alhoon

7 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

Oh, yeah, right. No cosmetic changes here. Nope.

 

This forum needs a double-like feature... 

Things like this make it harder to resist the pull of this beautiful, beautiful piece of work. 

6 hours ago, Slawbug said:

Reminder for anyone else reading: this only happens on Torment.

Out of curiosity (I only play on normal): 

What are the changes in Tricky difficulty? 

I assume Normal is still Normal, without any difficulty adjustments, right? 

6 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

What?  Shanti did make it.  This is about the journey between the Drypeak mountains and the Shaper Council, not travel within the Drypeak area.

I thought the discussion was about the journey from deep inside the "illegal Shaping" area to the Shaper Council. Carnelian can Shape up to Vlish so I think she could be able to make it out of Medab, but again not without danger. And that assumes Lying Zakary the Deceiver would allow her to leave the Servants without arresting her. But someone out of the Barzhite lands... that would be difficult without Barzhal being onboard. 

That said, Zan-? the newbie Shaper that doesn't have a bunch of powerful creations around him does move around pretty nicely after you clear a way to the cities. It seems that once you clear a path it remains safe-ish enough for a Shaper to cross, even as new as Zan-? 

Dawn on the other hand, the apprentice under the Shaper in Gerth that I cannot even talk to since I am Awakened, is certainly too weak to travel, unless she gets a serious military escort from Barzhites.  

As for the Common I think they tell you "Oh, we don't do anything wrong, all is totally legal!" but from the discussions, I think most of them are at some degree aware. Especially in Drypeaks. Others are not aware of Shaper Law as it pertains to Creations. A Shaper told them "Help these serviles build a colony" and they chose to believe that these serviles are not rogue; I doubt Shapers explain to Common what "rogue" is. 

4 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

It says nothing about the journey at all -- only that she is old and weak.  There's no suggestion that somebody younger and stronger would have any trouble making it.

Well, Shanti didn't make it. Aside of hot-blooded Barzhites that may kill anyone attempting to cross to the Awakened lands, there is also a bunch of Rogues on the way. It is not without danger. Not for a full Shaper, true, with the exception of Shanti who is herself young, but certainly not without danger. 

The GF2 "apprentice" is at least level 12 at the time he or she reaches the Barzhites and the Barzhites allow him to come and go. If Barzhal wanted you dead, you would have a much harder time leaving. 

4 hours ago, Snallac said:

introducing the inutile

I remember the inutile from the originals too; Mutagen expanded on them, but so far I have not seen much expansion on them in Infestation. 

4 hours ago, Snallac said:

what's keeping someone like Zensital or Thrackerzod from setting up in one of the aforementioned abandoned labs, engaging in unsanctioned research

Ehh... they trust them. 

In the original, Shanti pretty much gave her apprentice free reign to do what he wanted - after teaching him to Shape a few things. That was not against the law and she even mentions (I don't remember O-GF2 but I think there was something similar) that she is not allowed to teach her apprentice more but he or she could learn from Zackary's trainers. 

In GF3, we have the same with Lord Rhaul (or was it Do-something the Shaper in 2nd island?) saying he will help the Apprentice with his training that was cut short.

I also do not get the "they are the bottom of the barrel" to be honest; that annoying guardian outside of Rhaul's palace mentions something about apprentices wandering around. As someone said in the topic of Zansital, he is like the guy that got his doctorate degree and is now cruising research centers to find a job. Zan doesn't seem worthless; he gives me the impression he has options but he is weighting them. 

I know several M.Sc graduates or docs that spent months to figure where they would like to go next. Not everyone is in a career path following earning a PhD.  

I seem to recall from GF5 that the Shaper Council eventually assigns prospectives to a job, but that is over a decade (and a war) after GF2. 

1 hour ago, Slawbug said:

They were a kickstarter backer inclusion, and it kind of feels like Spiderweb got backed into a corner on that one.  As far as I'm concerned, they don't exist.

They do seem out of place, that's true. I mean, it is a barred island. Strongly barred. 

17 hours ago, Slawbug said:

This mod is intended to offer a new experience for a second playthrough.  And, you do need to start a new game for many of these changes to take effect.

I am half-way through my first playthrough. 
Do you suggest I finish my game, pre-Overrun, or do you think I should restart with your mod? I have finished Original GF2 with the Awakened  and unaligned. So, when you suggest "second playthrough" do you mean... second playthrough of Infestation or of the story altogether? 

Some of the changes you present are very intriguing and the more-quests is always a plus for me... 

EDIT: I think I will finish this run and then try Overrun with a Guardian. We will see if I manage to resist. 

