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alhoon

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Posts posted by alhoon

  1. While I don't mind, I wouldn't think a guardian's ghost would act with that glee. Something more like "as the shade diminishes, you see a hint of a smile. The last words before the shade dissipates are 'thank you'. Only his sword remains behind and you can feel the power of this weapon." 

    You see, there is no guarantee that the person killing that guardian is a guardian. A shaper would have little need of that sword. 

  2. 14 hours ago, Superdeath25 said:

    With this kind of editing tool, you pave the way for one could make their own Geneforge game.  Now that the series has long ended, maybe one day it could go the route of the Freespace games and be continued through custom made games that either fill gaps between games, go back to the origins of Shapers, or have games that continue after 5 as unofficial sequels.  It could even have a Knossos like database called The Gameforge

    I agree and I am slowly working on a big mod. However, game and story design requires more than just an awesome level editor. 

  3. 11 hours ago, Superdeath25 said:

    I will probably still post, but I do wish there were more commentators here. It appears the Spiderweb Forums gets less activity than the Hardlight Forums where I post about Freespace related stuff.  I don't see as much variety in responders here.  

    Well you could give a spin to the forums and invite your friends in, if they have played the games. If they haven't, Summer is a good opportunity to inform them about the games. 

  4. Can't you save the dialog box in the journal in GF2? I forget. 

     

    Or you mean there's no kill dialogue? I am pretty sure there's kill dialogue for some NPCs. I wouldn't take a vow, but I seem to recall there is. 

  5. 3 hours ago, Sudanna said:

    It is best to find synchronicity between the game mechanics and the narrative, rather than deliberately separate them.

     

    As Slarty has wisely said to me back when I made more or less the same argument, 

    "The game mechanics in Geneforge very, very rarely do a good job of reflecting the nuances of the world.  If they did, let's face it, the Ashen Isles would have been overrun by Vlish..." 
    (Shamelessly stolen from @Triumph's signature). 

     

    GF1:M does a much better job with the Control of creations, but we're still a long way to go. 

  6. To be honest, most of these questions have answers. And while there is the option to create a creature in a vat to make it more docile, better and imbue it with more essence through time OR to create it immediately,  the spawner creation, essence through rest, and non-speaking drayks are... because of game reasons. That's game mechanics. 

    As for people can train creations to obey, it's the same reason people can train dogs to obey: they know how and they have time. 

    If the PC was with a few fyoras for 3-4 months, he would get them to obey him. But that wouldn't reach the level of a Shaper direct mental control of a creation. 

  7. Sudanna: You forgot one of the most glaring questions that plague me since I started playing GF games: 
    "How many Shapers have prostate problems, since the labs have no bathrooms and to get out to do your business you have to walk several minutes and clear several sealed doors, deactivate traps etc."  

  8. 1 hour ago, JDubkins said:

    Find me one scenario where those in power aren't afraid of losing it, and find me a solution to it.

    A rebellion. 

     

    Since they won't give it, we will take our free. We will die, but will die free.

     

    This is not a knee-jerk reaction but... I am joining the Takers as the idea has matured in me, largely through these discussions. I am more fond of the Awakened, I would like a moderate end but they are too idealistic. They won't go far enough. When it is needed, they will not send the Unbound. 
    I really, really don't want to kill any Serviles. They have been betrayed and mistreated. 

    But the Takers, antagonists as they are, they appeal to me. I don't want to sabotage the other serviles, but you need to break eggs to make omelet. If the Awakened have to go, then they have to go. I hope I don't have to hit them very hard. 

     

     

     

  9. "Going off memory, the highest number of creations controlled by a single Shaper that I remember referenced in the series is somewhere around 40 (Geneforge 3, I think?), but my memory could be faulty. 
    That show-off was in GF5 and pretended it wasn't special, even though the PC's jaw dropped off. 
    GF:M reflects control much better IMO. 

     

    "This was precisely the issue with Shaper Monarch, right?" 
    Using "Shaper" and "Monarch" in the same sentence gives me the creeps. That's like saying "Shaper Litalia" and frankly she was less insane and less mass-murderous. She was against working with the Monarch and fled. 

