No more "Lousy G4 Creations" please.

[Dark Neptune]

Does anyone hope that in Geneforge 5, Jeff Vogel destroy the option to create Unstable Thahd, Charged Vilsh, Burning Kyshakk, Unstable Firebolt, Corrupted Rotghroth(Yes! The Rotdhizon is replacing this pathetic creation!) and Shock Trall?

 

So far, I don't have a single feel for these creations, even though I tried to unleash an Unstable Thahd once(By adding more to its Endurance, and cast Regeneration) in Illya Province and the damage it did to the Second tier creations(Vilsh, etc.) was more than 50. Eventually, its death wasn't glorified. Regreted using this fellow in the East Barrier Zone.

 

I was also wondering whether the Plated Artila could be casted out and replaced by the Searing Artila. I also found that Second class Roamers could have been Vicious Roamers, rather than those Pyroamer cannon fodders.

 

And also, is there anyway to improve the Battle Alphas and Betas? Like give at least a "5% of the time Parry" ability like the Rotghroth? Anyone wondered whether we can even have an chance to create a Battle Gamma near the end of G5 as well?

 

So, those are my opinions of the creations in G4. What do you think? Please state your opinions and let me know. And oh yes, I am new to these forums(But not new to the Geneforge Saga) by the way, so don't be surprised this first post of mine is long. Thanks.

 

UPDATE: I take back some of my words. I tried unleashing a Burning Kyshakk and a Unstable Firebolt at Illya Safehouse. In case you guys haven't tried it out:

The Burning Kyshakk does at least 90-150 damage more than an ordinary Kyshakk. Accuracy is also improved.

The Unstable Firebolt, has 12 AP and damages at least 60-120 damage more than an ordinary Wingbolt. If this creature is sped up, it will have 16 AP, and can attack an opponent 3 TIMES with accuracy.

[Lilith]

Unstable Firebolts would be great if only they weren't, well, unstable. They're pretty much the perfect creation for killing other Wingbolts. I used a Charged Vlish once when I needed to slow a boss and didn't have Essence Shackles yet, but apart from that, you're right: unstable creations are pretty lame. If every single charged creation that exists now were changed to an uncharged one with no other stat changes, the game wouldn't be any less balanced. The extra essence cost alone is enough reason not to use most of them.

 

Battle creations are all terrible and have been ever since about Geneforge 2. (They weren't optimal in Geneforge 1 either, but they were at least usable.)

[Randomizer]

Jeff fixed that by making it helpful in GF5 to occasionally use battle creations because the others have a tendency to die without doing much useful missle damage.

 

I've only tried cryoas, but from what I remember the others will have similar results. Trying to bring my cryoas through that zone was an exercise in how to tweak a party.

 

I really need to run a shaper, but haven't the energy since I prefer a single character party.

[Lilith]

The problem with battle creations is that they're not even significantly better in melee than other creations. A Wingbolt going toe-to-toe with a Rotghroth in melee has a fair chance of winning; if the Wingbolt is just a few levels higher, that chance becomes close to 100%. Tier 3 is the worst matchup of all; there's no reason to ever use Battle Alphas instead of Glaahks.

[Khyryk Eye]

Has anyone tried getting through the whole game using and only using unstable creations? Or would that get you into trouble with the Shaper's Creation Rights Group?

[Khoth]

The Shaper's Creation Rights Group is too busy making giant crazy glowing dragons to care particularly about unstable creations.

[Dark Neptune]

Drayks are pretty overpowered are they? They do massive damage that they belong to tier 4. Wingbolt are useless if you compare them to Kyshakks. Both deal the same amount of damage, cost the same amount of essence, but Kyshakks have more health and their Lightning Aura does damage to other overtime. Wingbolt are fragile and the only thing they're better at than Kyshakks is than they restore their Spell energy slightly faster than Kyshakks.

