to four different armies going against you. 

25 minutes ago, earanhart said:

 

From the Takers viewpoint (not the Rebels, specifically the Takers) it's not a terminology thing. Even their traitor Shapers are still Shapers. People with the power to create and enslave Creations. This isn't semantics. The Takers hate the Shapers who join them. 

Not true. 

The Takers create "people with the power to create and enslave creations". Through the Geneforge. Lifecrafters are "people with the power to create and enslave creations" they just choose not to. 

1 hour ago, Slawbug said:

That's not just Tuldaric; every sect head trainer operates that way.  Tyallea, Tuldaric, Burham, Salgurdar.  They just need you to be modified.

Tyallea requires orders from Lying Zackary the Deceiver before she opens up to teach you everything on the menu. I haven't met the other too. 

41 minutes ago, oceanes said:

True. I suppose it depends on what context you are looking at it from. Sucia had no humans on it, so in its genesis, it was ideological, but when put in a broader Terrestrian context it became ethno-nationalist to some extent, as few humans were willing to go as far as the Takers were, initially, and the fact that the Shapers had already delineated a division between humans and creations.

The Rebels are closer to the Takers, they are not the Takers. The Rebellion has many factions. The Takers being one of them. The Drakon nationalists you talk about are not bona-fide Takers. The Takers are about defeating the Shapers for revenge/justice or for their right to survive.

17 minutes ago, oceanes said:

Also, it's likely that they didn't realize the mental effects of Self-Shaping until after they'd already done it, as it's implied that attempts to Shape a human using the traditional methods always ended in messy deaths, for obvious reasons. After the change of course, Danette and the others were incapable of seeing the drawback of what they'd done.

The reason self-shaping is banned is not the accident rates - which is not that bad. It is you become a madman with too much power. The Shapers are big on learning slowly and being evaluated before you learn more. We see that with the Servants, where Lying Zackary the Deceiver has you learn the magic for a few Creations before you join, at which point he clears you for more training. 

The Awakened do not attempt to bar you; Carnelian can't teach you much because she's not that powerful. Tuldaric on the other hand goes the ... ??? way and teaches you everything for average price.

If I remember the other sects correct, the Barzhites are actually pushing you to go fast in your training (canisters). The Takers are more reserved towards a Shaper from what I remember but it is clear they also share knowledge very freely. 

To go back to Tuldaric, his way of teaching is bizarre; I had a drakon in the party from level 9. He just goes "OK" and teaches you everything without any quest. That you are Awakened seems good enough to him. Quite irresponsible, if you ask me.

Who brought half a dozen infernals here? Why? It's not like they have some big secret. We already know Shaping here. 

6 minutes ago, earanhart said:

I'm not certain Taygen was faced with that ultimatum. I'm convinced he BELIEVED he was. There's a difference, and history would brand him a villain

beyond redemption or a heroic monster in hindsight.

Nah, the GF5 endings make it clear that history branded him as a villain, not a heroic monster. 

8 minutes ago, earanhart said:

From the Taker mindset, how much do you want to hope that The Last Shaper doesn't decide to go full Taygen or worse in desperation?

It is not just that. That Last Shaper, in most Taker eyes, deserves death as punishments for a lifetime of crimes. 

8 hours ago, Slawbug said:

They aren't willing to leave neutral Shapers alive, though.  Even sympathetic Shapers who stop short of actually joining the Rebellion -- see, yet again, Khyryk!  They're just making exceptions to genocide when it's convenient for them.  That's something else that's happened in historical real-world genocides.

I agree.

I am just comparing them To Taygen that didn't make those exceptions. Taygen's genocide was unparalleled in history for its efficiency. Enough to push even the Shapers to admit that perhaps the Trakovites have some point. 

8 hours ago, Val Ritz said:

Steering away from litigating the definition of genocide, if we take Shaper policy and Shaper law at its word, there is no such thing as a neutral Shaper. Every Shaper is expected and required to do whatever is necessary to eradicate rogue creations--whether that means feral fyora or intelligent serviles. Someone like Sharon, who just wants to live in peace without contributing to Shaper hegemony, is breaking the law by retiring. Once you learn the Shaping arts, you're in until you die. If you asked the Council, Khyryk's attitude constitutes possibly criminal negligence.

 

One of the roots of the ideological difference between the Takers and the Awakened is this: the Takers are responding to the Shapers as they are, while the Awakened are dealing with them as they hope they could become.

Sharon expected to be punished when found out and when the illegal Shaping started she expected to be executed for her negligence. 

Khyryk ... I don't remember but in GF4, Trakovites are executed by gibbeting, letting them to die from starvation hanging from a cage. The Shapers are not tolerant of the Trakovites. 

The Rebels, with the exception of Litalia in GF4 (Lololol) are kinda-tolerant to the Trakovites; most consider them fools and only Litalia hunts them down as dangerous ideology (again, lol). 

5 hours ago, Slawbug said:

Yes, and yet, Sharon and Khyryk exist.  Why the heck would the Takers, of all people, privilege Shaper policy over the actions of an individual?

Khyryk is targeted when he is still a sitting Shaper lord though; I don't think they target him in GF4. Unless I remember wrong (and I very well could be), only Litalia wants him dead in GF4, not Greta.

That said, your point is again correct: The Takers do not make exceptions for any Shaper that is not on their side. The Rebels may do, but the Rebels are not Takers, they are "Takers and Friends" and it is mostly the "and friends" that are willing to do the exceptions. 

I understand why the Takers (or even the Rebels) would label even ex-Shapers as the enemy. That doesn't make it right though. 

Ah, Taygen... Taygen doesn't do half-measures. The Takers are willing to leave some friendly Shapers and when they form the Great Rebellion, Shapers that change sides (Litalia, Greta, the player character, etc) are tolerated or even elevated depending on how far they go. 

Taygen? Taygen even kills the batons, the living tools, the doors. He sends the Shapers to the dark age. 

I also completely agree that "They are out to get uuuuuuuuuuus!!!!" has been used to justify genocide since time immemorial, way before the word genocide was invented 100 years ago. Another very common trope to justify genocide is "they did it first!!" / "Juuusticeeee!!!"  

See the Rwandan Genocide that started as retaliation by the Hutu against the Tutsi. 

That said: I am still not convinced the Awakened way leads to anything but a prolonged stalemate that is doomed to end in a collapse 30, 50, 100 years after the game ends. But I will have to reach the ending to find out. And I am still at level 11. 

And in the case of the Drayks and Drakons? They are right. The Shapers are out to get them.