alhoon

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

The ending literally says that Shapers haven't been able to break the Awakened defenses. That means they have tried, failed, and they are losing valuable time, money, and effort on this, even if the casualties have been minimal. There is no inevitable victory for them, just a stalemate they can't break. Vogel doesn't say that the Awakened held out for a bit and got crushed.

Agreed. In the timeline of the ending, the Shapers have not been able to break the defenses. They try, fail and keep trying.
My point is, that from what I recall, the Shapers are at a never-ending war for like 20-30 years at the extended timeline of the ending. Perhaps they will need another 10 years, or 30 years. Perhaps another 150 years. But they have no reason to stop, as long as the Awakened refuse to take the fight to the Shapers and actually threaten them. 

I will have to see the ending to see if it is indeed something that seems utterly impenetrable, something that convinces me (and more importantly the Shapers) that it would hold for another 300 years of forever war, even if some tactical genius Guardian general takes over 50 years down the line. 

 

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

No faction has the resources to continue a pointless battle forever.

Not true. The Shapers have literally the entire continent supporting them. Their food won't run out, their components won't run out. And their armies are made with a few words and a few minutes. The Awakened at the other hand, have more limited resources. Sure, the mines in the mountains are rich. But could they be able to keep producing what the Awakened need for a full, total war for 50 years? And what when their Shapers die? 

The thing is that for the Awakened this is a full, total war. For the Shapers, it is not. They need to divert a miniscule amount of their resources, numbers and energy just because of the size difference. They have hundreds of millions of commons, millions of Serviles, to work their mines and farm their farms and make their tools. They have thousands of Shapers. 50 Shapers stationed in a couple of forts around the Drypeaks and sending in creations is nothing when you have 20,000 Shapers. And they wouldn't need more to keep the pressure on the Awakened.
It's not like the Awakened fight back. They just defend their valey and expect that in the 301 month of stalemate things would be different than they were the previous 300 months. 

Unless the Shaper forts start burning, unless Shapers are pulled from their labs, killed and their bodies dragged on the streets, the Shapers have no reason to stop. The Creations will not be free. 
The Shapers are rules sticklers, without strain and war fatigue, they have no reason to change their radical beliefs. And with them in place, they will not stop as they are not losing. 

 

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

Rawal is a Shaper, he's an unscrupulous one that wants power, but he isn't interested in driving himself mad to get it.

As I said, I won't consider someone that has a Geneforge in his basement as a Shaper. He is a moderate Barzhite. Less moderate than Ajax the Barzhite, BTW. 

 

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

Alwan is held up as the standard Shaper that is contrasted to Taygen's extremism

Alwan is not the Standard Shaper though and there are talks about it in GF4 and GF5 with many saying how his new approach is bringing results. 

About Taygen... I am borderline to call him a Shaper. He's not Barzhal, Litalia or Rawal but he is so far out of Shaper ideology when it comes to how you treat Creations that I don't know if he would count. 

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

If the Shaper's most dedicated general is willing to break Shaper law, or at least tolerate his Shapers doing so, the rest of the Shaper society is ready to change as well.

That's because that Shaper is desperate and has seen first hand how powerful the Rebels are in GF3. And got his face smashed in, in GF4. The rest of the Shaper society is also cracking at the seams after 4 years of war. Shaper Astoria shoots for peace and is willing to sacrifice the Storm plains to do it. Taygen wants to destroy everything and get the Shapers back to the Stone age. Opportunists like Rawal, far in their corner, start creating canisters for commons. 

And that is only possible because the Rebels unlike the Awakened bring the fire. Without 15 years of war, without the Unbound, without the Shredbugs, without millions of dead and Shaper forts burned to the ground, without entire provinces liberated by the forces of the Rebellion, Shaper society would not change. We have seen that... in GF4. 

Even in GF5, the majority of Provinces away from the war (Rawal's and the two on the side we don't except for the final fight) have Shapers that do not want to change. That don't believe they can lose. They have lost half their empire, and they don't think they can lose. 

 

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

They can't control a virus or how it mutates.