 

I have completed a game where I didn't use a single damn canister, and I had a Level 34 Cryoa at the end of the game, along with a Vilsh, Rotghroth and Kyshakk. All Shaper creations. Anyone notice Cryoas deal more damage to others when they were created in Geneforge 3?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dark Nept

Drayks are pretty overpowered are they? They do massive damage that they belong to tier 4. Wingbolt are useless if you compare them to Kyshakks. Both deal the same amount of damage, cost the same amount of essence, but Kyshakks have more health and their Lightning Aura does damage to other overtime. Wingbolt are fragile and the only thing they're better at than Kyshakks is than they restore their Spell energy slightly faster than Kyshakks.

Did you even play the same game as the rest of us? Kyshakks don't do nearly as much damage as Wingbolts; a Wingbolt can easily top 300 damage per hit against a magic-vulnerable opponent, while a Kyshakk won't even do 200. On higher difficulties, Kyshakks also tend to miss all the time. Wingbolts also have much higher magic resistance, which actually makes them more durable than Kyshakks against enemies that use magic (which is a lot of them). General consensus is that Wingbolts are among the best creations in the game and Kyshakks are average or below average.

And Drayks are powerful, but not overpowered. Two levelled-up cryoas or vlish will do more total damage than a drayk for about the same essence cost, although the drayk will generally be easier to keep alive.

[Randomizer]

Kyshakks are only better than wingbolts as lumbering meat shields. My only gripe with wingbolts was in long hasted fights having to wait for them to recharge, but at least they had a decent poison bite.

 

Drayks made decent creations for lifecrafters since they could be used through the end of the game if you made enough.

[Archaeolagent]

What balances drayks out is their lack of mental resistance, compared to wingbolts, drakons, or whatnot. Using drayks in the endgame was possible, but required extra effort either in taking care of them (very annoying) or in acquiring and equipping creation mental resistance items.

 

They are also drastically different on different platforms. On PC their ranged attack is fire elemental; on mac, it is physical.

 

Jeff discussed the battle creation dilemma on here a while ago and it sounded like he was going to do something about it, finally.

[Dark Neptune]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Did you even play the same game as the rest of us? Kyshakks don't do nearly as much damage as Wingbolts; a Wingbolt can easily top 300 damage per hit against a magic-vulnerable opponent, while a Kyshakk won't even do 200. On higher difficulties, Kyshakks also tend to miss all the time. Wingbolts also have much higher magic resistance, which actually makes them more durable than Kyshakks against enemies that use magic (which is a lot of them). General consensus is that Wingbolts are among the best creations in the game and Kyshakks are average or below average.

And Drayks are powerful, but not overpowered. Two levelled-up cryoas or vlish will do more total damage than a drayk for about the same essence cost, although the drayk will generally be easier to keep alive.

The most important part of this quote I have to reply is, "Yes, I played the same, exact Geneforge 4 Full Windows version" for Windows users."

I do not know Kyshakks have a different resistance to Wingbolts, to a significant point, I apologize. Probably because on Normal difficulties Magic rogues around Illya and Burwood Province don't do as much damage to my Kyshakk. As for the Drayks, I am aware that they have low mental resistance(The stupid Vilsh Hivemaster in Kelekee Bridges dominated my Drayk easily and it forced my poor Drayk to kill me in a blow.)

For Wingbolts, I personally haven't tried yet, I just watch my brother use it to deal havoc around the Fens of Aziraph. And Damage doesn't seem to rise above 200. And also, Wingbolts are too vulnerable to Ice, so as the Kyshakks, but not as vulnerable.

And for some reason, I don't see why Rotghroths should cost 125 essence. They should cost less, because they're melee creations, although the Parry, Quick Action and Acidious melee stands out.

[The Mystic]

In the Kyshakk/Wingbolt debate, I prefer Kyshakks. They tend to last much longer in my playing style. Wingbolts are just too physically fragile for my liking.

[Khyryk Eye]

Why not use both? I like having Kyshakks/drayks taking the damage and Wingbolts doing the damage with their kill spells. But then again, Wingbolts are 4th tier creations after all, despite their vulnerability against ice, so they can easily take up to 300 pts damage before you have to do some emergency healing.

