Conventional Class Wisdom

[Garoth]

It seems that the bulk of people consider the Warrior sect to be useless with the introduction of the Servile. Servile runs are well-documented, but warriors seem to be used mostly in challenges. While I certainly see how the Servile is superior in the early game, after three Torment playthroughs with each (one powergame, one heavily pro-Shaper, one no canister), I find that the Servile is only noticeably superior with no access to canisters. From where I stand, they follow growth curves within the game, with the Servile being far superior at the beginning and the gap narrowing exponentially until they end at more or less the same status.

 

Typically, I'll play to the Warrior's strong Leadership and Mechanics to conserve some early skill points to boost Mental Magic and Blessing Magic to three each. These need little improvement for the rest of the game, since they allow for a strong enough Daze to last through Chapter 2 and the use of all Blessing spells through Speed. As a solo character, the Warrior can get a quick level boost by hitting the Boiling Mudpits before even Crenshaw's Dell, then ride this extra level through handing Shaila over to the Shapers without difficulty. By using the War Blessing, Augmentation, and Discipline Wand (which is useless the entire rest of the game), a Warrior can push through Burkes Drayk for exp. before hitting the Dumping Pits. Icy Crystals, Javelins, and Daze can get you through the Thahds and Spinecores without needing to rely on luck, and, even with only 7 Endurance Augmentation keeps me from being threatened. Clearing out the Caravan areas before you talk to them and using a Venom Baton for the Pyroroamers lets you cruise through the Cairn Gates without any real difficulties. Augmentation and Speed are amazing. He clears out the Battle Alphas at the bridge by himself to finish Chapter 1 at level 15.

 

Points are pumped first into hitting 6 Leadership and 8 Mech, two extra points of Endurance, one extra point of Strength, and a total skill of three each in Mental Magic and Blessing Magic. Dexterity is the next to get a couple points, with enough left over for a point or two of Intelligence, two to Healing Craft, and one to Magic Shaping for later.

 

In Chapter 2, my Warrior hits up the early quests to get another level and some exp. before training in Create Vlish in Rivergate Keep. His six or so Intelligence courtesy of the Girdle of Insight gets him a pair of basic Vlish (only two points of Int.) with enough left over to cast Augmentation. A single of his ~20 stocked up Essence Pods lets him cast enough Daze and Speed spells to clear the anvil in Sandros Mines and proceed without difficulty to the safehouse. Some sneaking around gets him the Essence-Infused skin from the Turabi Gates, and he makes himself the Gauntlets of Savagery. From here, he plays a unique game, blending the best elements of the Lifecrafter and Servile: two beastly creations (at this point the Vlish really are) with decent Daze and Blessing support; and an ungodly hit chance with the Oozing Sword and/or Acid or Submission Batons. Again, choosing the order in which to tackle areas for experience keeps the Warrior out of trouble, and, by the end of the chapter, he's level 28 and back to far-greater-than-necessary essence reserves.

 

The rest of the game is fairly textbook: boosting Fire Shaping by one to take immediate advantage of the presence of Drayks, creating a Wingbolt for some Fens shenanigans, and ending up with either some Wingbolts, some Drayks, a pair of Ur-Drakons, or a combination thereof by the endgame.

 

Problem points:

 

Killing Shaftoe

Killing Moseh (after repairing)

Western Morass/Killing Matala (duh)

 

In the no-canister run, the lack of a Drayk/Cryodrayk hurts, but isn't at all insurmountable. In the long run, my character ends up with higher HP than in Infiltrator, an awesome band of creation support, and the ability to fling support spells around with reasonable skill. Even without battle magic, they throw around Reapers and the Oozing Sword. So why all the hating on Warriors?

[Lilith]

The problem, basically, is that even if Warriors aren't tremendously worse than serviles, there's nothing they actually do better. Serviles have just as much essence as Warriors do, and shaping skill doesn't mean very much in this game (especially with all the bonuses available from items), so in practice a Servile can shape just as well as a Warrior can. Magic skills are more important than shaping skills even for classes that rely heavily on shaping, and magic skills are also much harder to raise with items, so being weak in magic is a major disadvantage.