EDIT2: Not that I have not praised this awesome effort already, but another thing: This mega-mod is a dream come true. I have been in this forum for how many years now, I have always tried to "promote modding" with mods big and small, hoping, dreaming of a mod that had half of what this mod promises. 

This is a dream come true! Just thinking of the amount of dedication, hours of testing and coding, days of testing and coding that would be needed to bring to the game Slarty's vision is leaving me in awe. IN AWE! 

2 hours ago, Slawbug said:

The fact that you are asking this as soon as you see the mod, without having used it or looked at it, does not add confidence.

Your answer is of course acceptable. I would just say though that I while I didn't use the mod (yet), I took a look here and there, but didn't want to look at the mod deeply because I see there are quests and I want to avoid spoilers. 

The reason I asked if submods are allowed is because this seems (by size and previews) an well polished work of art. If I had to choose between using your mod or my mods... I would pick your mod.   

But there will most probably be a few things here and there that I would probably want to add (like parking Creations to a handler, a couple of quests to give some followers extra abilities, a different ending etc.) 

Still, it is your mod and an absolute beast at it, so of course we will do as you ask.
I can't congratulate you enough over this and of course I will respect your wishes. I just hope that once it is completed, you would rethink about permissions. 

Can we get some analysis for Overrun? It is not urgent; I am pretty far in the game to restart it, but I would be helpful. 

7 hours ago, Slawbug said:

6) Please do not release altered versions of this mod, or copy and paste pieces of it into your own mod.  In part for to reduce confusion for people using mods, and in part because, frankly, this took a lot of work.

You say we should not release altered versions of this mod. Could we do submods for this? 

If not, could I send you, personally, a mod I have done to "park creations" in Eastern Medab instead of killing them, so you could perhaps include it in your next update? 

Absolutely massive. A thunderous applaud!!!! 

You made my week, not my day, my week. 
Having worked on other mods, I have an inkling of the massive amount of work this would have taken. I fail to express how thankful I am. You did the community a great service! 

Wait, if the disease hits Shaped-people instead of Creations... my character needs to start stocking antibiotics. 

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Doesn't Lord Rahul in GF3 have a Shaper wife? I thought it was marriage to a common that was looked down on, as with Taygen, for info-sec reasons.

I don't remember anything like that and from what I remember from Taygen's info, it is deep romantic connections that are frown upon. 

53 minutes ago, l33tmaan said:

Yeah, but that wasn't an engineered disease, as far as I could tell. It seems to have just come up from people living in a swamp, which sounds normal to me.

Then why did it affect only serviles? 

3 minutes ago, oceanes said:

I wonder if in humans, that runs in families, or if it is a purely learned skill?

If it run in families, there would be very few Shapers left, as they strongly look down on families. You create life though magic, not through nature! 

So, I think it is not purely inherent talent because then it would have been "bred out" of the population. 

PS. I edited my post above after you posted. 

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Trajikov is one of the key examples of someone handling Geneforge tech remarkably well, better than any other subject, in fact. Of course, from a Doylist perspective, this has to do with the fact that the exact effects of self-Shaping developed over the course of the series, but given that Jeff saw fit not to change the endings for the remake (with one exception, in the loyalist ending), it points to the exact mental effects of the Geneforge depending on one's starting point, physically and mentally. In fact GF4 reinforces this, with the protagonist not being mad despite using a Geneforge, albeit a reduced one, from the beginning. Given this, I have to chalk it up to Trajikov not being a Shaper, either technically or culturally, and thus having a different mindset, just as the GF4 PC was a commoner beforehand. There is something about Shaper training, and its worldview that mixes poorly with whatever heightened mental and physical state the Geneforge and canisters produce. Relatedly, there is also evidence from GF2 that the negative effects of canister use can be ameliorated up to a point by spacing out use, and giving the subject time to acclimate.

That Trakjov's madness was not blatant, doesn't mean it wasn't there. I agree that he handled it well though. 

As for the "from a Doylist perspective, this has to do with the fact that the exact effects of self-Shaping developed over the course of the series" ... the PC in GF1 becomes more detached than Tuldaric is, a powerhungry psychopath. After you use the Geneforge and go to the continent you see even Shapers as insignificant insects. And the other Shapers that use the Geneforge if you didn't destroy it are the same. Terrestia is ravaged by 12 Monarchs. 

I have not seen the Barzhite ending of GF2-I but I doubt Barzhal becomes as mad as the GF1-M protagonist. I read in the endings that even Goetch the Shaper that the Sholai stole goes ballistic and lands with a huge force and starts tearing stuff up. 