[AnarhIztok2511]

I still say Drayks are the best companions. At least they are intelligent and ond once you get used to those "sssssss" sounds, they are very nice conversation partners.

[nikki.]

I've yet to make a Kyshakk. Wingbolts are much better - higher magical resistance, a decent melee attack, and, it looks better.

 

I think the humble Fyora is the best companion.

[Dark Neptune]

I usually, at the start of the game, create a Cryoa ASAP after being warped by Geneforge, and if:

 

*I play Shaper, by Illya Province I will create a Vilsh, in the fens of Aziraph, I would create a Kyshakk. By Burwood Province I save as much essence as I can and get a Rotghroth without absorbing my Kyshakk or Vilsh or Cryoa.

 

*I play Rebel, by Illya Province a Clawbug or Roamer joins the party and by Fens of Aziraph, I would create a Drayk.

In Burwood Province, I would create either tier 4 creation.

Or if I am mad, I would absorb all my current creations and create either an Eyebeast or Ur-Drakon.

[mann]

in the subject of unstable creations i think you can get the most out of them right before you go into a big battle yet they still are pretty much useless, i could see a point to using them if they didnt use so much essence and did a half decent amount of dmg. I think maybe one or two should be kept but what it was in G4 was ridiculous how many unstables there was.

[SamSniped]

basically I use the unstable thand as a suicide bomber.it works in massive battles

[Dark Neptune]

RC2112:

Great idea. But they don't explode upon death. Only Burning Kyshakks do. Haven't tried it yet, but I think Burning Kyshakks could be fun to use in the last battle in the Inner Shaping Halls, either Shaper or Rebel.

 

Personally, Burning Kyshakks are by far the best "Kamikaze Cannon Fodders" in a great fight. Unfortunately, before unleashing its true potential upon death, I died.(Forgotten to heal myself, busy laughing at the corpses of Rebel creations like the Drakons at the last area)

[mann]

burning kyshakks arent the only ones that explode on death so do pyroroamers

[Lilith]

Wingbolts do too, but not for very much damage.

[SamSniped]

Originally Posted By: Dark Nept

RC2112:
Personally, Burning Kyshakks are by far the best "Kamikaze Cannon Fodders" in a great fight. Unfortunately, before unleashing its true potential upon death, I died.(Forgotten to heal myself, busy laughing at the corpses of Rebel creations like the Drakons at the last area)

LOL!!! now,to the pryoroamers!!(using them at chickweed bridge.alphas go boom!!!
going to search for my old script now,if you want to see it go to the newest scripting link.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Khyryk Eye

Why not use both? I like having Kyshakks/drayks taking the damage and Wingbolts doing the damage with their kill spells.

It's kind of cost prohibitive for me to use both. I like to have a lot of essence available to buff me and my creations. Before anyone asks, I play as a Shaper/Lifecrafter, and yes, I do give myself a lot of intelligence.

Plus, Kyshakks act sooner in combat.

[Dark Neptune]

When Wingbolts run out of energy, they're force to do melee attacks, which are weak(Albeit poisionous).

When Kyshakks run out of energy, they're force to do melee attacks, which are stronger than Wingbolts, and if they sent lightning attack to an opponent who hasn't died, the lightning damage on the opponent continues and is somewhat helpful if you don't wanna waste Kyshakks' energy on Opponents that are low in health and the continous lightning damage can take them down.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dark Nept

When Wingbolts run out of energy, they're force to do melee attacks, which are weak(Albeit poisionous).
When Kyshakks run out of energy, they're force to do melee attacks, which are stronger than Wingbolts

Now you're imagining things. In G4, all creation melee attacks have the same base power; Wingbolt melee attacks are in fact superior, because they can inflict poison. If your Kyshakks are hitting harder than your Wingbolts, it's because they're at a higher level (because you've kept them around for longer, or you have more points in Fire Shaping than Magic Shaping) or because you've put more points into their Strength.

