alhoon

2 hours ago, oceanes said:

There is also a very timid servile in Medab who mentions that Zackary was the only Shaper who was ever kind to him, that he treated him gently. I think Zackary has a soft spot for children, or those he thinks of as children.

It is a kid Servile girl, an orphan and Lying Zackary the Deceiver was not just "kind to her", he was the Shaper that protected her and saved her and put her under his protection. Most Serviles that survived was useful in some way or another; not that girl. She was spared because Zackary saved her. And its not that her parents were useful so he wanted to warm up to them. No. She is an orphan. I cannot see any benefit from saving what's-her-name for Zackary aside of basic human decency. 

Lying Zackary the Deceiver has a couple of redeeming qualities, that in no way overshadow or even compare to the vast net of deception he set up or how pathetic and sniveling he is. 

He is not that far from the Awakened, which is understandable because Lying Zackary the deceiver is still the same Zackary that walked in Sucia all those years ago- he hasn't Shaped himself, so he is not mad. He had come to understand, in his horror, how much happened behind his back. He was too slow "to be afraid" and he had lost control of the mountains long before he realizes that he was not in control of the mountains, that the Awakened were not Common under the Shaper Empire but independent from him and his wishes. 

Regardless, I will kill him for the tons of lies he told me and for backtracking and throwing his lot with the Shapers. If Zackary was willing to join the Awakened against Barzhal and the Shaper Council, I would be willing to look the other way; he is not very useful for research himself but the tons of Shapers he has under his control are better.  

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

you know I always thought of the purity agent as a biological warfare version of a nuke.

Not really; it doesn't do big devastation that renders an area uninhabitable for years and hazardous for decades. 

The equivalent of a nuke is a spawner that makes rogues that can reproduce. 

1 hour ago, ultra112 said:

Wait he had those scrolls? Ok didn't know about that one though. 

Yeap. From all of them, Taygen has it. And obviously, like the Wise Shaper he is, promoted for his genius and skill, what he does with this awesome power is: 

Create a plague that is extremely contagious and absolutely deadly to creations, hitting them at the most fundamental level. A complete genocide of anything, from Unbound and Shredbugs down to Ornks and Batons. 

Think of it like pressing the button and destroying all electronics in our world. 

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

To be perfectly honest what Danette and her team researched on Sucia is absolutely ground breaking and would have revolutionized Shaping forever; but sadly they let this excitement went right up to their heads and ruined the whole thing as a result, not to mention leaving a huge mess for us to clean up afterwards.

Why so? 

Taygen has those scrolls in his lab and it is not destroyed. 

2 hours ago, Slawbug said:

On the other hand, in old SW games with stat or skill based hit rates, that just resulted in incredibly inflexible and predictable stat/skill point usage.  It was really punishing if you wanted to diversify at all, and it didn't actually result in deeper or more varied or more interesting build options.

That. 

You would be very suboptinal to put say 30% / 70% of your points on missile /melee  if you were melee as you wouldn't hit with missile except in weak enemies and you would be gimping your melee hit chance. 

That's just covering the evidence in a very efficient way. 

3 hours ago, Slawbug said:

The necessary investment in Mechanics and Leadership is pretty tiny.

 

> having more creation at zero upgrade has a better outcome than spending essence on upgrades of fewer creations

 

I mean, "upgrades" vary wildly in how good they are.  For the most part I agree with this sentiment, but there are some key upgrades for many creations that are absolutely worth it.

Haste for example, or the blast cones for drayks/Fyoras come to mind!

Anyone managed to kill Shanti? I loaded back right before I got out of the tunnel and tried it. 
She is probably too hard for a 6th level character but it should be doable for you pros, at least in normal difficulty. I managed to get her down to below half hp before she did something that did 70 hp to my already wounded char. 

1 minute ago, Randomizer said:

"

What are the summoned soul jars? "

 

When you do enough damage to Teriel, he summons a soul jar that heals him and provides some other bonuses.

I saw "summon soul jar" but I didn't see anything aside of an Ur-Glaak. 

33 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Some infernal like Teriel are meant to be fought when you are a few levels higher if you want an easier fight.