    That said: Nope, that's not the issue just with the Monarch. As someone else said, that's precicely the issue with Spawners. They are connected to an essence pool and ... 4-5 of them took down an island defended by soldiers in GF3. Alwan's Spawners seem to be more in control in GF5, with Alwan having placed "triggers" when the spawners start spawning somehow. 

    Also, in GF3, when the characters speak to the scout that followed Litalia, we are told she would stop once a while, spam  a horde of creations, send them far away and release them. 

    " He had the essence to create them, but not the need to control them. Definitely problematic..." 
    Pronblematic as in: He was fighting the Shapers and the Rebellion in a standstill. And slowly winning. Because he had essence pools, spawners and was completely bonkers and reckless. 

     

    "I haven't seen addressed is that shaping is portrayed to be an incredibly physically demanding act in the lore."
    Not really, no. In the first games it was a slower procedure that couldn't be done in combat but later it was retconned. We are given descriptions of rebels and Shapers spawning monsters with abandon in the midst of a battle. As mentioned before, Litalia in GF3 walks around with her creepy smile and spams creations. 
    In the last battle in GF5 you mentioned, we're talking about a handful of Shapers that machine-gun out creations nearly as fast as the Drakons can make them, without issue. It is described as the "common" Shaper battle: Sending out hordes of creations till the other side crushes. 

    I honestly don't recall anywhere in the lore Shaping to be considered physically demanding. 

     

     

    And as for the remarkable: The Spawners do it. Monarch does it. Litalia does it. Several other Shapers do it in the battle with the forts. The "Taxing" part is controlling them according to the lore. 

    We're not talking theory here: Spawners are from GF1 been mentioned as a great issue precisely because of the essence pools. 

     

     

    "Shaper mantra isn't "people are nefarious, and we have to control our power because of it." It's more along the lines of "people are prone to mistakes, and we have to control our power because of it." 

    I disagree. What you say is the excuse Shapers give. Shaper Mantra is "we control the keys to our civilization (like electronics in the late 20th century) and we are not sharing it because it gives us power." 

    They are power-hoarding, not power-protecting. As I said, there are ways to spread Shaping knowledge without as many issues as the Shapers pretend they are. 

     

    If you have 30 Shapers, 20 of which are Shapers doing research, 5 of them are Guardians fighting rogues and killing those that are naughty Shapers and 5 of them are Agents to point the finger towards naughty Shapers you are... in more or less the same place as if you have 

    3000 Shapers, 2000 of which are Shapers, 500 of them are guardians and 500 of them are agents. 

     

    Now, add 10000 pen-pushers, bureaucrats and security advisers that are not Shapers but make sure the Shapers behave, have the Servant minds record what is doing and Agents-in-charge checking that what goes on in the lab is legal and you have a frankly more secure system than  "OK, you have been cleared as a Shaper so now we uber-trust you. Do this job in that remote lab as you see fit and remember to keep in touch once per 5 years." <=== current system. 

    I have told you in the past and I will say it again: Zachary was hoodwinking the council for more than 5 years. The Rebellion succeeded in GF3 because the Shapers were complacent and not checking what other Shapers are doing. Hoge was a rebel teacher out of four professors and nobody noticed (people don't change in a day). Litalia went from killing Serviles in Drypeak mountains to rebel and nobody noticed. That lady in the woods in GF2 that made the medallion that you fill in the labyrinth was "lost in the system".  Rawal made a Geneforge in his basement. Alwan filled the place with Spawners. Kayden was spamming Gazers and making the apocalypse-disease.  

    My pointShapers are evidently very lax in policing other Shapers. 
    Their approach is "once you're a Shaper we trust you." The hard part is to be trusted to become a Shaper. Once you crawl through the various tunnels and emerge a Shaper, oversight is minimal. Because Shapers care more about preserving their powers in the hands of the few than what those few do with their powers.

    Shapers are hypocritical, tyrannical and evil. 

  10. He is pretty clear on how he got there and how he got his buddies all set up. Nepotism, favoritism and looking the other side when it suit him. I think Kayden and Alwan are the only councilors that got their positions meritocratically. Astoria and that old dude in Ghaldring's ending seem like people that rose up stepping on bodies and/or buddies. 

     

    In GF2, Zacary put his cronies in positions and Barzal manipulated him to get half of them. 