[Archaeolagent]

For once, Thuryl is wrong -- on two counts. MOST creation melee attacks have the same die size (i.e., multiplier), which is the part that matters the most: however, each attack has its own base strength, just like different melee weapons have their own base strengths. This is not a particularly significant difference, but it does mean that, for example, clawbugs will normally do more damage than plated bugs.

 

Additionally, Gazers and Eyebeasts have unique melee attacks with significantly upgraded multipliers. High level Gazers and Eyebeasts do way more physical damage than any battle creation.

[Dark Neptune]

Thuryl, I somehow feel like you haven't tested Kyshakks before.

 

As Slarty said, each creation has its own base attacks.

So what Vilsh and Wingbolt can do poisonous melee attacks?

No big deal, honestly.

 

Kyshakks do strong melee attacks because all Fire creations can.

 

I keep all my Shaping skills about the same. And I never bother to increase Strength or Endurance for Kyshakks, Drakons, Rotghroths, Gazers and War Tralls. They're already powerful on their own.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Slarty

For once, Thuryl is wrong -- on two counts. MOST creation melee attacks have the same die size (i.e., multiplier), which is the part that matters the most: however, each attack has its own base strength, just like different melee weapons have their own base strengths. This is not a particularly significant difference, but it does mean that, for example, clawbugs will normally do more damage than plated bugs.

Additionally, Gazers and Eyebeasts have unique melee attacks with significantly upgraded multipliers. High level Gazers and Eyebeasts do way more physical damage than any battle creation.

Yeah, I meant die size. I should stop posting at 4 in the morning.

The point is that at high levels there's almost no difference between most creations' melee attacks.

Originally Posted By: Dark Nept

Thuryl, I somehow feel like you haven't tested Kyshakks before.

I've tested them. They suck, at least on Torment difficulty.

Do I have to make a video of a Kyshakk and Wingbolt attacking a bunch of times and put it on YouTube to prove my point? Because I'm perfectly willing to do that.

[Randomizer]

Having watched some generic kyshakks fight a few days ago, I have to agree that they miss a lot. I got to see their low missle to hit percentages.

[The Forgotton]

well, it really depends on dex, though at base dex, they do suck. for me, they both get decent hit ratios cuz i raise dex and str mainly. works well for those 2.

[Dark Neptune]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

I've tested them. They suck, at least on Torment difficulty.

Do I have to make a video of a Kyshakk and Wingbolt attacking a bunch of times and put it on YouTube to prove my point? Because I'm perfectly willing to do that.

If you do, make me the FIRST ONE to watch it ok?

But I think Jeff may change the Kyshakk's accuracy in G5.
I remember in G1, G2 and G3 many people complain about the Plated Clawbug's and Thahd Shade's accuracy. Well, I must say the Plated Clawbug, if leveled up in experience, surpresses Battle Alphas and Battle Betas in G4.

And Thuryl, don't get me wrong, but I have not completed G4 on Torment or Tricky diffculties.

[Dikiyoba]

Well, kyshaaks would miss a lot less on normal difficulty, and that's certainly their biggest drawback.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Dark Neptune]

Ok, now I am starting a G4 game on Tricky difficulty to see how it goes for me.

[BMA]

play the game, not with a kyshakk, but as a kyshakk....and see the difference !

 

(no, im not from the asylum - its actually possible)

[Student of Trinity]

Of course it's possible. Change the PC graphic to a kyshakk graphic, attack with only Lightning Aura or bare hands, and keep all your skills low so that you miss most of the time.

[BMA]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Of course it's possible. Change the PC graphic to a kyshakk graphic, attack with only Lightning Aura or bare hands, and keep all your skills low so that you miss most of the time.

Not a big kyshakk fan, are you ?

I was talking about using trainers to modify the skin (appearance) each time you press a specific hotkey.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@BMA: For future reference, it's considered impolite to "necro" a topic, i.e. comment on a thread that hasn't seen any activity in years.

[BMA]

Thanks for the tip, I didn't know that.

 

Though I've been a member of the forums for years, I've only recently begun posting with gusto.