alhoon

1 minute ago, earanhart said:

in the Awakened dream where Shapers say "you know what, sure. We'll leave you alone here. Do your thing" the Takers would probably STILL be gunning for war. And not merely territorial expansion.

The Takers would be right for many reasons. 

1. The Shapers would come for the Awakened Nation sooner or later, even if a peace holds for 10 or 40 years. 

2. The Shapers were hunting and killing them for no reason, there's no reason to think they won't do so again. 

3. Putting the interests and Safety of Drayks, Drakons and rogue Serviles aside, the Shakers need to be taken down, because they are an evil, oppressive empire. The Common don't have it bad, compared to Creations or compared to other totalitarian / Theocratic / non-democratic regimes in history. But the Creations? No, they have reason to want to end the Shapers. 

1 hour ago, earanhart said:

And it's possible that the act of Taking your Free is too important to them and they need the war. Which would firmly put them into the no-excuse evil box alongside the Barzites.

I disagree. Vigilantism is not good, but seeking revenge / justice over the slights you suffered doesn't put you in the no-excuse evil box. 

And it can be argued that Taking your Free is not just suicide-by-Shaper but a desire to die a free being, which is frankly admirable and their most endearing quality. 

Xander is a mage servile that is recruitable for the Awakened. 

Being fond of Xander and always on the lookout for an extra pair of hands (or claws), I made this small mod so that Xander will be useful for a few more levels, without ever being overly powerful. 

Here is the link for the mod.

What the mod does: 

- It slightly increases Xander's level as the PC gains levels. To do that, you must visit Medab with Xander in the party. Xander gains +1 level when the PC reaches levels 10, 12 and 13. This reflects that as Xander travels with you, he becomes more experienced. However, his potential to reach is not that much; Xander will reach level 15 when the PC reaches level 13 and remain there. 

- At the PC level 11 Xander does not gain a level. However, the PC can talk to Cayche in the Magus Complex (as long the player is Awakened). If you perform a short fetch quest for her, she will increase Xander's proficiency with his spells. The change won't be dramatic; Xander gets +2 magic skill (+10% damage) and a +2 to +3 to the various spells he already knows. This will boost his damage somewhat without bringing him on par with a tier 3 creation. 

- Xander receives some minor resistances when you find him. These resistances slowly increase with his level. 

- Xander, as written in the game, had Searer as a default ranged attack AND as an active ability, which I found strange. I replaced his 2nd searer with a different spell. 

Installation Instructions: 

From Steam library, click on geneforge on the list to open the menu, go to "Browse local files", navigate to the "scripts" folder and overwrite the four scripts there with the scripts in the zip file. 

32 minutes ago, earanhart said:

Let's spin your stance back into my earlier question then:

 

Can a moderate make a claim to moral goodness when genocide is on the line? 

That... is a very interesting question. 

I don't know the answer. I disagree with you that the Awakened are happy for the Drayks to be genocided as the Awakened always talk about thinking creations. They even include the Gazers in that, which the later Rebels do not. 

But I am not sure all the Awakened are willing to fight to the end for the Drayks, no. They are willing to talk it out with the Shapers. But if it comes to the Shapers saying "And you will not allow Drayks in your lands, or no deal!" ... 

I don't know, I honestly don't know what the Awakened would say. I am sure some Awakened will say "No. They are thinking creations." But I also sure some Awakened will say "sad, but we had to compromise to end the war." and the "if we have to throw the Drayks under the bus in order to end the war so be it" faction would grow in power as the war goes on. 

ON THE OTHER HAND:
Barrier of the Winds. There is evidence that the Awakened will align with a "new generation" of Drakons that are not Takers. 
And I doubt even the Awakened will be that stupid to turn on their most powerful guards if the Shapers say "get rid of them, and then we talk." 

So, to surmise: It is certain that the Awakened will push for Drayk/Drakon rights. I am not so certain if they will go to the end for the Drayks. 
And I am actually certain they will never ever fight with the tenacity the Drayks will for the Drayks' right to survive. Heck, the Awakened are not willing to fight for their survival with the tenacity that Taker Serviles fight. It is not like the Awakened are not aware what will happen to them if the Shapers win. Even the Obeyers have been purged in Sucia. Let alone the Awakened. And yet, the Awakened are fighting a battle for their own survival with one hand tied behind their back. Against 10 foes. Their plan is to fight with one hand tied behind their back and a big stick in a small corridor so that the 10 foes will come one at a time. 

