Who Should Win in Geneforge 5

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

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No disrespect, Dikiyoba, but you're confusing progress with the end result. If the Shapers are so much as thinking of negotiating with one lowly servile, even if it's to crush the rebellion for independence for all creations (if you buy into that), it's progress. Unfortunately, it requires the rebels to remain a major threat, which is something that can't be risked.

Progress without an end result isn't really progress. If you've made progress on an essay by its due date but haven't finished it, you will get an F on it. If you decide to run a race but decide to drop out halfway through, you still lose the race. If you play a video game without ever saving and then die during the last boss fight, you will have to start all over from the beginning.

If you get an F on your essay, you learn (or at least nudged) to work harder. If you drop out of a race halfway through, you still get half-a-race's exercise, and will be better fit to make it all the way through next time. When you die in the last boss fight without saving, you're all the more skilled when you rip through it a second time.

Likewise, this brief negotiation plants a seed within the Shapers. Sure, with the Shaper lockdown, the effect is not immediately apparent, and may take several years in-game to have any major effect whatsoever. But I guarantee you that it will.

Originally Posted By: feo takahari

Sigh . . . maybe you're right. What I was thinking of was that in G1, the Takers are the fellows who want you to assassinate Ellrah, which in my mind is as bad as when Martin Luther King Jr. was shot. In G2, it's made more clear that they're doing what they have to in order to survive. In G3, you begin to get a lot of quests to protect innocents from them, but I'd say they actually get better because if you choose their side, they can give good arguments for what they're doing. (Litalia in particular has a great backstory, which I won't give away here for those who've only played as a Shaper.) In G4, things turn around because now that you're playing a rebel, you get all the quests to save innocents from slaughter at the hands of the Shapers. (Remember that little lake just east of Turabi Gate where they chase down and try to slaughter those unarmed fleeing serviles?)

I suppose we're just viewing things from different angles right here. I'm viewing the actions in each game as a whole, not individual high and low points.

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As for my saying that the Shapers get worse, in G1 the only one you actually meet is Goetsch (sic?) so you never get to see their impact on the people around them.

...? What about the entirety of Sucia Isle?

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In the later games you always have the opportunity to order shopkeepers to give you free goods, magicians to teach you free spells, and military quartermasters to give away all their minimal supplies,

Not quite. Military quartermasters and the like are doing it because they're getting orders from a higher-ranking officer, if you will. However, in GF3, the PC actually states to a shopkeeper that offers her goods for free that she is in no way obligated to do that. Drastically reduce prices, yes, but not give it away. Thus, the Shapers do understand that the outsiders need to be compensated for their time.

Originally Posted By: Dragonlorddrakon

Thik about it. No town has ever sworn allegence to the shapers without shaper presence in the town or somewhere close by. Fort kentia in G3 no shapers in the fort but a whole school of shapers was just a little stroll down the road. Fort Wilton had a battalion of SHAPER creations in it. Therile colony swore allegince to the shapers cause they had an army stationed across the river. Every city thrived under shaper agraculture and protection. Outsiders beilive the shapers can fix anything with a wave of their hand. People can't function without the shapers.

By the same right, no town has sworn allegiance to the Rebels without a rebel presence nearby. This is simply because, if they weren't aware of the Shapers, they can't exactly join them. Not that I'm arguing this point.

Also, it should be noted that the Therile Colony is nothing more than a colony of cheap opportunists. They sided with the Rebels when they had a leg up, then switched back when the Rebels started losing.

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And the shapers didn't learn anything from this war. Even after all these dead bodies they just got more intolarent of insubordination, more paranoid of people stealing thier secreats and even more strickter of there creations, witch what started this whole mess in the first place.

Think, Dragonlord, think! In GF3, Alwan stated that the Shapers had gotten lenient, which was why the Rebellion happened. Now, remember, Alwan is one of the more level-headed Shapers out there. If he's of the opinion that it was the Shapers becoming lenient that caused this mess, what do you think the more zealous Shapers are thinking? Especially after having their ideals reinforced by the Drakons' brutal tactics.

I'll also add that Alwan's not wrong. If the Shapers had been more careful, this Rebellion would have died before the events of GF2 ever got off the ground. Doesn't necessarily make it morally right, but it isn't wrong, either.