  11. Well, I don't disagree with your sentiment. But: 
    There's already tiers of Shaper hierarchy, the Council is above the Lords, the lords are above the local lab-boss of Fort-boss and the local lab-boss is above the rank-and-file Shaper. Which brings exactly the issues you mentioned: Rawal is in the council and may come to dominate it in some endings of GF5. Alwan and Astoria (both criminals in the eyes of Shaper law) are products of the war so I won't touch them, but Kayden was already a butthole before the war according to everyone you talk with. 

     

    As for Shapers taking their traditions and laws pretty seriously, in the good days they seemed to do. I give you that. But you had the tiered hierarchy back then. 

  12. @Sudanna: 

    Well, as I was saying in the previous post, the Shapers could have put a lot more effort to see what Shapers actually do. So, yes, many Shapers would know how to make and maintain an essence pool. I am pretty sure more pharmacists know how to make narcotics or poisons. But there are inspections and there are laws. If Shapers, Shapers not modern pharmacists are told "Don't make essence pools, they are dangerous. The one in your research facility would require special permission to use and would be guarded behind a locked door" they would do it. Shapers are mostly loyal and follow protocols or they don't become Shapers. That's the one thing the Shapers mostly do well: follow Shaper Law. And yet, there's no Shaper law to limit the essence pools. I often walk into Shaper labs and find the Shaper working in his office while the essence pool is in a different, unlocked room. I have found smiths working with essence pools. There are essence pools in all the schools I have seen in GF:M. 

     

    Essence pools being finite: Well, all Essence in this pools require to "grow" is light and occasionally some goo. And it replenishes itself fast enough as you said, for Spawners to spawn forever. But... Spawners are illegal. So, I won't blame Shaper Law for that.  

  13.   "  actually don't see even a hint of this in the lore. In fact, on the contrary, the series indicates quite often that Shapers are chosen first for their aptitude, and then gradually filtered out based on their attitudes toward Shaper law.  " 

    Yes, the Shapers say that, but that's not what I have seen. They go by "Loyalty first" despite the flowery words they spew. There are talented mages throughout the series that are not made to Shapers because they are not considered loyal enough, when they fight and fight for the Shapers against the Rebels while the Rebels fill their ranks (especially in GF2) with Shapers that changed sides. 
    As for how they pick people and nepotism, it is never said in the lore but I believe it happens because that's how people are. Even going by strong beliefs, it happens even in most religious hierarchies and most religious hierarchies frown upon bishops having children. 

     

    "With the current system where only  the best and brightest become Shapers, you still end up with things like fatal burrowing mold (G3) or plants that choke out an ecosystem (Is that Geneforge 2?). 
    And with electronics, biochemistry, medicine, computer engineering etc you end up with nukes, chemical attacks that kill hundreds, cyber attacks on banks and institutions and environmental disasters. And yet, nobody is talking about closing down universities allowing only a caste of select few going there.
    Holding back technological advancement (or magical in the case of the Shapers) because of few people being admitted to study the required fields (either because they have to work in food production or because an evil magocracy denies them) was the reason technology was progressing at glacial speed in the past. 

    Our system of unchecked scientific progress is not great either and there are a lot of disasters and misuse. And yet, here we are. Few advocate for a return to the 1900s. 

    Random people can go to wikipedia and figure how to make massive amounts of dangerous things from things in their local supermarket. And yet, fertilizer bombs and home-made napalm don't destroy the world. Because the law enforcement stops most of them. Not all, most. A random nurse could grab saliva of 3-4 covid patients from her hospital and spread the disease in a nursery home or twelve. And yet, it hasn't happened because people are not psychos. 

    A dedicated bioterrorist could go to place where the bubonic plague is endemic or grab water contaminated by Cholera from Yemen (that had a cholera outbreak) and go spread it in the Favelas of Brazil or the slums of Delhi. Either disease in such a place would flourish and it would cause a horrid outbreak with thousands of deaths by the time it is contained. And again, it hasn't happened because people are not psychos. 

    But it would be contained because we have a lot of medical personnel. 