32 minutes ago, earanhart said:

There's a reason that EVERY Dryak left the Awakened (if they ever joined them in the first place). Ellrahs dream never included any non-Servile Creations (as it is communicated to the player of the games). Even in the face of MULTIPLE full Shapers working with them (to inckide Zakary at that point), the Awakened failed to make even ONE of the reptilians sympathetic to their cause. They ain't the "good guys" to other Creations. Only to Serviles.

If I was a Drayk, I would be against the Awakened too, but not for the reasons you say. Well, kinda.

From what I remember the dialogues with the Awakened leaders (plural) they always say "all thinking creations" which includes Drayks. 

But what the Drayks see is passiveness that will lead to their extermination. Lack of the conviction needed to avoid the genocide. When you are standing on the oil soaked field and the enemy is approaching with the torch, it is not the time to discuss whether you should first shout to the enemy to not do it, to try to reason with him as he holds the torch that will set you and all you love ablaze, before shooting him. 

And thus, we are back to your question: 

When genocide is on the line, is a moderate approach even morally good? 

I don't know. It is a hard question. 

But I know what a Drayk would think. 

=================================================================================

Back at being angry at Alvarny. 

I cleared the enemy encampment. And what do the Serviles do? Do they try to reclaim the supplies of the enemy? How about fortifying the enemy caves so the Takers won't simply slip inside again? 

Nope, they are tired (understandable) and so they all go back. Not a single guard left for the camp or the other camp. Just a patrol on the road. Which worked so marvelously the previous time. 

Level of a creation (not of an NPC but something you made) will reset instantly to what it should be, though. Keep that in mind. Attributes, maximum health etc remain. 

59 minutes ago, earanhart said:

This isn't one or two cowards, this is a systemic pattern throughout their military (which is most of them we see), which means it is encouraged by their leaders. 

 Also to address this: The awakened do not want to fight. They want peace. 

Which is my main issue with them. They take the blows to the chin and try to go high when others go low. At some point, you have to punch back. The Ghandi resistance cannot work when you are a small community of villages surrounded by monsters. 

When you find the Taker spy, the Awakened are happy to let him flee. 

Another thing I noticed: There are many Awakened that are too servile (not the race, I couldn't think of another word to show they are too awed by you and quasi-worship you and seem happy to serve you). Some are ex-obeyers, obviously, but I can see why the Takers are getting Sucia-cleansing flashbacks. 

What I mean is that, honestly, for every Awakened Servile that tells you 'I want to fight' or 'you go clean that mess your people made!' you find someone that goes biiig eyed and say "Shaper! Shaper! Will you save us with your awesome power?" or "You returned one of my ornks! Here is a reward worth x20 what the ornk is worth!". 
Pinner herself was brow-beaten by an apprentice, because I did not kill that Taker Drayk and still joined. That Drayk deserves to live, as far as I am concerned. I may take down the Roamer-making but unless I have to, I won't kill that Taker in the mines. 

Example: 

See that? He simply bows his head happily and obeys my order. The guy is an obeyer / Servant in the wrong side of the tunnel. 

I am pro-Awakened and I am of half of a mind to help the Takers kill those guys. I do not want absolute purity of ideals but the guy is 80% Servant and 20% Awakened as far as I am concerned. People like him will flee the Shapers when the time comes or worse, they will become the 5th column that will hamper Awakened effort. 

The Rebellion needs to wean out those people from the fighting force. No, not KILL poor Alvarny, but certainly not give him a weapon when facing Rogues (as they scare the loyal Serviles and he is mostly loyal) or Shapers. He can go fight bandits or something or better, work in the fields and stump those critters the Takers or Barzites send out to destroy crops. 

1 hour ago, Slarzahl said:

Is a war with no end in sight victory?  Because that's what the Takers and Barzites get.

But the Taker and Barzhite war have "no end in sight" just for the forseable future. It is easy to assume the Takers may win after 20-30 years of extremely brutal warfare that leaves entire provinces as ruined wasteland, crawling with shredbugs and whatever those new pests the Takers threw on the Servants are called.  
We can assume the Barzhites have a decent chance to win throwing armies of cannister junkies on enemy Guardians to the same effect. 