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Yes the drakons would replace the shapers but there is a slight chance(if its the trakovite ending) that they might be reasoned with even a little and might just become more like the drayks. Which is a good thing since the drayks are arragent but they are sane enough not to want to rule as the shapers.

Except for one hitch; unlike the normal being, which usually grows more rational and starts getting his/her head on straight after such devastating defeats, the Drakons are getting even more bloodthirsty. Furthermore, rather than take a step back and examine the situation, the Drakons are blaming their defeats on the "weaknesses" of the other half of the Rebellion. Essentially, it means the Boiling Mudpits will freeze over before the Drakons approach this more rationally. And we've already seen that Ghaldring doesn't have a decent hold on his Drakon underlings.

Originally Posted By: Master1

tooooo many long quotes and such. the only thing i bothered to read really was the comparisons to the nazis. WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT THE SHAPER WORLD CANNOT BE COMPARED TO OURS, JUST LIKE NUKES AND SHAPPING!! STOP TRYING!!

If you can't be bothered to read the whole thing, don't bother responding. This may sound harsh, but the comparisons of fictional factions to real life factions left the station a long time ago. Hopefully permanently.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

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thought we were talking about GF4? And if you just made a typo: so you admit it is progress.

 

Yes, it was a typo, and no, I don't consider it progress. As I pointed out earlier, the Shapers were exploiting serviles who weren't totally mindless as early as Geneforge 1 (ie. The Obeyers). The catch: Slavish obedience to the Shapers.

 

And as I stressed earlier: Joining the Shapers != living independently.

 

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Ghaldring: Um, yes? Wait, are you implying that the Drakons also engaged in negotiation with the Shapers when they allowed Lilita, Greta, and the PC from GF3 to join?

 

Yes. They used to.

 

No, they didn't. They engaged in 'negotiation' with individual Shapers, aiming to turn them against the Shaper collective. They definitely didn't attempt to negotiate with the Shaper collective, and who could blame them?

 

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Check, but not mate. It wasn't as if you just ran screaming into the Shaper camp, saying, "I want to join you and destroy the rebellion!" The Shapers actually reached out to you, and took a major risk in doing so.

 

You think that the Nazis didn't request that Jews spy for the Nazis? How incredibly naive! This may surprise you, but the Nazis were willing to tolerate a Jew (although just barely), as long as he was providing them with an important service. Such as spying, a puppet to keep the Jews placid, or as policemen to keep order.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Likewise, this brief negotiation plants a seed within the Shapers. Sure, with the Shaper lockdown, the effect is not immediately apparent, and may take several years in-game to have any major effect whatsoever. But I guarantee you that it will.

Except, canonically, that doesn't happen. In the Shaper ending, the crackdown is permanent.

Also, even if it were true, it would not be consolation to any intelligent creation who has to try to survive the Shaper crackdown.

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...? What about the entirety of Sucia Isle?

That was one to two centuries ago, and the game gives a few examples of the Shapers changing since then. No more forcing creations to fight in arenas, for instance. So it's easy to believe that the current Shapers have advanced past what you see, and the Obeyer/loyalist ending seems to bear that out--the Shapers adapt enough that the Sholai and Obeyers get a happy ending.

Dikiyoba.

[Feo Takahari]

Originally Posted By: Safey

I think ultimely if you want peace and just you must follow the trakovite ending part way. I admit it don't support the banning shaper. However I think they can help bring the more moderates of both sides to the negotiating table. Eventually the extremist of both sides (shapers who remain intolerant and the drakons) will need to be destroyed.

Returning, after a LOT of pages, to the original topic, I am hoping this is a possible ending of the final game. Since the Trakovites desire to eliminate the destruction that has come from Shaping, and both sides of the war are using Shaping to slaughter a lot of people, the Trakovites could decide to try and end the war first and deal with their long-term goals later. Sounds a bit talky for a computer game, I admit, but since the Trakovites are too weak to influence either side, you'd probably have to sabotage in some way the offensive capabilities of both the Shapers and the Rebels, sneaking past the best warriors of each and trying not to get chopped into hamburger if caught. Plus, if Spiderweb ever runs out of game ideas, they can do a Geneforge 6 with the extremist shapers trying to regain power like the Darkside Loyalists in A5. I'm also hoping that in the rebel ending you weaken the Shapers enough to force them to surrender, wiping them out completely only if you used too many canisters. (Judging from the game description, the rebels are completely annihilated in the Shaper ending.)

