Yoshiria loyalty quest/game ending issue

[Dikiyoba]

So I completed Yoshiria's loyalty quest: started the fire, reported it back to the Grey Raptors, got the message that Yoshiria was happy with me, and lied to Hand Callan about it. Then I slaughtered everyone in the Grey Raptor outpost because they were a threat to the wellbeing of the Pact. Upon leaving the outpost, I got the message that Yoshiria was upset with me, and at the end of the game she refused to come with me to fight Redbeard. Something about this situation needs to change.

 

(Yes, Dikiyoba knows that Jeff won't find out about this unless Dikiyoba e-mails Spiderweb directly. Dikiyoba just wanted opinions and ideas from people here first.)

[Kennedy]

When you slaughter the raptors they get mad at you and likely take out their frustration on yoshiria because she may be easier to kill than you are. So when you completed the game did the raptors bump her off in the end text or did she die defending the fort?

[Dikiyoba]

She refused to come with me and died defending the fort.

 

Dikiyoba.

[springacres]

That IS a bit odd, but I suppose Kennedy's explanation makes sense. If you don't like that idea, then maybe it's an issue for Yoshiria because she sees you as having gone back on your word to let them live?

[Dikiyoba]

Dikiyoba's character never made a promise to the Grey Raptors. All Yoshiria cares about is settling her debt to the Grey Raptors in a way that will let her live, and Dikiyoba did that. The Grey Raptors should be (and are) angry at Dikiyoba in the ending for slaughtering everyone, but they should no longer have an issue with her.

[Davies]

Did you take Yoshiria with you on your return trip to annihilate the Raptors? Because I just did a run through their headquarters without her and without getting any messages of that sort. (I suspect that Yoshiria is actually a double agent for the Raptors, and that her abduction was actually part of a long con.)

[Dikiyoba]

Yes, I did take her with me when I wiped out the outpost. (I also took Khalinda and had no issues there. She's not upset, the Grey Raptors don't want her, etc.) Did you complete that game yet? If so, what happened to her in the ending?

 

Dikiyoba.

[springacres]

Well, Khalida was never involved with the Grey Raptors in any way (that we know of) so her lack of reaction makes sense. However, given that you took Yoshiria with you to wipe out the outpost after completing her side quest (at which point she thought she had discharged her debt to the Grey Raptors) I can understand why she'd be upset with you. She may not be upset with you for wiping them out so much as she is that you took her along and thus opened her up again to retaliation. If they didn't care that she was acting under orders when she killed the wealthy man's son, why should they care that she was acting at your instigation to wipe out their outpost

[Lilith]

Yeah, the Gray Raptors did warn you that they'd hunt both you and Yoshiria down if you destroyed their outpost. I don't see why they'd go back on that threat just because you did some work for them. I'm not really seeing what the issue is.

[Davies]

Negative on game completion, that was an old save from before I went to the Corruption Core. I'll try it again and see what she says when I talk to her about the Raptors.

 

<interval>

 

Okay, I did that, and sure enough, she's all "I think what you did was a grave error", which suggests that she's not going to go along with my schemes in the future. Apparently, that flag triggers when you attack the Gray Raptors whether she's there or not. (Which adds to my "she's actually working for the Raptors" theory.)

[Lilith]

Okay, I did that, and sure enough, she's all "I think what you did was a grave error", which suggests that she's not going to go along with my schemes in the future. Apparently, that flag triggers when you attack the Gray Raptors whether she's there or not. (Which adds to my "she's actually working for the Raptors" theory.)

 

As a further data point on this, you should check out what happens in the ending if you never bring Yoshiria back at all.

 

 

They eventually send her back in pieces. Not really how one expects them to treat one of their own.

 

[Davies]

 

 

As a further data point on this, you should check out what happens in the ending if you never bring Yoshiria back at all.

 

 

They eventually send her back in pieces. Not really how one expects them to treat one of their own.

 

 

Or possibly

how they treat one of their own who failed in her mission.

 

[springacres]

Yoshiria strikes me as being too honorable to be a true double agent. Besides, she's Holklandan. Given the depth of animosity between Holklanda and Kellemderiel at the end of Avadon 1, why would an elite group of Kellem mercs risk their prestige, and their secrets, by hiring a Holklandan shadowwalker two years later?

 

I suppose it is possible that she's a double agent, but I just have a hard time reading her character that way.

[Dikiyoba]

Yeah, the Gray Raptors did warn you that they'd hunt both you and Yoshiria down if you destroyed their outpost. I don't see why they'd go back on that threat just because you did some work for them. I'm not really seeing what the issue is.