For the Awakened, at most, they will get the valley at peace and shadow-road a few thousand serviles there, with an eye on how much population the valley can support and all the while fighting renewed Shaper attacks. And after the Serviles start growing too many there will be a system of saving those that are the most helpful to the Awakened Nation, not those that want liberty the most. You will have Serviles saying they don't want more Serviles to come and that the Awakened Nation's obligation is only to the Serviles-within-borders etc. Asylum committees will be set up and all.  
Pinner's ideals are pure but what about three leaders down the line? How long before the Awakened Nation gets an anti-immigration movement and how long, in the face of Shaper Retaliations of stealing Serviles and increasing population, that xenophobic faction gains power? 

Is that what Elirah would want?  

3 hours ago, Slarzahl said:

 

This isn't fully true -- in their ending, they raid Rising, going on the offensive to absorb the research and resources of the Barzites.  It's not clear to me that this is any less effective a setup than what the Takers have, particularly given Akkat as an example of problems with their approach (which they have to turn to a Shaper to resolve).  The Barzites presumably have a few more actual Shapers, but most of the "Shapers" we see are just canistered-up commons.

The Takers have the Geneforge though. They can make Shapers not just Cannistered-Commons like Rawals agents (not capital A, the cannistered-up people he uses). 

The failure rate of the geneforge for humans is ... well not that bad! Presumably not as bad as the Tuldaric's ritual on Serviles. 

37 minutes ago, earanhart said:

The explanation I can think of here is that the Awakened don't care about Drayk Rights. They'd be happy to let Drayks remain Banned. They only want Servile Rights.

I don't think that is remotely true. I think the Drayks decided to abandon the Awakened and join the Takers. Because the Shapers don't want to talk to the Drayks, they want to kill the drayks. Wyx places it very well. 

Also, Wyx is a rogue drayk. That you can command. Which Lying Zackary the Deceiver tells you it is impossible. Not hard, impossible. 

37 minutes ago, earanhart said:

We see them send exactly ONE Drayk, and a few skilled Serviles. Most of the problems the Awakened are having appear to be from actual Rogues, and even moreso from former Awakened Rogues.

It is not the Barzhites that put up those Spawners, and it is more than "A few rogues". The Takers are spamming Rogues, Litalia-like tactic of making them, sending them away and then severing control, and they send them to starve the Awakened. 

The Awakened are downright besieged by the Takers, while the Barzhites have much less of an issue (well, they are stronger) and the Servants are taking the less attacks (they are far away though).  

37 minutes ago, earanhart said:

We don't see a single defensive construction by the Takers from Medab to Zhass-Uss.

Because the Awakened are "Defend and talk it out, even in the face of a freaking siege". The Awakened plan is to give 50 chances or so to the Takers. They eventually kill their leaders hoping to stop much of the bloodshed and give a chance to the Takers to sue for peace before the "I win" button of hundreds of powerful flying Drakons taking down the Takers. 

Zhass-Uss is not attacked and the Awakened have not sent spies to them, which Pinner admits it was a mistake.

37 minutes ago, earanhart said:

but the Awakened being the first belligerents makes more sense than the Takers attacking unprovoked.

Not really, no. The Awakened are seen by both Takers and Barzhites as the weak-link. The Takers attack because they are not afraid of retaliation. Many of the Takers hate the Awakened because they are ideologically impure. Check civil wars; the moderates have it worst and those branded as traitors to the cause are the first to be attacked. For pragmatist Takers, the Awakened are easy targets for loot, glory, and research. 

If the Takers take over the Awakened, they can open a second front on the side of the Barzhites to squeeze them like bugs, and have a big buffer zone for the inevitable Shaper retaliation. 

It makes absolute tactical sense for the Takers to attack the Awakened when in a stalemate with the Barzhites and it is also very understandable for the rank-and-file that hate the "traitors". 

5 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

It's absolutely a great addition. I want to hear about cultures native to the Ashen Isles in the 3 remake and what their perspective on the war is.

I am pretty sure those islands were not inhabited, or were inhabited by a few fishermen. They are crap even after centuries of Shaper control. 