They can, actually. That's how they heal them. A virus that does what it is supposed to do, is a creation that is under control. A virus of course is a dangerous creation but not beyond the pale. Again, Shapers have used diseases in the past and they do use them during the Great Rebellion in some rebel Provinces to weaken the rebels. 

 

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

Besides it being a weapon for genocide

Which is what the Shapers plan to do anyway. They just prefer to use fire... 

In Sucia, they killed even the kids. 

 

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

That is why it is the Rebels that unleash Shaping in such a way, as it says in G3's ending.

And in the Original GF2 ending, I think  I will check the intro of GF4 when possible, because I think that's when it mentions the diseases. 

 

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

Taygen wanted to purge the world of all creations and rebuild the Shaper Empire with even tighter controls on Shaping and less free will for creations and commons. That's not what the Trakovites in G4 want.

 

No, of course not. I didn't say Taygen is a Trakovite. I said he is closer to the Trakovites in the "Shaping is extremely dangerous and steps must be taken to severely limit it!" And those steps for Taygen include eradicating every Creation and then remaking a few of them that would be killed every year. 

 

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

The oft-repeated, especially by contemporary academics and entertainment, idea that the law and morals fall silent in war is an excuse for an action, not a justification for it.

But the Shapers didn't even have that excuse in Sucia. 

But my point was different. 

Shapers: Purge the Obeyers, the couple thousand serviles that worship us so that we can be sure no rogue survives. Even 5 rogues surviving is bad. Kill all of them, for the greater good. <= idiocy. 

Rebels: Purge the Shapers. Attack their cities so we can conquer them - and rebuild. Destroy their crops so they can't feed their armies. Send weapons of terror to ravage the countryside for people to abandon their teachings. Many enemies will die, but for the great good <== Atrocity. Genocide. But has a tactical purpose, you win a war that way. It is a very dirty way to win a war, but it is a way to win a war. The Mongol way perhaps. 

 

The difference between the two is that the Shapers practically killed the Obeyers for no reason, for the laughs and giggles. 
The Rebels did their horrid, horrid crimes and genocide to win a war that would see them eliminated completely if they lost. 

 

2 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Very well. But know that I enjoyed our discussion. Fruitless as it may be, it allowed me to express my views, even if you disagree with them. 

Years off... 

so it is A4.

7 hours ago, ultra112 said:

I mean we do know the Drayks are largely neutral or flat out uncaring to the serviles' cause in G1 Mutagen, the reason they are joining with them I believe is because the situation bit them in the a** as well, so they had to join them in order to save their own hides. If it weren't for that, they would most certainly not care at all. 

SOME of them joined. Others thought "who cares?" 

1 hour ago, Lorn said:

I've got a question - is there any other game where the player is able to use the geneforge and get the nifty bonuses, apart from G1? Not just a +3, something akin to what you get in G1: Mutagen

The non-spoiler answer is: No. 

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

 

The issue with the Drakons was that they treated the human Rebels as being a useful tool at best and a burden at worst. They tolerated the serviles more., but life that wasn't a Drakon was just secondary to them. That eventually turned a lot of the Rebels against them.

Yeap. Quite similar with the Drayks saying "we need to keep Drakons enslaved for their own good; then we will release them." or ignoring the plight of the Serviles in the barren area they chose. 

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

Invading the Drypeak Mountains with the Barrier of the Winds active would be a war that the Shapers can't win, as the Awakened ending shows.

In the timeframe of the Ending. By the ending, it is a war the Shapers have not won yet. The Shapers have no reason to stop that war.

 

There will be no "mounting casualties of Shapers". There will be Creations that die because the Awakened play "defense only." The Shapers would have a handful of dead Guardians or agents that want to make their fame per year, and that is all. Thus, Hannah's longshot idea is not going to be a tempting offer. For every Shaper that would say "enough is enough, why should we keep ... 0.1% of the Shapers occupied in a war with creations with very dangerous ideas for the 15th year?" there would be 20 Shapers that would want the war to continue. As the years pass and nothing happens to the Shapers and with the vaaast majority of Commons not even aware that there is a war, the "let's go for peace" Shapers will become fewer, not more. 