Thus... yes, Trakjov seems to the be the one handling it the best from humans. Even the much Lauded GF4 protagonist, that uses a different and lesser one goes mad when he or she downs several canisters. 
The Drakons handle the Geneforge and the canisters better.  

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Relatedly, there is also evidence from GF2 that the negative effects of canister use can be ameliorated up to a point by spacing out use

And from GF4 (Litalia reigns it in albeit remaining irrevocably lacking empathy and being mad to the end of her days). 

There is also ample evidence that Shapers are not having a full house up there to begin with. Think of it: 

They are arrogant, extremely powerful, can create life with a whim and they are reigned in by a very rigid set of laws. 

Then, Canisters / Geneforge. 
That's already breaking the laws. So, a Shaper that is ready to do it (Rawal) has already removed the "breaks" (obedience to one of the most sacred parts of Shaper Law) before he even takes his first canister. And he or she does that ... for power. So, again, we already have an individual with the afomentioned traits removing the breaks in the quest for power.

Then, we have the progressive lack of empathy and cannister addiction. Addiction makes people do things they wouldn't do and take risks they wouldn't take. 

Lack of Empathy on someone that can create life with a thought will sooner or later translate on "Life is expendable, cause I can replace it". The thought of "Oh, a car killed your dog? I will replace it with a better dog!" but for people. 

All those are there BEFORE the madness begins for Shapers. 

1 hour ago, l33tmaan said:

Ah, I haven't played GF3 in almost a decade, nor did it really stick with me. Thanks for the reminder!

But it is not just in GF3 though; in all games a disease is mentioned. I mean, in GF2-I there's a big quest to fight a disease. 

28 minutes ago, l33tmaan said:

How come shapers don't do more bio-warfare, anyway? Lack of ability? Actual ethical limitations?

First, everything the Shapers do in war, is bio-warfare. 

Second, they do diseases. In GF3 you find one. Also, the Takers use diseases in their fights. However, in the Game's timeframe, the Shapers are in control. Why would they create a disease to fight 16 bandits in the woods or something like an uprising of 10 villages? There is no widespread rebellion or big-sized enemy to necessitate something as double-edged as a disease. 

1 minute ago, Slawbug said:

For the eighteenth time, the endings have not changed.

ohhhh... so I should have checked the Original GF1 endings. Got it. I will. Apologies. 

I will hold my ground on the insects thing, though. I remember seeing the Shapers as insects. 

15 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

alhoon, I love you, but it is really frustrating to consistently have you respond to things with "what you recall" when you could just look it up and discover that you are wrong.

Ehh... I did look for the endings of Mutagen-1 but I didn't see a list. 

24 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

That's fair.  I do think taking down the Shapers is important.  But I don't think it trumps all other considerations.

 

In the Trajkov G1 ending, the Shapers are taken down, and creations are given equality right out of the gate.  That's basically a better outcome for everybody.

 

Trajkov could do that because he wasn't bent on vengeance -- he just wanted to win.  Okay, lots of other reasons too.  But there are better options than the drakon plans.

From what I recall, Trakjov's motivation was madness and powerlust. He was like a never-have-been-good Tuldaric or a not-trained-Barzhite in my books. Creation freedoms was a bleep in his radar. 

I remember thinking of the Shapers in ... that city I land, as insects. 

27 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

Even the rosiest and most idealistic way to wrap up G5 seems like a worse outcome to me.

Because we don't agree on how important it was to take down the Shapers.

The war and devastation that follows the Drakon wars are what is needed to dismantle the Shaper Empire and bring justice (or revenge if you want) to the Shapers for their crimes. 

"in the Awakened ending, that stance works out for the best."

A perpetual stalemate the sees the Shaper Empire smaller by a mountain range and weaker by a few thousand Serviles? 
No, I do not consider that something to be proud about. 

If I could, I would simply force the Awakened and the Takers to make peace - or at least a Truce. Awakened would guard Drypeak and the Takers could go wild outside - and bring in Serviles and willing Shapers to the Awakened. 
The Awakened supporting all out war is not something they want, and the Takers giving anything to the Awakened or looking for Shapers to Spare is certainly something they don't want. 

Thus, it would be very hard to accomplish. Perhaps if beating the Takers hard enough and eliminating their extremists could work. But on the other hand, a moderate Taker that sees his or her leaders killed over ideological differences is unlikely to remain moderate... 

2 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Sorry, I didn't see it was original. You do want to level up creation strength since that does damage and to hit chance.

And remember there is a bug or something, that items that give Creation Strength don't work, as far as I remember. 

That said... I strongly recommend to switch to GF2-Infestation. It is a great improvement. 