 

Teriel heals if you aren't near him. This is ti prevent agents from standing out of attack range and using airshock. Same for other foes that are in a fixed position like pylons.

 

Destroying summoned soul jars prevents him from getting bonuses and healing.

What are the summoned soul jars? 

Also, if I am close to Teriel he uses some weird attack and deals a bunch of damage to me. But I will do what you suggest and I will revisit once I am 16 level. But I wanted that +1 essence mastery.

I have killed the Bound One before finding out that quest, so I have to kill that guy now to get that sweet, sweet +1 essence mastery. 

Infernal Teriel: 

I am 14 level, I have 2 drakons at level 20, 2 Drayks at level 19, 1 Fyora at level 18 and Xander at level 15 with boosted intelligence and spells (+2). I am playing on normal. 

Aspect of Chaos was a breeze. 
Teriel? Teriel cuts through half my party in the first round and heals for whatever minor damage I did to him. I presented the Baton. 

How on earth can I beat that dude? I am not even sure I can turn to easy and win. 

18 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

Of course, if the Shapers ever find the Sholai homeland, they're going to be at a huge disadvantage if they don't have Shaping Magic of their own.

 

Infestation adds some interesting lore about it though - apparently the Sholai lands are very difficult to find and when they go on expeditions, only their navigators know how to return (like they intentionally take some wrong turns to confuse the rest of the crew). Their navigators also use magic that straight up kills them if they ever reveal the location of their homeland. Kind of hardcore. 

What?!? 

Where did you learn that? Also... THAT is the kind of safeguard that the Shapers need. You try to make a Geneforge? you blow up. Not wait for an Agent to find you, survive and return to the Council. 

I spoke with the Emissary about Tuldaric's Infernal. I was half-right. Tuldaric did not summon the Infernal. He found it and trapped it. Why he hasn't send it back? The Emissary doesn't know. Considering that Tuldaric is weeeell gone I am not sure Tuldaric even remembers why he didn't banish the Infernal in the first place. When I talk to him about the Infernal, he says stuff like "I will soon break its will" as if it is possible to "tame" an Infernal... 

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

It's more after the Geneforge used in GF2, the dragon allies want to limit how much of an upgrade their servile and common man allies get. They realize that giving a full GF1 upgrade will make them too powerful and shift the balance.

 

Just look at how powerful the canister mad Barzites got.

Not too powerful. At least, not powerful enough for me to wipe the floor with them. Also, the Takers had no issue with how powerful humans could be. They say so in GF4 and GF5. 

I think the main issue is that you don't have Danette anymore. Taygen, for all his evil, could perhaps make a better Geneforge. The ones the humans and even the Drakons made, are weaker. IIRC the GF4 geneforge didn't even need gloves.

The one the Takers have in GF2 is also weaker than subsequent ones. 

9 minutes ago, Val Ritz said:

 

judging by how the one prospective Lifecrafters use only gives you limited abilities.

Not entirely true. Jarred and Shaila got a lot of mileage out of it; it is for game balance reasons only, I think, that the player gets just what he or she does. I would also point out that while "limited" in the sense you don't get a +8 to all stats it does give you actual Shaper knowledge; you can study books and all and do research. I.e. you are not like the Barzhite Can-Shapers or What's-his-name in 2nd island of GF3 that can do just the tricks the was Shaped to do. 

SPOILERS FOR GENEFORGE 5!!!! 

Keep in mind that this will affect the robes of every Shaper in the game. 

12 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

I did something similar as a challenge run for Mutagen... never again!

Hyperion, to my understanding, speaks of something very different: Finish the quests like a normal person and then once you're an amazing level with quest-equipment and rewards, training and all, go all Litalia and purge everything on the mountains except Ghaldring. 

3 hours ago, Broken Mind said:

Their leader assures me that they are a calm and thoughtful people who would not make such mistakes. So clearly we can give them essence and the means to create cannisters with no problems. There is no evidence to the contrary (because shapers destroyed all the evidence).

Actually, there is Rook. The Shapers weren't as thorough as they thought. 

That said, their leader also assured me that they are people-loving explorers that love to learn languages and strange customs. Not conquerors.