 

Hell, an Infiltrator makes a better shaper than a Warrior does, just because she has more essence.

[Student of Trinity]

Wait, you actually can kill Moseh after repairing him? I saw something around here to the effect that he became unkillable after being repaired, so I never tried. Maybe they just meant that he becomes very tough.

[Dikiyoba]

I tried it once. You can attack him and get him down to one health, but you can't actually kill him.

 

Unless Dikiyoba is misremembering.

[Randomizer]

I tried to kill Moseh after repairing him. With almost all the creations attacking him, plus my creations and myself, I still couldn't kill him. It was on torment, but the amount of damage was a few hundred a round for over 20 rounds.

[Synergy]

Hey, another local. *nods*

 

You've demonstrated that any class can be made to do quite well with the right strategy. But basically the warrior and shock troopers are kind of "half-way there" variants, whereas the Lifecrafter, Servile, and Infiltrator really shine at what they do best so efficiently.

 

-S-

[Student of Trinity]

It's nice to hear that warriors are at least viable. I've had the idea that they might be the most logical choice for a thornflinger build in G4. Maybe I'll try this.

[Men are from Slars]

Thuryl put it best. Warriors aren't bad, there just isn't anything at all to recommend them over the others; absolutely nothing.

[Sudanna]

Except for the cool graphics!

[Garoth]

Originally Posted By: ~Nalyd~

Except for the cool graphics!

^Win lol

I've never actually been able to get Moseh down to one HP to know that he's unkillable, so I guess I know now why he's such a pain.

I've always liked the Guardian sect. Even if they're not the easiest (c'mon, Infiltrators are like an auto-win at this game) they always manage to pull through for me to be beastly at the end of the game. In thornflinging, still not inherently better than the Servile, but Gruesome Charm + Nimble Sandles + Archibald training + ultra-cheap Missile Weapons + regular Dex. and Missile boosting starts hitting for tons of damage with Reapers. I don't usually keep save data once I've cleared, and I'm just entering the Fens on my current Warrior playthrough. I'll post a picture of the stats once I've finished up everything in Ilya province (Shaftoe and his ridiculous Aura of Flames-like last ditch attack).

EDIT:

Inventory:
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/6066/tristramsinventoryyq1.th.gif

Stats:
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7829/tristramsstatsek3.th.gif

I've just entered Aziraph Camp Gamma on a Warrior powergame. I have 108 rep, which will let me get Ossissess' quest by the time I reach her. I repaired Moseh and killed Shaftoe and Eliza. My next level goes into Strength so I can equip the Shaped Breatplate (enchanted with a Steel Spine) without being encumbered. After that, another point of End is in order. Training with Archibald will make handling the fens easy from a damage output perspective, and soon I'll be able to replace my Vlish with a Wingbolt and a Drayk.

[Sudanna]

Moseh is only unkillable after you repair him.

[Garoth]

I've always repaired Moseh, just because it's so advantageous for even a hardcore rebel.

[Gandalf the Purple]

I always repair Moseh too, it's just too simple a shaper influence gain not to.

[The Ratt]

Gandalf I'm not sure if you know, but if you try to kill Moseh he takes away one strength and one Missile weapons permanently. I found this out the hard way when I tried to stay neutral and not turn in the Safehouse.

 

I've always used Warrior as my starting class. I use the already high leadership and mechanics to my advantage along the low costing combat skills.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: The Ratt

Gandalf I'm not sure if you know, but if you try to kill Moseh he takes away one strength and one Missile weapons permanently. I found this out the hard way when I tried to stay neutral and not turn in the Safehouse.

Not quite: the skills he takes away depend on how high your skills were to begin with, and you can avoid the second stat drain if you have Khur with you.

And if you have the Repair Moseh quest or high leadership and pick the right conversation options, it's possible to goad him into attacking you without draining your stats at all.

[Gandalf the Purple]

Right, and as my leadership is usually about 14 at that stage, I have no problem.

[The Ratt]

If I remember correctly, the encounter that requires the highest leadership requires 12. So you might want to consider keeping at 12 next time. Save those skill points.