 

The Great Rebellion lasted for 10-15 years (GF3 to GF4 is several years, GF4 to GF5 is again several years). 10-15 years of all out, catastrophic war, with half the continent in the hands of the Rebellion and only Astoria was thinking to sue for peace, and there were assassins against her. 

Given that, it is impossible to consider that the Shapers would ever sue for peace when so few of their numbers were falling. 

 

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

As Rawal showed in G5, along with other members of the sect across the series, Shapers will look the other way for their own benefit.

Rawal is not a Shaper though; he is a Barzhite. I will not consider anyone that has a geneforge in his basement as a Shaper, especially when he breaks so many Shaper Laws. Rawal was only possible because of the Great Rebellion. 

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

Alwan, the Shaper who campaigned on crushing the Rebels entirely, left the Ashen Isles alone

Alwan though is a progressive Shaper. His Shapers are the ones that know how to make Drayks. He uses Spawners, Spawners to defend his catacombs. He uses those Servant Minds to control dozens of creations and on the side, shape creations. Back in Geneforge 4, he greenlit Moseh, Elaiza and Shaftoe turning themselves to monsters. He is not your typical Shaper. 

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

The Shapers wouldn't release a virus.

Says who? They have done that in the past and it is one of the things they do in war. In GF3, the players come into contact with a Shaper-made disease in the first island. 

 

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

Sage Taygen thought that such a thing was a good idea, and most of the other Shapers thought he was insane

Most Shapers were right! He was insane. Taygen didn't make a disease. Taygen made the apocalypse disease, something that would spread to the entire continent within a month and kill all Creations. ALL creations. Batons. Ornks. Living Tools. Much of the Shaper equipment. 

There was no reason for Taygen to go that far. And the reason Taygen managed to keep his head after that, is by sabotaging or blackmailing everyone else! Taygen was not as much interested in victory. He wanted to enforce his own radical views!!! He wanted to kill all Creations Loyal or not so that new creations would be created and then killed every few years before they become dangerous. 

Taygen was closer to the Trakovites than the Shapers. 

 

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

As for scorching all life on Sucia, that was what the Shapers meant to do. They were doing the same thing the Rebels did with the Unbound:

The Unbound were a weapon used against a continent. It was a scorched earth weapon meant to terrorize and break the enemy's will and ability to fight. It was harsh but it was a tactical decision in a war.  A war crime if you want. 

 

The purging of the obeyers in Sucia for "the great good" is because the Shapers simply considered the Obeyers as rogues and abominations that should all die. It was not an atrocity during the war. It was simply an atrocity. 

It is the same thing as the Romans that would execute each slave in a house where a slave killed his or her master, even the loyal ones and even the infants. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Faustyflakes said:

I am playing as a rebel

Welcome to the Rebellion!!! 

 <==Flag of the Takers, Drayk / Drakon head over two swords. 

 

 

The Rebels in GF3 are not selling their cause well. In fact, they sell it horrifically. If you joined the Rebels at this game, then you are one of us. 

6 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

Likely, the Shaper can become the main Shaper for the Barrier of the Winds.

 

That's beyond likely, considering I have Ur-drakons walking around, that those idiots in Ghent couldn't do. I don't think I have seen any Ur-Drakon so far, to be honest. 

What I mean is it is not "Likely the Apprentice becomes the main Shaper" and more "The Apprentice is the main Shaper by the time you bring the Conduit, even before you leave. The vats are still full, so you don't need to Shape anything." 

  

6 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

Any Shaper attackers would be ambushed or bled dry. The Shapers, being slow and prone to ignoring problems they can't fix, would try and blockade the mountains.

Nope. Any Shaper attackers would be fortified nicely sipping tea away from the battle lines, as their slave creations, as Amena Blade correctly puts it, are bled dry. 

 

  

6 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

Then they could be bought off by Hannah and the Awakened could live in peace while word of independent serviles and commons spreads through the Shaper Empire. It is a long plan that would slowly change the Shaper Empire with minimal bloodshed.