     

    Especially the cholera/plague example, it would be more catastrophic than the two examples you mentioned... because healing either requires more than a Shaper waving his or her hand and curing people stopping the disease dead on its tracks. 
    So... no. Our civilization gives the average Joe the chance to do a lot more harm than a pen-pusher not-brilliant Shaper*. And yet, travel to Southern Colorado where the plague is endemic is not regulated at all and while it certainly won't be easy to go to Yemen and get out with a bottle containing cholera-tainted water, it is not that hard either. And here we are. 
    Do you support closing off all parks in Oregon and Southern Colorado for the off-chance that someone would catch the bubonic plague and accidentally (or maliciously) spreading it? Because that's what the Shapers do. And they can fix their mess easier than we can stop a cholera outbreak in Delhi. 


    *without access to an essence pool

     

    "But there are reasons there are extreme protocols for scientists working with infectious diseases. 
    My point is that there are extreme protocols for scientists working with infectious diseases. Not extreme protocols to stop people from becoming scientists because they could end up working with infectious diseases. 

    Again my solution is: Don't teach Shapers how to make diseases, have agents check what they do so they won't teach how to make diseases themselves, have a lot of Shapers ready to CURE diseases (which is very easy and even agents do it in those 'petition your shaper' meetings we see in... I think GF4 or GF5) and have extreme protocols for the Shapers that work on diseases. Or battle alphas. 

    I.e. don't stop people from being shapers, regulate the Shapers themselves. Don't put extreme protocols on who becomes Shaper, put extreme protocols on the dangerous things Shaper do. Put a lot of effort to regulate how Shapers advance and supervise what they research. 

    I mean, in GF2 it is 5 years that the colony in Drypeaks "struggles" before Shapers show up to check. There's that nice lady there in the woods that gives you the nice multi-tiered medalion, that nobody knows she is there and she explains she has fell through the cracks because nobody is looking for her. For all that's holy, they have made a horde of drakons and Gazers there, and started a battle-royal between four factions and the Shapers are not aware, because they sent ONE agent after 5 years. Had Shanti not brought you, her apprentice, with her, the Shapers would be none the wiser. Oh, and what Shanti does when you head out. "here's how to make monsters my apprentice." So, so, responsible.  

     

    The Shaper solution of "we try to make only wise (and loyal) people Shapers and then we givethem a looooooooot of space" is deeply flawed. 

     

     

    "Limitations on one's power, according to Shaper dogma, should be perceived as a good thing. " 

    I agree. I completely agree. But:

    "They are just as concerned about controlling themselves as they are about controlling the outsiders." 
    No, they are not.
    Evidently they are not. Look at what someone does, not what someone says. 
    Kayden is there making diseases and gazers and nobody gives a crap except the rebels. Alwan is filling entire tunnels with spawners and has those Servant Minds and control nodes to Shape and control creations and they go gaga. Rawal is having a geneforge in his basement. 

    Before you say "all those things were  only possible because of the Rebellion and the breakdown of the system" we're talking about three councilors here. The watchers that watch the watchers. 

    In GF2 Bazral and Zachary do whatevs for 5 years and nobody cared to look deeply on what they did in Sucia. They didn't learn how to make cannisters from cannisters you know. They did digging and research there, probably for years. 

     

    And of course: GF3. The entire Rebellion was possible, taking entire provinces in weeks, because the Shapers cared about controlling outsiders and not controlling themselves. 

     

  14. 2 hours ago, JDubkins said:

    A few rebels that actually doubt the rightness of their cause. A handful of serviles that don't outright hate you; they just want to be free.

     

     

    I am not talking about the justification of the Rebellion. It is more than justified in my eyes and it was from the beginning. GF4 is IMO the lowest point of the Rebellion. No, it's not THAT that I am talking about. I am talking about how a Shaper that saw everyone he knew killed by Litalia and Hoge, then he was being hounded by Litalia's monsters and attacked by Hoge... changed sides for no reason other than power to join them. 

    I mean... ?!?!?!? 

     

    This is not the desperate peasant boy from regions the Rebels were losing to the monsters of the Shapers, running like crazy with large magic-lighting things you have never seen before killing your friends one by one as a rebel leader tries to delay them. 

    This is a Shaper apprentice that sees how awesome power the people that killed his friends yield and decides to join them. Because aside of the canisters you are not given much of a reason to join the Rebellion.