It's poor game design. You shouldn't be able to complete a quest and then fail it. Make it so that you can't attack the outpost after completing their quest, or so that if you do, the Grey Raptors come after you only and Yoshiria remains happy.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lilith]

 

It's poor game design. You shouldn't be able to complete a quest and then fail it. Make it so that you can't attack the outpost after completing their quest, or so that if you do, the Grey Raptors come after you only and Yoshiria remains happy.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

You completed the quest to make the Gray Raptors happy. If you then go and kill a bunch of them, they're unhappy again. Seems logical enough to me.

[Edgwyn]

It's poor game design. You shouldn't be able to complete a quest and then fail it. Make it so that you can't attack the outpost after completing their quest, or so that if you do, the Grey Raptors come after you only and Yoshiria remains happy.

 

Dikiyoba.

It is actually more realistic and less linear this way. The whole I am loyal to you forever no matter what you do in the future because you rescued my cat from a tree once is kind of crazy.

[Alberich]

I agree with the last two posts. Interestingly, there are some people you can "betray" without losing their loyalty. Specifically,

after doing the "disloyal" quests for Dedrik and Yannick, I went to Hand Callan and finked on them, but both were loyal friends to the end. I think that was logical -- Callan wasn't in a position to take away what they'd gained from their quests, and Dedrik was guilt-ridden about his anyway. I didn't fink on Alcander or Yoshiria, but the results should have been worse had I done so (since Callan would probably have confiscated Alcander's treasure, and punished me and Yoshiria heavily for destroying Avadon records).

[Lilith]

Reporting to Hand Callan actually never affects companion loyalty. If you report on Alcander, Callan says she expects Hands to have sticky fingers from time to time and tolerates it within reason, but she'll give Alcander a lecture about hoarding. When you did his quest, Alcander seemed more interested in design schematics and prototypes rather than material wealth, so he could probably arrange to keep what was most important to him and let Avadon have the more immediately useful stuff -- in fact, he probably could have just done that openly from the start, but of course he's kinda got a chip on his shoulder when it comes to cooperating with Avadon. Callan does flip out at you a bit for admitting your and Yoshiria's role in the fire and promises punishment for both of you once Avadon's state of emergency is lifted, but you did still save Yoshiria's life. And as for Khalida, Callan isn't happy about how you handled the situation but acknowledges that what you did was within your discretion as a Hand.

[Alberich]

Oh.

[eaintree]

So I completed Yoshiria's loyalty quest: started the fire, reported it back to the Grey Raptors, got the message that Yoshiria was happy with me, and lied to Hand Callan about it. Then I slaughtered everyone in the Grey Raptor outpost because they were a threat to the wellbeing of the Pact. Upon leaving the outpost, I got the message that Yoshiria was upset with me, and at the end of the game she refused to come with me to fight Redbeard. Something about this situation needs to change.

 

(Yes, Dikiyoba knows that Jeff won't find out about this unless Dikiyoba e-mails Spiderweb directly. Dikiyoba just wanted opinions and ideas from people here first.)

 

 

Jeff JUST POSTED a blog piece in which he says that video game designers need critics who are willing to pull apart their games to see what works and what doesn't. Why the HELL does he never look at his own Forum?

[Randomizer]

Jeff rarely reads his own Forums and then it's mostly right after game release to see bug reports. Even then it's recommended to email him to be assured that he see the problem.

[eaintree]

Jeff rarely reads his own Forums and then it's mostly right after game release to see bug reports. Even then it's recommended to email him to be assured that he see the problem.

 

Yes, I gather this. The question is, why not, when he's writing blog posts almost demanding that there be more in-depth critical analysis of video games?

[ThricebornPhoenix]

The question is, why not, when he's writing blog posts almost demanding that there be more in-depth critical analysis of video games?

Perhaps, at least in part, because forums tend to have a bad signal-to-noise ratio. There are plenty of posts that are full of praise, complaints, or questions, but few with any critical analysis at all, let alone in-depth critical analysis.

[Randomizer]

Jeff has blogged about why he hates reading forum posts and mostly it's depressing to read that people hate your game. After spending one to two years working on it he hears that players don't like the old style graphics, the lack of music, ....

 

After spending a few years as a math grad student, Jeff realized he truly hated the prospect of working in that field and was happy to find he could make money writing computer games. So given a choice between reading negative posts that don't tell how to make the game better or rolling around on his basement floor in the money he's making selling his latest game, which do you think he choses?

[Lilith]

Perhaps, at least in part, because forums tend to have a bad signal-to-noise ratio. There are plenty of posts that are full of praise, complaints, or questions, but few with any critical analysis at all, let alone in-depth critical analysis.