4 hours ago, Slarzahl said:

They are not too good for that.  Read their ending.  They do just as well as the Rebels eventually do, and create a less miserable existence for their own members.

I will see how the new finale plays out, but an eternal stalemate (even if it is that) is not victory.

35 minutes ago, Slarzahl said:

The Awakened aren't perfect.  Is that disqualifying to "being the good guys"?  It's the good guys, not the perfect guys, surely... is "good" really supposed to be a binary quality?  There's no shades of good?

 

The Awakened do some things that aren't good, by any standards, but it's kind of ridiculous to hand-wave their intentions, their actions, or the outcome of their actions and say "yup no difference from the other factions."  Their ending is less destructive than the others, full stop.

And on top of that, their ideology is the most benign. In fact, they are too good to win a war against the Shapers. The Awakened want justice, peace and freedom. Nothing more. 

14 minutes ago, Val Ritz said:

Now, with a lot of those details set down and iterated on, the addition of the "old cultures" through the Turabi feels like a whole new worldspace to explore. If nothing else, it feels like writing experience from Avadon that's paying dividends for these remakes.

We hear about the old cultures here and there in the games, and there are different cultures that play a significant role in GF5. 

The awakened are not Slavers. Tuldaric's target-practice creations are rogues they have captured, and those are unintelligent beings. You don't see Taker Serviles used as target practice. 

Furthermore some soldiers being not-exactly-brave doesn't paint the faction as non-good. The Awakened morals are good morals. How closely the individual Awakened follows them is up to the person. The Shaper doctrine is oppressive and evil. The Taker doctrine espouses intellectual genocide (and for a good reason...) and no-holds-barred fight (again, for understandable reasons). The Barzhites... well, they don't even pretend to not be evil, they just think they should be allowed to be evil and powerhungry and the Shaper Law is too tame for them. 

The Awakened assassinating enemy leaders and dangerous radicals is absolutely justified; those three Drakons Drayks leading the ideologically closer party, are in open war with the Awakened, sending monsters to kill them and pests to ruin their lands. This is killing the leadership of the enemy army to end the war. The Takers are not attacking the Servants in full force. Noooope, they save their vengeance and the majority of their energy to fight the Awakened. It is no surprise that the Awakened want the leaders dead in a (predictably naive) assumption that this may lead to the Takers humbled, returning back to the Fold.  

No, the Awakened killing the leaders of the enemy faction that targets them is the Awakened attempt to give a second chance to the Takers, before they will have to crush them with the Barrier of the Winds. It is what is required to extend a bloodied olive branch to the Takers, hoping they will take it (or some of them will take it) before the Awakened press the "I win" button. It is mercy towards the mid-rank and rank-and-file Taker Servile of "we can kill your leaders and we can defeat the Shapers. Join us before it is too late". 

6 hours ago, oceanes said:

Speaking to the original topic of this thread, I find it hilarious that the only leader who seems to explicitly support indigenous nationhood is Barzahl of all people, even if he's only using it as a lever for war support. The more I look at his characterization, the more I'm reminded of Count Dooku, perhaps crossed with Saruman. Does anyone know if this whole utopian strain to Barzhite thought is new to the remake? I've also noticed that the Takers are quick to say that they sympathize with the commons, and Jeff seems to take care to prevent them from being characterized as anti-human. I wonder if that will last?

I think the Barzhites talked about their Utopia in O-GF2 too. And they walk the walk on that. It was not Lying Zackary the Deceiver that made the valley lush. And for all my love for Awakened, without the Barzhites, they don't do well as evident when you go out of Medhab in that bridge and you are told the fields are weak, or when you go closer to the Taker lands and you are told the valley is not well transformed there. 

7 hours ago, Slarzahl said:

Syros was pretty rational in G1 too.  As was Gnorrel.  As will be Greta, and as, even, will be Ghaldring.  The Takers/Rebels do seem to include a lot of mob-violence types but rarely in leadership positions, which I guess speaks to relatively good management on the part of the Syros-types.  (Witness recruiting you to deal with Akkat in G2.)