     

    Sure, sure, Litalia tells you that the Shapers will lose so you better join the rebels or you will join the pile of corpses. You have no reason to believe her until 2/3 of the game. I mean, 3 apprentices stop Litalia's Spawners in the first island ... where you learn that this batpoop crazy woman didn't really care much about. It was like "wait, what? Litalia's shade was chilling here waiting when we will defeat the spawners telling us she mostly wanted to destroy the school and the monsters were just to prove to people that the Shapers can't protect them?" 

    The rebels have won in that first island. Whatever side you pick, the rebels have won. You just clear the mess they left in the kitchen after cooking dinner. Litalia could have deactivated the spawners or send someone to destroy the spawners instead of wait when a bunch of apprentices she didn't kill would stop the spawners. 

  15. This is a quick reply, cause I have to go but I don't think that's how Shapers and essence work.

     

    - Shapers can make essence but it takes a lot of time and materials etc. 

     

    - Shapers can Shape creations and Shapers can Control/command creations and those two are not the same thing. We see that from the Unbound (uncontrollable), the Drayks (hard to control so they are considered rogue), Servant Minds that can control creations but not Shape them, Those trinkets the Takers love that allow people to bypass their creations and more. 
    Another example is Litalia in GF3 that was spamming creations she didn't bother to control, or the Monarch in GF4 or Shapers and Rebels in GF5 in that valley between the Drakons and the Line that was full of rogues and soon-to-be-rogues. You are even told that Ghaldring's trinket will not protect you very well. 

     

    - Shapers can control creations they didn't make themselves and we see that in GF1:M, GF3, GF4 and GF5 if memory serves, with the player's shaper taking control of Shaila's Artila in GF4, or commanding not-rogue turrets to shut down or commanding a servant mind to die. 

     

    - The "tied to my essence" creations is IMO the game mechanics way to limit you. Shapers and Lifecrafters in game talk about the danger to lose control if you try to control many creations -  except that one show-off guy that brags about controlling 41 creations in battle and remotely, by using those crystals and soothing one creation then moving to the next one etc. 
    I think the current system of GF1:M reflects the actual strain of control much better. 

     

    - There are even those pacification pylons for Shapers or the torture pylons for the Barzites to help Shapers / Barzites control larger numbers of rogues by keeping them docile. 
    And there are those not-so-nice pillars that creations like serviles, thahds etc are tried and whipped to remain loyal. 

     

     

    To return to my earlier point: Yes, essence pods and essence pools are conveniences and not necessities, but a Shaper can use them to do a LOT of damage. The Monarch and Litalia from memory are such Shapers that used tons of essence to spam creations and release them from their control.

     A shaper that didn't have access to such conveniences would need weeks \ months to make one if he knew how and had the materials. 
    (It wouldn't stop the Monarch cause he had the time to make the pools and it wouldn't stop Litalia cause she had the mana reserves in her body) 

  16. The issue I have with GF3 is that the way the choice is made seems ... inorganic. Artificial. I choose to be a Rebel so I do rebel quests. I don't get whispers promising me power in the dark to make me change. I simply ignore that the people I align with for cannisters have blown up my school and killed my classmates. Greta is a worse offender than Alwan here. Yes, I also sympathize with the Serviles and yes, I believe the Shaper society deserves to collapse. 
    That said, I blinked my eyes and Greta went from the "let's stop those horrible rogues that kill people" of the first island to "let's support those guys and not stop the rogues" with practically zero in between. Nothing to show me internal conflict from Greta. Again: I also like the serviles and I have read the lines Greta said when we saw them suffering. But I also saw the lines from Greta when simple people were suffering by Litalia's monsters (and rightfully so) and then Greta jumps next to me to become the sidekick of Litalia's sidekick. 

     

    The Rebellion didn't win my character in GF3. Someone that held the beliefs my character should have held to be a rebel (powerhungry and care about the serviles) would not be a shaper. You go from "The rebels killed practically everyone I know for the past 3 years and filled the island with monsters" to "let's join them."  with little growth in between. In GF2, you see the lies, you see how much better the Awakened are, how fiery is the passion of the Takers and... nothing good about the Bazrites or the Shapers. In GF1:M (I haven't played the original) you see what the Serviles went through and you are hitting cannisters because (at least at first) you need that power and to oppose the invaders. In GF4, the Shapers kill your friends and if you join the Shapers there are very reasonable ways to do it: Because you were intimidated by Crowly (the general in the early game) and you think they Shapers will win. Or because you see Shaila and learn AFTER the fact that you could have turned to goo by the geneforge. Or because you come to see the Shapers as the lesser of two evils (I do not, but they are presented as such). Or you remain loyal to the Rebellion and you fight for the "2nd wind" that the Unbound would give - can't make omelet without breaking eggs. 