[Ghaldring]

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/warsaw%20ghetto%20liquidation.html

 

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Responsible leaders of the "Great Action" ...

Executive bodies: The Warsaw Order Police, a small unit of the Warsaw Security Police, a special unit of Volksdeutsche and the Jewish Order Service. Later SS-men from the forced labour camp in Trawniki played the main part in the ghetto liquidation.

The Jewish Order Service (Police) played an important role during the early stages of the "Great Action". The Jewish Police commander Josef Szerynski had been arrested by the Germans on 1 May 1942, on charges of smuggling furs from the ghetto to the Aryan side of the city. Jakob Lejkin, his deputy, took over the command and exactly carried out the German orders, saying that it is better not to leave it to the cruel Germans.

The 2,000 - 2,500 Jewish policemen and their families were promised immunity by the Germans for their co-operation. As the "action" progressed they began to understand that they were not more than a tool of the Germans and their future like ordinary Jews was clouded in doubt. Therefore they began to desert in droves. The German's response: each policeman was personally ordered to bring in five heads per day for deportation. Those who did not fulfill this order were threatened with having their relatives transported to make up the difference.

 

Good ole Nazis, negotiating with Jews. Guess those Nazis were 'progressing' by allowing the Jews to work for them, hey Nioca?

 

Also, note that it wasn't as if these Jewish collaborators just ran screaming to the Nazis, saying, "I want to join you and destroy the Jews!" Quite the contrary. The Nazis made an active effort to obtain Jewish cooperation by promising immunity to the participating Jews and their families, and then through coercion if carrots didn't work.. Much like the Shapers do with your PC throughout Geneforge 4. "We promise you immunity once the war is done.", and if you ever waver "Don't double cross us, or we'll kill you."

 

Uhh, checkmate!

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

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thought we were talking about GF4? And if you just made a typo: so you admit it is progress.

Yes, it was a typo, and no, I don't consider it progress. As I pointed out earlier, the Shapers were exploiting serviles who weren't totally mindless as early as Geneforge 1 (ie. The Obeyers). The catch: Slavish obedience to the Shapers.

That's a new one. Exploiting serviles they didn't even know existed. How do you propose they did that?

FYI, I believe that if a servile wants to be in the service of a Shaper, I'm in no position to stop him/her. If they're happy slaving away for a Shaper, who am I to put a stop to it?

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Ghaldring: Um, yes? Wait, are you implying that the Drakons also engaged in negotiation with the Shapers when they allowed Lilita, Greta, and the PC from GF3 to join?

Yes. They used to.

No, they didn't. They engaged in 'negotiation' with individual Shapers, aiming to turn them against the Shaper collective. They definitely didn't attempt to negotiate with the Shaper collective, and who could blame them?

I can. Most of the Shaper supporters can. Anyone in-game that's become a victim of the Rebellion's thoughtless acts can. Truth is, the total lack of an attempt to negotiate on the Rebellion's part is just another example of why this rebellion needs to be put down. They hold the same philosophy that the Shapers spouted in GF3: They'll rule the world, even if they have to destroy it to do so.

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Check, but not mate. It wasn't as if you just ran screaming into the Shaper camp, saying, "I want to join you and destroy the rebellion!" The Shapers actually reached out to you, and took a major risk in doing so.

You think that the Nazis didn't request that Jews spy for the Nazis? How incredibly naive! This may surprise you, but the Nazis were willing to tolerate a Jew (although just barely), as long as he was providing them with an important service. Such as spying, a puppet to keep the Jews placid, or as policemen to keep order.

