A Pol.

[Sudanna]

Yes, it should be in the Geneforge Series forum. but Nalyd was here and is lazy.

 

The pun in the title was intentional.

[Micawber]

The Awakened founder would be Ellrah, and the Drakon Taker leader would be Easss, I believe.

 

I voted Awakened (GF2 incarnation), because I liked that ending, although I suppose the Trakovite ending to GF4 was similar in some ways.

[Xaiya]

Actually, I think this forum is appropriate.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Micawber:

 

Quote:

I voted Awakened (GF2 incarnation), because I liked that ending, although I suppose the Trakovite ending to GF4 was similar in some ways.

The G2 Awakened ending didn't have nearly so much at stake as the G4 ending (the fate of one mountain range vs. the known world), so it felt very different to me.

 

Hmm. Releasing hordes of drakons to win victory is getting to be quite a cliche, isn't it?

 

Dikiyoba.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Anyone who votes for the Awakened is akin to an animal rights activist who is also a humanitarian.

[Aran]

This is defamation. Infiltrators are efficient and highly loyal forces. Why will everyone insist on calling them traitors?

[La paix]

Battle Omega, huh? Don't worry, I don't blame you for the typo. I wonder what that would look like...perhaps an Omega on his chest? I love Omegas.

 

I'm surprised to see that so many people love the Awakened. I like them too, but this is interesting. If there was a sect similar to the G2 Takers made up of creations/serviles only but had more Awakened-like views, they would be like me because I really love creations and I'm always wanting them to be free.

 

Did anyone else get Aran's Infiltrator joke?

[Goldengirl]

Aran was refering to the fact that two polls, the other being the "Favorite Class" poll, have mispelled "infiltrator" as "infiltraitor".

 

I support the Awakened. Also, I protest Suspicious Vlish. Serviles aren't animals. They're sentient, intelligent beings.

[Xaiya]

*COUGH*

Animals aren't just those "other creatures".

 

Everyone in the Animal Kingdom is an animal.

For example, bugs are animals too.

 

However, plants are plants.

Bacteria is bacteria (There are two different kingdoms).

And so on.

 

Though I find it funny how when you say animal, little kids think of those in the phylum chordata.

[Sudanna]

Actually, the other poll had "Infinitraitor".

[Xaiya]

Infinitraitor!

Having Infinitor power!

*sigh*

 

You can't expect everyone to spell correctly.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by No more muffins:
*COUGH*
Animals aren't just those "other creatures".

Everyone in the Animal Kingdom is an animal.
For example, bugs are animals too.

However, plants are plants.
Bacteria is bacteria (There are two different kingdoms).
And so on.

Though I find it funny how when you say animal, little kids think of those in the phylum chordata.

Muffin, don't be a know-it-all. I am fully aware that technically Serviles and Humans are animals. We were using a different definition then the scientific one. In fact, it\'s listed here in the second definition.

[Xaiya]

I had no intention of being a know-it-all.

I was just explaining it scientifically.

 

I guess I did sound like a know-it-all.

Oh well, non of us are perfect.

But many of us here are intelligent.

 

Edit -And I like the scientific definition. It is much more easy to understand. Yes, I do sort of have a religion, but I also use scientific facts.

[Alorael at Large]

Using science to trump language isn't being scientific. It's being deliberately obtuse.

 

—Alorael, who would not rely on the intelligence of Spiderweb to get things right. Spiderweb's intelligence is grievously misused on a daily basis. It is to be feared, not embraced.

[Alorael at Large]

Argh.

 

—Alorael, who is guilty of a very minor but embarassing crime. Pointing it out would be both mean and spam. Seriously!

[Xaiya]

Okay, I never meant any harm by it...I was just stating my point.

 

Lets just forget about this and move on.

 

I also say that double posts are not a crime if ubb/your computer is responsible. Or if you have a good reason.

 

Edit -Am I the only one that likes the guardian/warrior class? I know it is pathetic...but I still like it.

 

Edit2 -typo

[Goldengirl]

You misspelled "none".

 

Also, religion and science are not incompatible.

[Dikiyoba]

Quote:

—Alorael, who is guilty of a very minor but embarassing crime. Pointing it out would be both mean and spam. Seriously!