     

    Well, in GF3 the Shapers are presented very badly, but you START as a Shaper and in more than 2/3 of the game the Rebels appear to be WORSE. For the first 3rd of the game, the rebels are antagonists whether you eventually join the rebellion or not! 
    And the "They go from antagonists to joining them" part happens in a very artificial way, nothing like GF4. 

     

    The rebellion deserved better. 

    Give us reasons to join the Rebellion, even if it comes down to "Look, we have canisters". Frankly, Lankan's part in the early game, where Litalia's answer to "can you stop sending monsters to kill my friends?!" is "No. But I can make you a monster so you can kill the monsters that I send to kill your friends" is very bizarre. 
     

     

      

    1 hour ago, Superdeath25 said:

    Plus, the Shapers do seem to moderate on their ideas as the series goes on, lampshaded by that general who recruits you in Geneforge 4 who says the Shapers have reevaluated some policies in the wake of the war and mentioned having to be practical in some ways. 

      

     

    Crowly and Alwan do, by setting aside some of the tried-and-true but ultimately beyond-their-time dogma of the Shapers. Khysaaks get on the field before they are even stabilized or tested. Alwan spams Spawners and has Servant minds control and even spawn creations. He has Shapers doing MAJOR self-shaping with Moseh going completely gaga because of it. 

     

    Shaper Kayden fills the Spire with gazers, Creations so alien that even the rebels stop making them. 

     

    Rawal (that I will not call Shaper any more than I would call Greta or Monarch a Shaper) makes a geneforge and hides it in his basement. 

     

     

     

  17. Well, I am no great philosopher. But speaking theologically (I am not theologist) I would say that most proto-religions and ancient religions were exactly like what you describe as the problem in my view: the worship of several entities that are different. 
    On the second part of "Yeah buddy BUT... Creations are not biological, they are shaped Essence given form, even if that form is huge and breaths fire and you can break them down with spells that target that alone - which have been removed from this game for some reason and replaced with something that dazes creations". There you completely got me. I admit that.  
    On that part, I don't know if it is coincidence or ingenious or even if I recall correctly who did it but the Awakened hiding the disruption wand (that used to destroy creations instead of daze) makes much more sense since seeing solid proof that the Shapers are X and you are What-X-made-from-Essence and "They can give and they can destroy" on top of the inborn obedience the Serviles are born with (and Takers fight against) would turn a lot of Awakened back to mild-obeyers. 

     

    Now,  having established that Shapers are at least closer to deities of ancient religions when it comes to Creations... we get to my main point: 
    Are they worth of worship and obedience? Or not? 

    No, they are not. They are not deities, they just happen to be similar to deities, tick many of the boxes. Yes, they created the Creations and the Creations are inherently different than the Shapers. A person that clones other persons is not worth of their worship. A person that makes fully sapient robots is not worth their worship. (So I am against building fully sapient robots). The whole "I, Robot" books touch this. 

     

    That said, on the other issues with the Shapers: 
    If the Shapers were not buttholes with their power, I won't had problems with them.

     

    Control of  Shaping:

    I completely agree that such insane power as Shaping is should be closely controlled and regulated. The Shapers have a very good system to minimize the damage. Not a perfect one, but a good system. 
    They have a horrible attitude towards this though and we never saw how one is chosen to be considered as a Shaper aside of "picked for loyalty". I am willing to bet, based on what I have seen from our world that nepotism and personal relationships play a large role on how "your successors" are chosen. Simply put, I have no trust in humans to keep up a meritocratic system for more than 3 generations. The uber-wise guys that set it up will make a mistake here and there in the 1st generation. Those not-so-perfect guys would dilute the system more in the 2nd generation and those OK-but-not-perfect guys would fill more slots with yesmen and lackeys in the 3rd generation than good ones. 
    And then, 3-4 generations down the line there will be a push to go back to something wise and the situation will improve and the cycle will continue with the "pendulum" of crappy nepotism / objectively good will swing back and forth.
    In modern societies (even not the most democratic) you see those swings between changes of government instead of generations. 