Nooope. I am pretty sure they dominated their own lands and continent with smiles and by learning languages. And they put Cannons on their ships that killed my poor boat-Drayk for cultural reasons. 
It is also clear their 18th level warriors got to that level of training, able to take probably an Alpha one-on-one, just by practice, not by experience. And they practiced the way some cultures practice their ceremonial fighting (and I include the Texans in that group, just so you know). 

They also have a strange custom in apparently, not telling where their main base is. Nothing sinister could ever come from that. 

10 hours ago, JDubkins said:

There's a reason it is both incredibly difficult and generally unpopular to hold a nation accountable for actions it took hundreds of years ago, especially when said actions pre-date any social or philosophical movement that condemns it.)

Actually, it is very common and quite popular; parties use it to get votes all the time. The French and the English, the entire Balkan area, the Middle East, the USA and the British Empire, the Natives and the Colonizing nations which is arguably the most relevant here. 

10 hours ago, JDubkins said:

"they eradicated the culture by killing everyone"

I didn't mean that; I meant they burned the books of magic they didn't like, forbid the practices, dismantled the social structures that propagated those practices, executed or defeated in battle leaders that didn't bend the knee and severely punished those that tried to continue them. 
You know... cultural genocide. To avoid rubbing salt on wounds as I don't know where everyone is from, and despite what you said blaming nations for what they did long ago is very easy and very popular, I will go with the Roman Empire and the Carthaginians. 

The Romans forbid the speaking of the Carthaginian language, burned the city to the ground and poisoned the wells, destroyed records and books in their language, and more or less did everything they could to eradicate the Phoenician heritage. The did go way further than the Shapers, considering that "forbade speaking the language" included cutting off the tongues of every Carthaginian they captured before turning them to slaves. But you can find more recent examples that are much closer to what the Shapers did, which I am not willing to bring up as some such practices were continued till 50 years ago. 

10 hours ago, JDubkins said:

Your repeated assumption that an individual Shaper has the personal agency to eliminate a culture or religion because he or she has a "sore tooth" is an example of allowing bias to propel conjecture past the confines of evidence (the lore).

We are told that at least twice in GF2-I alone. Next time I see it I will put it here again. And yes, I understand that is probably a hyperbole and it is probably more complex... as far as GF2 goes.   

Because in GF3, in the 3rd island, Lord Rhaul's island, I forget the name, we have an entire school of Common magic - similar to the Magus complex but legal, where the headmaster is sweating and near-panic because you, an apprentice that have not yet been officially out of school, can turn down the entire school with a word. And the wording of that sentence is very similar to what I just said; I do remember the "with a word" part. 

But to get back to GF2-I, we are told that in a couple of cases. I'll grab it from the codex. 

Everything they do, is subject to approval. The rule is light but firm; that means, if Shapers do not approve, that something vanishes - whether it is a hierarchy, a guild, a company or, if we believe the wording, a city. I admit I don't think that Shapers would simply allow one of their own with a sore tooth to say "I need the land of City813 for my lab. Clear the grounds from houses and people within 2 weeks." but the local Shaper lord (not the Province boss, even a lower one) could very well say "We decided to put a fort / lab in the place where town1741 is because it is close to resources we need but distant enough in case things go bad; half the buildings would be commandeered by the Shapers and repurposed. The Common will be given reimbursement for their loss of property elsewhere, but they have to go elsewhere. Oh, I heard there is a nice guy called Shaper Zackary that promises his Drypeak Colony will succeed and is looking for people, in case you are interested. " 

10 hours ago, JDubkins said:

No individual has the ability to change the law to his or her preferences.

You said it: They have a lot of agency. Not in how to punish people, but in what to do within the law. Including research. 

A Shaper has extreme leeway into what to research despite very constant reminders that their mistakes cause severe problems. The Shaper Law includes things like "Make your research facility underground." and "Be ready to seal it and run." and "If you mess up, you will be punished!!!!" 

What it very evidently and pointedly does not have is oversight.

Zackary and Barzhal were allowed to do whatever the heck they pleased up there without oversight, and it was 10+ years till the Council decided to send one Agent to check. There are a ton of security laws and procedures to deal with the problems, but not an oversight committee to avoid the problems. 