Apologies, but that is the most defective comma Dikiyoba has ever seen. It looks more like a period. And your em-dash is crooked! Take some pride in your work, why don't you?

[Suspicious Vlish]

Leftist:

 

Quote:

I support the Awakened. Also, I protest Suspicious Vlish. Serviles aren't animals. They're sentient, intelligent beings.

You missed the point. I'm not trying to compare animals to serviles. What I am doing is pointing out that Awakened philosophy contains certain beliefs that are contradictory, much like the individual who is a humanitarian, but also wants to promote animal rights.

 

The Awakened wish for coexistence with the Shapers. They also believe that they should have the right to exist as independent autonomous beings.

These two ideologies are inherently contradictory. Creations can't coexist as autonomous beings while Shapers still holding significant power. Such a dream is the equivalent of Jews believing that they can remain autonomous while coexisting with the Nazis. Pure absurdity.

 

This is why the Taker ideology (and methodology) is so much more tenable.

[Sudanna]

Nonsense. In G4, when playing a Servile, you receive only token hatred from only a select few full Shapers.

[Aran]

I question that analogy, Vlish. The Shapers are a civilization. They have an ideology. National Socialism is an ideology. This ideology, by definition, would prevent peaceful, independent coexistence.

 

The Awakened, however, do not seek to coexist with the Shapers' racist ideology, they seek to coexist with the Shapers by changing their ideology (and they do have Shaper sympathizers, so this could work).

 

To fix the analogy, Jews and Germans can coexist when the Germans are not Nazis.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Awekened sooner or later will get what they want, not all, but noone will kill them on a whim. Just because it's economically sound for Shapers to have higly controllable source of simple things like pods/spores/living tools etc. Using more powerful shaping techs will be punished, in usual Shapers way - to death

OR

At one perfect day serviles and all other intelligent creations will be completely banned and exterminated. Stupid but simple and working way to eliminate threat of another rebellion.

[Suspicious Vlish]

root:

Quote:

I question that analogy, Vlish. The Shapers are a civilization.

No they aren't. That's the equivalent of claiming the aristocrats of medieval France were a civilization. Shapers are merely a strata of said society. Normal humans and creations make up the majority (from what we have seen).

 

Quote:

They have an ideology. National Socialism is an ideology

Huh?

 

Nazis had an ideology. Shapers have an ideology. The mere act of being a Shaper means you must adopt the ideology of Shaper supremacy. If the Shapers find out that they you sympathize with Creations, they drop you faster than a hot potato.

 

Quote:

The Awakened, however, do not seek to coexist with the Shapers' racist ideology, they seek to coexist with the Shapers by changing their ideology (and they do have Shaper sympathizers, so this could work).

Which is impossible. Unless the Shapers are pushed to the brink of extinction, and have no choice but to surrender. That's exactly what the Takers are aiming for, and good luck to them.

 

Quote:

To fix the analogy, Jews and Germans can coexist when the Germans are not Nazis.

Your analogy is crap.

 

Humans and creations might be able coexist, when humans are not Shapers.

 

The mere act of being a part of Shaper society requires you to adopt certain beliefs, which are directly contradictory to creation and human autonomy.

[Retlaw May]

Always with the reference to Nazi's.... Someone is definately going to mention that one "law"... Why am I the only one who voted for the Obeyers up to date... Long live the Obeyers!

[Suspicious Vlish]

What law?

 

You mean Godwin's?

 

And if so, so what?

[Lilith]

Mmm, Godwin Slaw. Half cabbage, half Nazi, all delicious.

[Retlaw May]

I'm just tired of the same people always making relations to Nazis that could just as easily be applied to the side they are on... I haven't been on too much in the last few months, but you still say the exact same thing. ET is gone (I don't know any specifics cuz, as I said, I haven't been on much), but like it or not you two were birthed in the same abyssmal plane.

[Xaiya]

Speaking of Emperor Tullegolar, wasn't he banned temporarily? Maybe the administrators forgot about him.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Iffy:
Maybe the administrators forgot about him.

That doesn't really happen.

[Xaiya]

Quote:

That doesn't really happen.

It happened to me!

[Suspicious Vlish]

Iffy:

Quote:

Maybe the administrators forgot about him.

Let's hope it stays that way.

 

And Retlew, I make comparisons between the Shapers and the Nazis, because those comparisons are appropriate.