He was still an arrogant butthole in GF1-M, as far as I recall. Greta is limited in her role as leader because she is moderate;  Litalia leads the human faction of the Rebellion in GF4 and in GF5, the humans are mostly sidelined. Ghaldring appears rational but he tries to bring the Drakon Lifecrafter Empire after the fall of the Shaper Empire. Well, that's not irrational, but it is backstabbing all of us except his buddies. 

The Takers/Rebels seem to include at least a Drakon in each game that wants you to kill the competition inside their own faction. 

14 minutes ago, earanhart said:

I think there's also a matter of players not familiar with the series other than Mutagen (maybe) and Infestation not realizing that a core theme is that there are no good guys with power in this world. The Awakened are the only faction who the player is introduced to as if they were "the good guys".

 

[a nice breakdown of the factions]

To a player who is just meeting this world and is used to games where there is a Light Side or a Good Path and a Dark Side or an Evil Path, which one do you join? According to Steam stats, most gamers play the Good/Righteous/etc. path of a game before the Evil one. The Awakened are the closest GF2 has to a 'good guy' path.

 

The Awakened are the good guys. But morals don't often win wars. In a few cases, yes. Not often. 

As for the Takers, BEFORE you are given a chance to be tolerated, they are fighting you and they are fighting those nice people you met that want peace. They are presented as dangerous radicals that would use every trick at their disposal to win. 
Which is exactly what they are, BTW. 

The fact that for them it is a fight for the right to exist, not the right to be free, is not something that comes up until after you have been attacked a bunch of times by Takers. 

7 hours ago, Slarzahl said:

Rotdhizons are crazy expensive compared to Rotghroths, have lower damage potential, and while the resistances are neat and do make them tanky -- you have to pay extra essence for those as well.  (Also, the active 40% resistance is only to physical and acid, not everything.)

Yes. I have seen all those too. Which is why I said I would need 14 essence mastery and end-level to get 4x4 (four tier four) creations, and even then, the non-Primary ones would be far more expensive (bought levels) and still way below the level I need. 

And if I invest that heavily in essence mastery, my primary Shaping class will take a severe hit. 

I am all about playing suboptimal if it is fun, but buying up to 11 essence mastery by the end game is going to seriously gimp my character. 

It is quite clear you cannot have all the top-tiers. Even getting Rotdhizons, requires battle shaping 5. Battle Shaping 5 requires me to buy 2 more battle shaping. Gazers require me to buy magic shaping 2 (and then wear my magic armor for 3, shape and ditch the armor). And if I do that, the Gazer would be easily 10 levels below the Drakons. At that point, I would be much better off with another drayk. 

I bought Vlish from Carnelian and the ones I can make, even if I buy every level I can for them, are much weaker than my Fyora. 

Look, the TL;DR version is: dreaming of the 4x4 is good... as a dream. I have managed it in the past. Now, it is a serious handicap, not just suboptimal, like the challenges people like, like playing solo or pacifist. It requires serious investment of my finite amount of skill points for something very suboptimal.  

Even if you get the 4x4, the huge level disparity would make your non-primaries as useful as tier 3 of your main path. 

47 minutes ago, oceanes said:

This is a bit of a digression, but I can't help but ask, have you ever read Ursula K. LeGuin's short story "Those who walk away from Omelas"? It presents a moral quandary that has bearing on the discussions here, and is one of the things that convinced me not to be a utilitarian ethicist. If not, I can't recommend it enough. 

Sounds good, I will look it up. 

Indeed, but as I said, the previous time they were convincing that my place was with the Awakened... XD 

Anyway, some Takers are moderate Takers. But the greatest danger to a fanatic is not the enemy, it is the moderates. The moderates are eaten up first in such disputes. Also, the moderates in a civil war are the ones that least expect to be brutally attacked. 

From what I have seen, when there is a civil war or ideological war between fanatics A and B, with AB moderates somewhere in between, the A will see AB and B as enemies while the B will see AB and A as enemies. For A, AB are 90% guilty. For B AB are also 90% guilty. And for many of those, the AB are traitors not just enemies. For the rest... AB are often easier targets! Either because AB have to defend against both sides or because AB have some faith in A and B and the peaceful solution or a combination of both. I.e. AB are ideologically weaker so the enemies easier to take out. 

13 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Fire or magic are best for range attacks while battle is meant mostly for melee fighting. Iron claw bugs and rotghroths at least have some range area effect attacks and more resistance and health to keep them alive.