 

Ehh, nope. Not even Hannah really believes that. Pinner says her crap about "We can't do any abomination that would be beyond the pale, so that Shapers will consider peace, eventually." 

But their very existence is an abomination. It is not just the Geneforge. It is not just the cannisters. They are all rogues. And aside of rogues, they are rogues that teach themselves magic. The Shapers burned the Obeyers alive when they returned to Sucia. The Obeyers. What makes you (or Pinner) think that they would ever accept the Awakened, as the Awakened sit in their mountain while the Shapers simply send waves of creations to their deaths, with perhaps a few young guardians and agents joining in "to earn their spurs" ? Or that the Shapers won't make a disease that will kill the Serviles, but make the antidote for their serviles before releasing it? Or 12 such diseases? Or Parasites to destroy the crops? 

 

Again: The Shapers considered the Obeyers as rogues, marked for death.  

 

4 hours ago, Genernumlover said:

Greta, in both G3 and G4,

And GF5, because in GF5 the same thing that happens to her in Northforge, happens again. She is mistrusted and kept imprisoned, because she is closer to the Awakened in ideology, than the Rebels. 

You can NOT joined the Awakened... 

9 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

You can fight your way through or sneak around Benerii-Uss to find the book with the cure in the Shaping zone. As long as you don't get seen by Rhakkus, Akkat, or Easss then Zhass-Uss and the other Taker areas won't be hostile. But what's the fun with that.

 

I have an entire diatribe about that, but it is for a different thread. So, I can sneak around B-U and cure the Serviles and poor Emily without turning the rest of the Taker zones hostile? I have the shame-ring of Sharon that gives me stealth and I think I have stealth 1 from somewhere (I either bought it or got something that gives it).

With the Shame-ring, I have a bunch of leadership and mechanics. 

 

EDIT: So, I don't need to keep Lying Zackary the Deceiver alive any more, do I? He is not sneak-involved in some other late-game quest like Sharon was, correct? 

As I have said previously, the best argument against a faction is made by the faction itself. 

The way the Drayks ignore the Serviles that are suffering, their "the strong will survive, the herd will be culled" approach is annoying me. Yes, Freedom comes with responsibilities and self-rule of the Serviles is not a bad thing.
But a Servile is not a drayk! The Drayks could have spent a few hours and get a few hits to clear out the spinecores in the farms. The Serviles cannot. For all that talk about how the Shapers abandoned the Serviles, Syros is not doing that much better. I have seen his stats. He has 1040 hp (in Veteran). He with 2-3 drayks could have cleared the spinecores without getting more than perhaps a hit. 

And what is that Spartan crap about choosing the icy tops that are unsuitable so that the tough conditions could cull the serviles? The vast majority of serviles are not the sharpest tools in the shed. If Syros et Co told them "we will settle here, it is defensible AND the cold will make us strong!" they would believe them. And then, the babies started dying which the Drayks don't care about. 

 

I am slowly moving closer to the Awakened again. If only I could convince Pinner to wage war instead of defend in case of war... 
I honestly prefer the Rebels from the Takers. 

 

The Serviles and Emily are still diseased. Unlike the Awakened, Emily doesn't have Carnelian to help her and I couldn't do anything about it. Carnelian told me that I need to deal with the disease of the Serviles and the cure would be the same. The cure for the Serviles is apparently in Beneri-Uss! 
I am an Awakened, is it possible to get the cure without turning the Takers Hostile? 

The Cannon ending is apocalypse now. Diseases and rogues plague Terrestia as the Rebellion grows. It was glorious. Well, not for the people there. But you get my point. Shapers were caught unaware by the size of our Rebellion and entire cities and castles were liberated before they knew what hit them. 

 

My opinion on what bothers Alwan: Except perhaps the most pro-Shaper routes, you do things he disapproves of. 

My opinion on what bothers Greta: She is not a bad person. Even in your Pro-Rebellion route, you do crimes she disagrees with. <= I say that because the only realistic reason given for the PC to join the woman that killed his friends and classmates is for the power. The Rebels in GF3 are horrible and they make mad decisions. I mean, you already convinced Lankan to oppose the Shapers Litalia. You don't have to keep sending monsters to kill him with your answer to his pleas being "Look, I will remake you so that you will be strong enough to fight back. But the monsters will keep coming."  