[Retlaw May]

Just as it is appropriate to compare the Nazi's and the Rebellion side. Does "master race" ring a bell?

[Suspicious Vlish]

It is far less appropriate to the Rebellion than the Shapers. I have yet to see the Rebellion attempt to genocide an entire race of sapient beings.

[Lord Safey]

they are trying to wipe out the shapers and all those loyal to them. I think that qualifies. Heck they are the ones who released the unbound. Knowingly escalating an already bloody war to our equivalent of a nuclear war. The shapers didn't want that. The drakons are just as bad as the shapers and worse then humans on the whole.

lets have a run down what humans can do vs what drakons can do

Humans---------------------------Drakons

can shape------------------------can shape

can fight------------------------can fight

can lead-------------------------can lead

can grow crops-------------------ummm

can sweep floors-----------------ummm

countless other mundane tasks----ummm

 

quite simply the only reason the drakons haven't killed of the human side of the rebellion despite their almost universal disdain for humans is they still need them. If the drakons were to when the war their treatment of humans would grow worse and worse (sounds familiar) because then they could get away with it. Sounds familiar huh. Also many disgruntle sevirls, drayks, and cryodrayks, have commented that the drakons are simply the new shapers. Every crime the shapers have done has been equaled or outmatched by the drakons.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Safey:

Quote:

they are trying to wipe out the shapers and all those loyal to them.

So the Allies and the Allied resistance were guilty of genocide when they attempted to wipe out the Nazis? If you don't like Nazi analogies, just replace 'Nazi' with any group of elitist butchers (eg. The Turks vs. the Armenians, the Soviet vs. the Poles, the Japanese vs. the Chinese during WWII).

 

The Drakons aren't killing Shapers for merely existing. They are killing Shapers because the Shapers want to genocide their race.

 

Quote:

Heck they are the ones who released the unbound. Knowingly escalating an already bloody war to our equivalent of a nuclear war.

When the alternative was to get butchered by speciest Shapers, I can see why the Drakons were willing to bring out the big guns. You can hardly blame them, when countries such as Israel use excessive force against enemies which they claim want to 'wipe them off the map'.

 

The Shapers are to blame for the whole Unbound mess. If they had merely attempted to defuse the situation with diplomacy, instead of stepping up the war once learning of the Drakon's 'secret weapon', there would have been no need for the Unbound.

 

Quote:

The shapers didn't want that.

Yeah, of course they didn't. They wanted a quick, 'clean' war, where they could efficiently commit mass genocide against creations who are 'too powerful to exist', and serviles who are 'too independent to exist'. What a pity that they didn't get that opportunity, huh?

 

I mean, damn, isn't it a pity that the Nazis couldn't have just had a clean, quick war? Bloody Jews and Allied resistance, ruining the situation for the rest of Europe. Why couldn't they just lay down and die, to prevent the situation from escalating?

 

Quote:

The drakons are just as bad as the shapers

For defending themselves? You wouldn't use any means necessary in order to defend your race from genocide? Don't make me laugh!

 

Quote:

and worse then humans on the whole.

Drakons haven't targeted sapient races for extermination. They haven't enslaved entire species of sapient beings and mistreated them for generations.

 

Granted, the Drakons haven't been around for long, so we don't know what they might do if given enough time, but to say that at this particular point in time, they are worse than humans, is conjecture at best.

 

Quote:

lets have a run down what humans can do vs what drakons can do

Humans---------------------------Drakons

can shape------------------------can shape

can fight------------------------can fight

can lead-------------------------can lead

can grow crops-------------------ummm

can sweep floors-----------------ummm

countless other mundane tasks----ummm

 

We aren't quite aware of whether Drakons can grow crops or sweep floors. For all we know, they could simply choose not too. The Drakons were bred as a warrior race, and they are attempting to play to their strengths. And anyway, the ability to sweep floors isn't a good indicator as to whether your race is monstrous.

 

Ironically, I have yet to see a Shaper sweep a floor, or plant crops. Hence, if we were to apply your logic to the Shapers...

 

Quote:

quite simply the only reason the drakons haven't killed of the human side of the rebellion despite their almost universal disdain for humans is they still need them.