In our research programs, we are sending reports every six months, but we also have deliverables and some oversight and if we fall behind there is an inspection. And our research is in mathematics not bioengineering. I bet you all the money in my pockets that big Pharma companies and the governments have inspectors, they don't just trust their research teams to follow the procedures. And a Pharma can do a lot of damage with a defective product but less than a Shaper. And I mean a mid-rank Shaper with a couple of assistants and an apprentice. 
 

The Shapers, in their arrogance fail in one of the most basic things of research: OVERSIGHT. A Shaper can put up a lab and start any research project within the Shaper Law and nobody would bother him or her. "I am making peaches with higher self life! And I take great care so that they won't be released till they are ready. " is perfectly acceptable as a "research project" and we are shown evidence that the Council won't even bother to look into what the guy is doing with the resources he commandeers from nearby farms and mines.
Did he really took all necessary safety precautions and does he follow all necessary safety procedures so that warped peaches won't become an invasive species? Nobody cares to check. 
Is he making peaches with higher self life, or is he making Drakons? Nobody cares to check.

If his mutated peaches escape his lab and become an invasive species, he will be severely punished. If he makes Drakons, he will be executed. There are very clear and well practiced and rehearsed safety procedures for the peaches to not escape. There are very strict laws to prohibit making of Drakons and controls and regulations so that the equipment necessary to make Drakons is controlled. 
But there is no oversight they are followed. 

The Shapers place too much faith on other Shapers. They place too much effort to make sure that the tiny few that become Shapers are loyal and too little in ensuring those that are Shapers don't make mistakes. 

A committee of 4-8 Shapers that periodically checks and evaluates a region's projects and the safety of their labs is not that hard. The Big Pharma companies manage. The various governments manage. The Shapers could manage too. 
And since Shapers are very loyal, those inspectors would be very hard to bribe. And since those inspectors are like Shanti, they are hard to kill too. 
 

10 hours ago, JDubkins said:

Shaper Law, within the timeframe that we encounter it within the game, is repeatedly characterized as "harsh but fair".

BY SHAPERS!

I doubt you will find many Drayks, Drakons or Gazers that would say that.  

33 minutes ago, MJgreg86 said:

look forward to some more of your script mods in the future.

Well, I have one with Xander to get him to level 15 and fix his double-searer issue + a small quest to make him a little more powerful with spells.

I plan to make one more where you convince Tuldaric to Zap one of your Drayks so that it can learn more magic, and then have the mages in the complex offer paths for the Drayk. 

46 minutes ago, Hyperion703 said:

Still, why is this servile level 45? And how can I get whatever he was smoking? 

The reasons are obvious. It is an act of the Goddess Bu'Ug. The whims of this goddess are capricious. Sometimes she helps. Sometimes she hinders. In a thankfully few cases she completely crashes the world. 

But fear not! 
There is a remedy. You could email the other Divines that look over this world and do their best to undo the damage Bu'Ug is doing. 

The secret ritual you require to contact those divines includes sending an email to support@spiderwebsoftware.com

19 minutes ago, Hyperion703 said:

She's got much more than that. She's got the wrath of god. It can be yours. Help her out to find out... 

Intriguing... 

3 hours ago, BloomingLilac said:

 

Great. I was worried since I downloaded the demo from Spiderweb. 

 

 

I appreciate your advice. I'll keep it in mind. 

I had the exact same question when the demo was out. In fact, I was afraid thanks to a mis-install in a different computer that I would lose my saves, but they were all there. 

As for the "One Branch only". It really helps. BUT it is not the end-all. This game allows you to be suboptimal. It is not a "puzzle" game where you have to pick the right things. I think even in the highest difficulty, there is leeway to do a few non-perfect things. 

Sure, some fights will be difficult ... but for the most part you can do them later! Very few are the encounters that you need to do before you can go somewhere else. 

26 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

I mean all seems fine until they ask me to help them to get samples of essence home, which made go nope. I mean you think they would learn after the whole Trajkov fiasco.

If it damages the Shapers I am for it. 

The issue is... does it damages the Shapers or it makes different kind of Shapers? The GF1-M Sholai were something between the Takers and the Barzhites