 

Lankan is a moderate Barzhite, in my eyes. Do you see that guy with anger issues that wants his friends to sit in the mud after taking a few more cannisters, as someone that will treat Serviles and Creations he makes with the respect he didn't show the Common? After-cannister madness sets in? Or as bigger living tools and batons? 
And Litalia is encouraging this. 

5 hours ago, Amira The Hot Potato said:

Small side note: theres like 2(?) shapers in that awakened school/library complex but I don't think they were very skilled

Oh, you are right. 

So, with a few shapers there, we are not at "Tuldaric & 2 freshly mint Shapers" but to "Tuldaric and a handful of Shapers" 

And Emily saved Lying Zackary the Deceiver - for today at least. 
I was walking in Drypeak, to kill him. Not to chat, not for a mission. I just decided his life should end at the teeth of Fireheart, the Drayk the servants taught me how to make and that is still alive (I load when he dies, and he dies a lot to the point I consider buying endurance for him). 

As I approach the Great Fraudster with murderous intent and an evil, cruel smile on my face... before I can click on him and attack, he suddenly starts a dialogue about Emily being in trouble. 

 

Very well played, Zackary. I see how you managed to keep your head so far. You keep it again. Your misdirection worked. Today. But soon, you will run out of lies. 

@Drayk Armitage

Indeed, the situation with the Awakened doesn't seem as bleak right now. We finished the Barrier of the Winds. I brought my concerns to Learned Varkan, not Pinner about "a handful of Drakons" holding back the Shapers and he said something I have not considered: 

The passages can be sealed off. Attacks from the Sky would be the main issue and the Barrier of Winds can take care of an Aerial attack. 

 

It still does not solve the major issue of the diseases Shaper can make to kill Creations. 
It doesn't solve the other major issue that powerful as that handful of flying Drakons is, 50 Shapers could Shape 300 Wingbolts and send them against the Drakons. Then, after the Wingbolts are spent, send another wave. And another. I am not talking big, vat-made Wingbolts. The Rank-and-file wingbolts a Shaper can make with essence and a few minutes is more than enough to wound a drakon. The Shapers can make aerial attacks in vastly greater numbers and faster than the Awakened can make Flying Drakons. What I mean, is that the Shapers can Zerg the Awakened despite the power of the Flying Drakons. That it doesn't happen, stretches believability.

It also doesn't solve the potential issue of an agent or two sneaking in and sabotaging the Barrier - when the Shapers eventually learn through spies where and what it is. That it doesn't happen within the timeframe of the ending-I-have-yet to see, doesn't mean it would never happen or that it could never happen. 

Another issue it doesn't solve is that the Awakened have very few Shapers and they are adamant on not Shaping. They have the gear and they watch the Drakons grow. But a Shaper* must Shape the Drakons.

A not-small issue is that the passages, even if sealed, need to be patrolled and monitored. If creations patrol them, then a Shaper elite force (like Alwan's in GF4) can perhaps take them over. Commons can be fooled by stealthy agents. 

 

But it does sound better. 20% better and still an impossible situation, but at least it is more believable that the Awakened would at least have 25-40 years of stalemate. Not very believable, because diseases and countless wingbolts, but still more believable. 

 

 

*On that: Carnelian is not up to the task and there's no way to know if she will be up to it by the time Tuldaric inevitably kills himself or has to be put down.  Zanzhital (or how he is called) is even further back in his studies - but at least we don't know his potential. Dawn, which could have been persuaded and trained, I had to kill. That leaves ... me, I think. I don't remember any other Shaper that works with the Awakened.

I will look into the Taker lands for any good and Shaper-trained Lifecrafter that the Awakened could potentially accept but I very very much doubt there will be any. As far as I know I am in a very small minority of Shapers that think that Shapers should perish for their crimes. 
And the reason I am in that minority is that I am a player, not someone that has been raised in such a society that promotes Shapers based on loyalty first and on merit second. Simply put, I would have been thrown out of the academy like Greta. Shaper-wannabes that would consider the Shapers should be overthrown do not become Shapers. 