I am officially moving to Lifecrafter from Shaper: 

1. I have consumed two cannisters. 

2. I am paying a veteran in Eastern Medab to care for my Creations. (<== This is a mod I made, don't look for him).

Thus, proving that self-shaping works and refusing to simply kill my creations even if it bites me financially, I am a Lifecrafter. 

Down with Shaper Tyranny! Glory to the Rebellion! 

3 hours ago, Slawbug said:

...except listen to how he talks about the Awakened.  He ridicules them, he ridicules their openness and kindness.

 

Was Zakary (that is how his name is spelled) probably always a shaper who was relatively decent to creations?  Sure.  So, by all indications, is Shanti.  I don't think he's a failed Awakened, I think he's a failed Shanti.  He's not cruel, but he also doesn't care about how creations are treated by the Shaper world in general.  He accepted the free serviles earlier in his life not because he agreed with them but because he is unprincipled, and it was useful to his power and prestige-seeking to accept them.  He's just an unprincipled and self-centered Shaper.

I didn't say he was a failed Awakened. I said he has shown sympathies for the Serviles. Not enough to call him Awakened, certainly. 

Would Shanti have saved any Servile from Sucia? Probably not, to be honest. 

On the rest, we agree. I didn't mean to imply that he did what he did because of his Servile Sympathies and he is quick to throw them away. 

PS. Pinner's stance is open to ridicule, to be honest. Trying to convince the Shapers to treat them like Common is a bad-cannister dream. The way to acceptance and for the Shapers to change their entire world-view is through brutal war and tearing down the Shaper Empire, and to do that, one has to kill about 80% or so of the Shapers. 

31 minutes ago, oceanes said:

True. I wonder if we have a Kim Dynasty situation here. Do you think Tyallea would kill him if he tried to evacuate to Medab and merge with the Awakened? Would Drypeak revolt if he did have sympathies and showed them? Not that he does, by the time we meet him, but a calculus like that may have influenced what side he fell on and subsequently convinced himself of. Zackary is also the sort to view any sort of conflict with the Shapers as hopeless, even more than Pinner, and unlike her, has the option of not resisting. If Zackary dies, he knows most under him like Nora will be spared, as long as he preaches loyalism.

No, but I don't think Tyallea would follow him. 
I do believe Nora or how the Guardian Lying Zackary the Deceiver saved would follow him to the end, if he bolted. She is a father-figure for her.  Which seems to lead more credit to the "soft spot for those he sees as Children" narrative - that  is not enough to save him. I will kill him. 

I actually do think he still has sympathies towards the Serviles! He is just thinking that sympathies or not, he should have stopped showing mercy OR that he should stop showing mercy to rogue serviles at this point. Zackary doesn't push hard against Medhab, he is afraid of Barzhal, terrified of the Council and the Takers but in the end, he throws his lot with the Shapers knowing he will be killed for his crimes. 

As for his view against war with the Shapers as hopeless... I think he doesn't want war with the Shapers! He -is- a Shaper. A bad Shaper, a criminal Shaper, but he views himself as part of the Shaper Empire (and thus, he is irredeemable in my eyes and must die - and yes, I still consider myself an Awakened! I am not a Taker!)

 Regardless, if Zackary was that true to his convictions, he would not have waited for you to clean his mess. He could have send Nora to the Council or one of the 12 Shapers he has locked behind his throne. I saw at least an Agent there and a bunch of Guardians. All of them Shapers. He could have told one of them to go inform the Council. But he doesn't. He tries to have you clean up first. Last I saw, Shaper was a fully trained, albeit old, Shaper. He has a bunch of Guardians. I didn't see an offer to put me under Guardian813 or Shaping a battle Beta to put under my control, essence free. Nooope. He wants me to clean up his mess for him, giving me a few trinkets here and there for my work. 

Those words make him appear far more sympathetic than he is in game! He is a pathetic worm that DESPITE KNOWING what he does is morally wrong, he lied for decades, perpetuated the slavery of Serviles in his lands, crimes against other Creations, didn't reign in Barzhal, on purpose kept his colony a failure perpetuating the poverty of the Common he deceived to follow him and the Serviles that he brought there. While he did have his conscience and is not insane, he is responsible for a lot of suffering. 
I cannot stress that enough: We are talking about the few redeeming qualities of Zackary, in a way that paints him in a far better light than he should be viewed at.

Barzhal has the "I am mad" benefit of the doubt for his crimes. Zackary has not. For a decade Zackary was lying, deceiving and enabling the suffering of Creations under Barzhal and he did that first out of ambition and as years passed out of fear.

I don't mind him at all treating them like Commons. I mind that he changed his mind and wants to purge them all.