 

Yeah, he wrote a blog post a while ago saying pretty much exactly this. Forums also sometimes get really nasty and full of personal insults, which can be pretty exhausting and demoralising to read (although this one's been pretty good lately).

[Alberich]

If I remember, he also wrote a post or gave an interview saying that there was no guarantee that a forum poster represented any group larger than one, and they contradict each other a lot...and heaven knows that is true...but that he consults the playtesters at length and takes their opinions very seriously. (Which is why I said elsewhere that the best hope of influencing his future games is to write something so compelling in the forum that a future playtester brings it to his attention. Which is one reason I'm glad the wishlist has been pinned to the top of the board...maybe it will be consulted by a playtester or two in that far-off future day.)

[eaintree]

Yeah, he wrote a blog post a while ago saying pretty much exactly this. Forums also sometimes get really nasty and full of personal insults, which can be pretty exhausting and demoralising to read (although this one's been pretty good lately).

 

Well, that's understandable. But he seems so hell-bent on championing the cause of better reviews/discussion of games that I don't see why he doesn't *find a way* to make his Forums work for him, rather than them just sitting here providing incidental publicity and nothing else.

[Lilith]

Well, that's understandable. But he seems so hell-bent on championing the cause of better reviews/discussion of games that I don't see why he doesn't *find a way* to make his Forums work for him, rather than them just sitting here providing incidental publicity and nothing else.

 

On one of the more recent occasions when he came to the forums, a few posters picked a fight with him that turned into a huge argument, and he seriously considered shutting down the forums entirely. Providing incidental publicity and assistance with games and being seen by him personally as little as possible is "making his forums work for him".

 

Also, to be frank, he doesn't trust the opinions of random anonymous internet people, and doesn't put them on the same level as professional criticism.

[eaintree]

Here's what I know: I've played and loved most of the Avernum series, played and loved some of the Geneforges, and have played both Avadon games. Loved A1. A2? Don't love it. It has many good points, of course, but there's just too many spots where it doesn't really come together and gel. At the same time, Jeff in his public persona (blogging) talks more and more frequently in this vein of "up with quality/down with mass appeal, down with GTA V and all its ilk", etc.

 

And though he says this, I somehow feel pretty sure that A3 will have all the same glaring flaws, and I won't really want to play it. And that's a shame, because I've loved the man's work for many years. But if he's just going to go on and on, trudging into the recesses of grumpiness, then I doubt if he'll ever make a great game again.

 

Also, to be frank, he doesn't trust the opinions of random anonymous internet people, and doesn't put them on the same level as professional criticism.

 

And as for this -- he hates on professional criticism constantly. With all the meme-skewing vigour of a true internet playa'. So. Whoever he does trust, it's not working well. Or not well enough. Or something.

[Lilith]

Here's what I know: I've played and loved most of the Avernum series, played and loved some of the Geneforges, and have played both Avadon games. Loved A1. A2? Don't love it. It has many good points, of course, but there's just too many spots where it doesn't really come together and gel. At the same time, Jeff in his public persona (blogging) talks more and more frequently in this vein of "up with quality/down with mass appeal, down with GTA V and all its ilk", etc.

 

And though he says this, I somehow feel pretty sure that A3 will have all the same glaring flaws, and I won't really want to play it. And that's a shame, because I've loved the man's work for many years. But if he's just going to go on and on, trudging into the recesses of grumpiness, then I doubt if he'll ever make a great game again.

 

Well, his most recent blog post about Avadon 2 talks about how it was a labour of love and he's very proud of how it turned out (and it's doing fine sales-wise, too). Honestly, it kinda just sounds like the games he wants to make at this point in his life aren't for you.

[stranger]

I somehow feel pretty sure that A3 will have all the same glaring flaws, and I won't really want to play it.

You mean Avadon 3?

[Davies]

Getting back to the original topic -- while I agree that killing the Raptors after you do their mission should probably have consequences for your relationship with Yoshiria, I take issue with how it's presented -- she acts as though you didn't agree to their request, rather than agreeing to it and then going berserk on them. It's a minor flaw, but it is a flaw.

[BenS]

I emailed something about this to Jeff, b/c I think the way it works is problematic. I successfully did the companion quest, and then returned to wipe out the Gray Raptors without Yoshiria even being in my party. But at the end of the game, she wasn't loyal and went up to die needlessly in Fort Foresight. That's not right, when the other PC that acted like that was Khalida--and that's b/c I failed her companion quest. If Yoshiria won't stand w/ me at the end b/c of my attack on the Gray Raptors, the game text should at least make that explicit. As it is now, it just seems like something's broken.

 

Luckily I made do w/ 4 PCs ;-)