 

Also I believe the highest mechanics door that's supposed to be opened without a key is 12. But I could be wrong.

[Dikiyoba]

There are a few things in the fens that need a total of 30 mechanics, so you need 15 even with the serviles, but there are several items that raise mechanics by then, so you really do only need 10-12.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Evnissyen]

Ugh. That invasion party episode was my least favorite in the game. On my second run through, I stopped just before then. I just couldn't go on. It was pathetic.

 

[Delicious Vlish]

I too, felt bogged down when dealing with the fens. Least favourite part of the game.

 

 

[Gandalf the Purple]

It was mine too, because I had to try and take care of 3 servile mechanics and two chanellers(sp). It was annoying, especially on torment.

[Student of Trinity]

I really liked that part. It was the only episode in the whole series where you have to deal with a multi-zone challenge that takes reconnaissance, preparation, and planning. What I hated was that nothing was done to link the Monarch episode into the main plot, other than people in both camps professing to have halted while fighting Monarch, and proclaiming that he must have come from the other side.

 

I'd have been much happier with few lines of dialog explaining how Monarch was only able to erupt because of the war, and that given the war, someone like Monarch was inevitable. This would have changed Monarch from filler into a facet of the main plot, a facet that made a lot of sense and rang true.

 

So I like Monarch and his fens as a game episode, but I was disappointed in it as story.

[Randomizer]

The fens wasn't that bad. Keep your recruits out of the way from getting hurt and you can just lay waste to the zones.

 

Jeff had planned to make this a grinding morass where you had to slowly fight your way across each zone. Changing the AP requirement so you could attack with just 1 AP instead of 5 remaining made it possible to race across them.

[Garoth]

I've never bothered enlisting help from the Rebel camp, because the only thing I can't handle myself is the level 30 mines, which I can just cast Augmentation + Essence Armor and walk through.

[Goldengirl]

The fens were the only place in the game that actually felt like a warzone. Hope there's more like it.

 

Personally, me and a creation or two usually just blitzed the place. So much fun... Eventually, when I was confident I could get absolutely anywhere on my own, I brought the technicians, and the channelers as aides/escorts.

[Evnissyen]

I don't know... for me that episode was just depressing and tedious. It was a while ago that I played it, so it's difficult to remember things accurately.

 

When I went through there the first (and only) time, I cleared out the fens as much as I could on my own (except the very center areas of each map which were too difficult (I think there was an Impossibility Nucleus in all three?)), and only afterward did I enlist the technicians, which I had to do because I couldn't get into certain areas without them....

 

But I hope I can take a new perspective on it if I ever pick up the game again, which I'm almost sure I will.

 

[Dikiyoba]

I like the fens, up to a point. My first attempt at a no-magic-no-item run was nice; once I got to the healing pool, I never had to go back to town except to complete a quest. It was annoying at first, though, since I couldn't quite defeat the golem and so had to walk through a section of fen to go between camps.

 

Dikiyoba's least favorite part of the game is Burwood. It's not exactly rebel territory if the rebels aren't doing much and the Shapers can roam freely.

[Evnissyen]

I remember the Shapers having an insane fort up there, with deadly wingbolts and, if I remember right, unlimited reinforcements. It was hell going in there. I do not quite remember fully, but wasn't the idea that the rebels' hold on their lands was quickly deteriorating and that the Shapers were infiltrating wherever they could find holes -- which was everywhere but the mountains? I would guess that the Shaper Monarch problem probably worked to their advantage.

 

[Sudanna]

Nalyd loved the fens, especially as a Servile singleton. Get all the Channelers and Mechanics, leave 'em at the entrance and storm through.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

I do not quite remember fully, but wasn't the idea that the rebels' hold on their lands was quickly deteriorating and that the Shapers were infiltrating wherever they could find holes -- which was everywhere but the mountains?

Yes. I guess the problem is that a) Burwood is much more static than the Fens and the rebels want you to head straight to Quessa-Uss despite it being obvious they need help maintaining control over the area along the way. It makes Burwood a rather boring chapter.

Dikiyoba.

Edit: Fixed quote.