Ah, reminds me a bit of my own attempt. Lost interest around the end of the first island. Good luck friend. I read some parts of your work and you write well. 

1 hour ago, Drayk Armitage said:

Jeff has said they take less time. 

 

I hope you are right, don't get me wrong. I just ... don't see it (so far) from the release schedules. As Randomizer said, less time could mean "more time for beta testing" although, in my opinion, 5 months is a bit excessive. 

@Randomizer do you feel that 5 months for beta testing Infestation was excessive or do you think it was time well spent? 

I Do enjoy the boss battles, mind you.  

 

If memory serves (and it could well not be serving well as I rushed through GF2 and took looong gaps in GF3), GF3 had more boss fights and mini-boss fights than GF2.  I hope GF3 is picked up before Avernum 4 remake, right after Infestation. I don't think that will be the case, but I hope it will. 
I.e. I hope it will be GF3, A4, GF4, A5, GF5, A6.

 

I expect actually expect GF3 to take as long as GF2, if not longer as there are story decisions to be made; it should in my opinion require more effort story-wise than GF2-I that had a good solid story and just needed additions and change to the text. 

 

Do you guys think we will see the boats return? I expect we will, but we will be able to hop from island to island, "automatically" if we have cleared  the docks. Just how we move from say the Magus Complex to Rising with a click if we have cleared the other things inside. 

 

 

Ohhhhhhhhhh... THAT part. 

Yeah, that part is relevant. Touche. But I still disagree. 

 

What I mean is that while remakes take less work, they don't necessarily take less time to develop. Kickstarters should IMO continue, beta-testing is still there etc.

 

And the reason I said it would be "2024 GF2-I, 2025 Av Remake, - , 2027 GF3" is because work is not completely separated. 

Furthermore, I found out the season and month of each release. 

41 minutes ago, Drayk Armitage said:

The data doesn't show that.  See my post above that you already incorrectly summarized.  I'm not arguing with shadows anymore.

The data absolutely show what I said: 

October 2013: Avadon 2, new game

April 2015: Avernum 2 remake. September 2016: Avadon 3, new game.  

April 2018: Avernum 3 remake. December 2019: QW, new game.   

February 2021: GF1 Mutagen, remake. June 2022: QW 2, new game 

February 2024: GF2 Infestation, remake. 

 

What shadows are you talking about? Yes, there are things in your post I didn't repeat nor summarized. Things that are incorrect assumptions. 

New games: Avadon 3: 18 months. QW 1: 19 months. QW 2: 14 months 

Remakes: Avernum 2: 18 months. Avernum 3: 17 months. GF1-M: 14 months.  GF2-I: 20 months. 

 

Both remakes and new games take from 14 to 20 months. Average: 17 months for new games, 17.25 for remakes. 

Those are the numbers for the past 10 years. 

2 minutes ago, Drayk Armitage said:

You're completely ignoring the difference between a remake and a fresh game created from scratch.

Yes, I do. And I have my reasons for it: The remake of GF2 took more than 18 months. Remake of GF1 also required over 2 years. 

Meanwhile QW1 and QW2 were released within 15-18 or so months from the previous games. 

 

Thus, there is little difference between a game or a remake as far as the data show. You can make arguments that this will change and that there were other reasons that new games got out faster than remakes. But so far, the numbers show that remakes for the past 10-12 years take as much as new games. If things change so much the better. 

Going by the later pattern of Game, Game, no game, Game, Game, no year, I think we will see another remake in 2025, and GF3 in early 2027. 

6 hours ago, Drayk Armitage said:

All we truly know about Stalkthorns is that they weren't on Sucia.  Maybe they aren't actually a brand new creation type, just one that didn't exist when Sucia was shut down.  That would explain why they aren't news and even the various plant-focused shapers in the Drypeak area don't have anything to say about them.

Does Eli-something, Sharon or the quirky Drayk even have Stalkthorns around? 

"Move quickly" is "7 years to get traals"