Actually, some Drakons in GF4 felt that they didn't need humans as allies. But even the most radical 'anti-humanist' Drakons (Salassar) didn't condone targeting the human species for genocide.

 

Added to which, I could turn your argument around. The only reason the Rebel humans don't exterminate the Drakons is because they need their assistance to fight the Shapers. If it weren't for the Drakons, the Rebellion would have be smashed at the word 'Go'.

 

Quote:

Also many disgruntle sevirls, drayks, and cryodrayks, have commented that the drakons are simply the new shapers.

The Drakons are often forced commit acts which appear ethically unsound. That's war for you.

 

Whether Drakons are worse than the Shapers is unknown, as Drakons have never been seen to administrate a province in peacetime. But to put it simply, it's not a huge shock that Drakons utilize extreme measures, when they are fighting a bloody war to prevent the extermination of their race.

 

Quote:

Every crime the shapers have done has been equaled or outmatched by the drakons.

Utter nonsense.

[Sudanna]

Yes, the Shapers are trying to genocide the Drakons, and the Drayks before them. But that's not a bad thing. The Drakons are, as a whole, arrogant, greedy, violent, etc. It's quite simply their nature. The Drayks, which started the whole thing, were less justified, but the Shapers cannot afford mercy when it comes to Shaping.

 

You think the Drakons don't want a "quick, clean war" to commit mass genocide? Everyone wants a quick, clean war, except for the overly spiteful or Valhalla-type believers.

 

As Nalyd recalls, the Drakons struck first, whether or not the Shapers exterminated the Drayks. Quite simply, no, Nalyd would prefer that all humans died, now. But that's a bad analogy.

 

The average Drakon is generally worse than the average human. The average human is not a Shaper.

 

Nalyd has to leave now. Evil mother.

[Goldengirl]

Why did this degenerate into yet another thread about the ebul Drakons? Seriously, can't you put it to rest?

[Ichimaru Gin]

[iMO]All anologies are deceitful, that in their nature. Arguing using analogies meaningless.[/iMO]

As to topic: I dare think that reason why Shapers don't even give a try to settle things using diplomacy is this: Rebellion (mostly Drakons) violate too many their ironclad laws. While "being independant creation" CAN be forgiven and accepted ( remember how serviles got to continent in G2?), violation of other laws: "Never shape any of your kind", "Never shape prohibited creatures" and "Only thoroughly psychologically trained and tested beings (Shapers) can shape" - can't be forgiven. The Shapers apply these laws to themselves, without any mercy(and we can clearly observe the reason in every Geneforge game), why should they give an indulgence in rebels case? And the only way I see (and entire Shapers society for decades didn't find out another way!) how you can be sure, that a person, who can shape will be unable to do it anymore is to kill him/her/it. Even Shapers, with their hundreds of years of experience in shaping do horrible mistakes. And I give up imagining what uncontrollable shaping by Drakons and whole Rebellion can evoke, especially with the fact that they don't even bother to seal off failed experimental creations. Eradication each and every rebel is a good deed for all humans in all over a Geneforge World, not only Shapers.

In general, Shapers rule more humane, than Rebels one. While I sympathize Awakened case(and voted accordingly), but their usage of powerful shaping does not leave them a chance of a survival too

[Xaiya]

As from what I have seen, some shapers are arrogant (and racist). They just go "Oh, just kill those drayks, they are too smart". Why can't they let them live? Shapers are smart. Drayks are smart. And they are both different.

 

They could have just signed some sort of peace treaty sort of thing. Besides, drayks tend to be wise, and wouldn't attack the shapers.

 

As for the serviles, well they didn't have much choice. However, they could have hired townspeople to do the work.

 

They could have avoided the entire mess. [stupid]Idiot Shapers[/stupid].

[Xelgion]

Quote:

Aran was refering to the fact that two polls, the other being the "Favorite Class" poll, have mispelled infiltrator as infintrator

Quote:

-Alorael, who would not rely on the intelligence of spiderweb to get things right. Spiderweb's intelligence is grievosly misused on a daily basis. It is to be feared not embraced

Quote:

Argh.

-Alorael, who is guilty of a very minor but embarassing crime. pointing it out would be both mean and spam. Serously!

Well i was useing my brothers profile until i could get mine that typo was me bit**s. 2 letters! 2 letters! WHAT GIVES