     

    My point after all this drivel is: The Shapers are not bad at controlling the very powerful tool of Shaping. Yes, it is needed in moderation. There are certainly unwise Shapers and a lot of accidents but more often than not, the system doesn't suffer catastrophic failures. Sure, a pity for colony_813 that got hit by a disease that turned them blind because Shaper A was pissed with Shaper B or valey_21 that had its mines locked down when Shaper C miscalculated on the acid-producing fungi he was making to help them dig and they spread too much and they were also poisonous...  but such things are not too common. 
    Sure, there's room for improvement. I am the first to say that. The Shapers are not as careful as they should be. BUT with all my love for the Rebellion, let's not pretend the Drakons or the Rebel humans would be more careful. And they don't have the multitude systems in place to react quickly and efficiently when bad things happen. 

     

    Magic and Shaping Hoarding: 

    Control of Shaping and magic is reasonable... but the Shapers go too far. They are more likely to reward loyalty than talent. 

    Consider say electronics engineering or computer science. Both are able to create wonderful things, from the machines we play Geneforge on to simplified programming languages and software so that Jeff can make Geneforge. They can also make things like tools to make sophisticated bombs (or purify the materials you need) and megahacking software that can take down the electric grid of a whole country. 

    How do you think our society would be, if the mentality was Shaper-wise of "Only the most loyal after a ton of screening, would ever learn to program or make electronics and this caste of electronic and software engineers would have absolute control of what devices and technology the Outsiders would ever use. " 

    That's the Shapers. And it's wrong.

     

    For starters, so far there has been no great megahacking and while electronic devices have been used in horrific ways, they are not the leading cause of death anywhere. And that's because most people are not psychos and because we have defenses for those that are psychos. Second, even without defenses the vast majority of people don't know how to make a sophisticated bomb out of electronics or create a program that would take a country back to the dark ages. 
     So... no. The Shapers are over-reacting. Shaping is damn hard. More people knowing Shaping means more people to keep an eye on what Shaping does and more people to fix the problems. 
    There is also a difference between teaching people to make Battle Alphas and teaching people to Shape their flowers to be slightly more pink for the wedding. I don't know what software engineers and programmers are taught, but I would bet they are not taught how to bypass security systems. Sure, there are government agencies that teach that to a select few and some talented ones can find out on their own. But... our world still exists and frankly taking out the internet of a country at this point would be much more devastating than a handful of rogue Shapers going bananas. 

     

    My point: Teaching people how to make weapons should be regulated; don't teach how to make battle alphas. Having huge schools with countless shapers focused on agriculture or medicine is not an issue. I don't see many doctors stealing a contagious disease when it shows up in the hospital and spreading it in acts of bioterrorism, not many agronomists spreading parasites to their neighbor's farm. 

    The Shapers use as an excuse the need to regulate Shaping to hoard it so they can keep their power

     

    How they treat the Creations
    I see we agree that they treat serviles bad. Well, they treat drayks, gazers and inutile worse. 
    These are creatures with sentience and feelings. "Our children" as the Shapers lie to each other for no reason. They are not machines that you break down for parts if they don't do what they are supposed to do anymore. And that's for "current" Shapers. I very recently found an Arena in Sucia Island where Shapers were having creations ("our children") beat each other to death for the laugh and giggles. In GF2, that Barzites also had that showing that you cannot trust Shaper society to not digress back to further barbarism. Not that you can trust Drakon society to not devolve to not keep farms of humans to eat, but you get my point. 
    I am more than glad that in GF:M my creations still remain relevant, even if suboptimal, as they go up in levels. I keep a place open to get a Drayk when I get the cannister (I have searched half the map and I haven't found one) because I don't want to simply destroy one of my creations that served me loyally all this time just because I got "a better model". These are not cars to replace or break down for parts.  

     

     

     

    Random grumbling about Shapers: 
    The Essence pools. OMG, the Essence pools. An idiot Shaper with an essence pool can probably have enough essence to create 500 rogues. And these things are everywhere. If you have to regulate something, start with regulating essence pools and essence pods. This is the most horrible hole in the Shaper damage-mitigation protocols. That one Shaper that would fall through the cracks could do much much more damage with an essence pool. 

     

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