 

Fire is probably easier for a creation class for guardians and agents since it costs less in skill points and essence usually. Id you can afford it magic does have benefits with acid attacks, buffing vlish and eventually gazers.

And I cheat-saw Rotdhizons and they are absolute beasts in battle. I mean, they can get a passive 30% resistance + an active 40% resistance.... that is nuts. That works out as 52% resistance to all, effectively doubling their already high hp. 

Look, let's be honest here: There are no bad paths. All tier 4s are awesome. Sure, sure, Battle Alphas are disappointing compared to Ghaalks and Drayks, but I think they have that leap, which makes them not-useless and their damage scales with level. 

Now, the Clawbugs (not the iron ones) were a real disappointment. 

Thank you, Twini, for reminding me why I strongly dislike the Shapers to start with. 

And now, I also feel guilty for using pyroroamers in GF1-M. They were... convenient. Exactly as Twini says. They were to be made in suffering and swiftly die because the Sholai held a bridge and it was convenient to send pyroroamers. I was not aware they were in pain, to be honest. I thought they were not. But I knew very well that I was Shaping them, giving them life, only for the few minutes they needed to rush to the bridge and suicide-bomb the turrets. 

To my defense, I don't buy Overload for my Creations. Well, if I go back to Rots I will, cause I don't care about Rots. If the Shapers were killing Rots I would find it questionable bit not a reason to go to war. I don't know why. 

At the time, in the Awakened lands, watching what the Awakened have suffered and what they are willing to accept from the Shapers, I am of half-a-mind to jump ship and join the Takers.

Back in GF2, what stopped me from joining the Takers was, of course, the Takers. I need to clear my mind and steel my Awakened conviction. 

I need to find Takers that will insult me and talk of genocide and work against completely innocent Serviles of the Awakened for their lack of "ideological purity." 

Frankly, GF2 is "The best argument against a faction is talking to members of that faction and seeing their lands." 

After the shock of Tuldaric's madness and callousness, after the pacificist naivety of Pinner when my blood boils seeking Shaper heads... I need to find Takers to remind me why I prefer the Awakened. 

I did some rough calculations. No, this is not for an optimized run, but for what I think I would like most. 

In order to have have:

2 well built Drakons (all abilities+1 level) I would need 118 essence. 

1 well built Drayk (4 abilities+3 levels) I would need 38 essence

1 Well built Ur-Drakon (4 abilities) I would need 66 essence

1 Rotdhizon/Gazer (all abilities+2/4 levels to account for lacking Battle/Magic shaping) I would need 75/70 essence. 

I would need about 297 Essence. Leaving a little essence for spells and healing, that's 310 essence. 

Considering I am not a completionist, I will probably be end-game at level 18-19. 

To have that dream team by level 18, I would need 14 essence mastery for 304 essence. Assuming I grab three of those free Essence Mastery things, I would need to buy up essence mastery up to 11. I realize this will kinda hamper my creations as essence mastery is anything but cheap. But it is something I need to consider. 

Chances are, I will never have that dream team...

6 minutes ago, mikeprichard said:

Guess you sold the residue or mandrake... I think there's just barely enough residue/mandrake throughout the entire game to get all upgrades, but since it looks like you're still fairly early, you should be able to at least collect enough to fully upgrade one of the three artifacts. As I see you're playing as a Shaper, only the Helix Ring is likely to be of use to you anyway IMO.

I didn't sell any mandrake or residue. But I plan to charge my Felix on the guy that killed Shanti as soon as possible. And I have no residue nor I was planning to fight the Infernals.

6 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

His resistance is mostly fire damage. You'd be better off having drayks/drakons use their melee attack against him.

The way I see his resistances, it is 90% armor, 86% on energy, fire, etc. and immunity to mind (or stun, not sure). 

... 

Crap. 

5 hours ago, Slarzahl said:

The enchanted anvils, just like with the other artifacts.

Does that mean I need materials? Or just get them there? 

Wait, the infernal, on top of 800 hp with 85% resistance also has minions?! 

Also, I play a Shaper. My creations do the work. I sloowly raise my blessing damage. But at level 9 that I am ... even with my Drakon, I doubt I could do much to that guy.