And yet the Shapers did a little more than tolerate that lone little Rebel Servile. They actually, near the end, wound up taking it in. In fact, I'm going to go one step further and state that, despite their general intolerance as a whole, they're still more tolerant than the Rebellion.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/warsaw%20ghetto%20liquidation.html

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Responsible leaders of the "Great Action" ...
Executive bodies: The Warsaw Order Police, a small unit of the Warsaw Security Police, a special unit of Volksdeutsche and the Jewish Order Service. Later SS-men from the forced labour camp in Trawniki played the main part in the ghetto liquidation.
The Jewish Order Service (Police) played an important role during the early stages of the "Great Action". The Jewish Police commander Josef Szerynski had been arrested by the Germans on 1 May 1942, on charges of smuggling furs from the ghetto to the Aryan side of the city. Jakob Lejkin, his deputy, took over the command and exactly carried out the German orders, saying that it is better not to leave it to the cruel Germans.
The 2,000 - 2,500 Jewish policemen and their families were promised immunity by the Germans for their co-operation. As the "action" progressed they began to understand that they were not more than a tool of the Germans and their future like ordinary Jews was clouded in doubt. Therefore they began to desert in droves. The German's response: each policeman was personally ordered to bring in five heads per day for deportation. Those who did not fulfill this order were threatened with having their relatives transported to make up the difference.

Good ole Nazis, negotiating with Jews. Guess those Nazis were 'progressing' by allowing the Jews to work for them, hey Nioca?

Also, note that it wasn't as if these Jewish collaborators just ran screaming to the Nazis, saying, "I want to join you and destroy the Jews!" Quite the contrary. The Nazis made an active effort to obtain Jewish cooperation by promising immunity to the participating Jews and their families, and then through coercion if carrots didn't work.. Much like the Shapers do with your PC throughout Geneforge 4. "We promise you immunity once the war is done.", and if you ever waver "Don't double cross us, or we'll kill you."

Uhh, checkmate!

Ha! And here I was thinking you had a leg to stand on! Since you've made a grievous jump in logic, Ghaldring, I'll enlighten you that Germans != Nazis, just like Genia Humans != Shapers. As a whole, the Germans were more tolerant than the Nazis, but the Shapers came up with the idea themselves. Additionally, the former were using it as a bargaining chip to keep the Jews quiet, and had no intention to fulfill their promises. The latter, in contrast, actually did fulfill their promise.

Oh, and as for "Don't double cross or you'll die", do you really think it'd be a good move on the Shapers' part to let a Rebel that's been inside their operations run around all over the countryside? Come now, they didn't even have to say it.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Likewise, this brief negotiation plants a seed within the Shapers. Sure, with the Shaper lockdown, the effect is not immediately apparent, and may take several years in-game to have any major effect whatsoever. But I guarantee you that it will.

Except, canonically, that doesn't happen. In the Shaper ending, the crackdown is permanent.

I recall it being intended to be permanent, but permanent is a very long time. A lot of things change.

(If I'm wrong, please correct me with a quote from the game)

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Also, even if it were true, it would not be consolation to any intelligent creation who has to try to survive the Shaper crackdown.

I never said it would, but who said the effects would hit the creations (first)?

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...? What about the entirety of Sucia Isle?

That was one to two centuries ago, and the game gives a few examples of the Shapers changing since then. No more forcing creations to fight in arenas, for instance. So it's easy to believe that the current Shapers have advanced past what you see, and the Obeyer/loyalist ending seems to bear that out--the Shapers adapt enough that the Sholai and Obeyers get a happy ending.

True enough, but it still paints a dark picture of the Shapers. Additionally, if my mind isn't failing me, the GF1 endings imply a more ruthless and totalitarian version of the Shapers.

Originally Posted By: feo takahari

(Judging from the game description, the rebels are completely annihilated in the Shaper ending.)

False. The Rebels are pushed back to the Ashen Isles.

EDIT: Elaborated the first quote a little more.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

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That's a new one. Exploiting serviles they didn't even know existed. How do you propose they did that?

 

Are you obtuse? The Shapers became aware of the Obeyers at the end of GF1, and were quite willing to tolerate them, as they believed in slavish servitude to the Shapers. Strangely enough, the Shapers disbanded the Awakened, a peaceful sect. I wonder why?

 

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FYI, I believe that if a servile wants to be in the service of a Shaper, I'm in no position to stop him/her. If they're happy slaving away for a Shaper, who am I to put a stop to it?

 

LOL, what? When 'happily slaving away for a Shaper' and 'opposing creation freedom and independence' are the pre-requisites for your continued existence, then I'd argue that the Shapers aren't making progress at all, because that's how things were prior to negotiation. Restoring the status quo via employing bribery and coercion isn't exactly progress.

 

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Truth is, the total lack of an attempt to negotiate on the Rebellion's part is just another example of why this rebellion needs to be put down.

 

Wait, so now the Rebellion didn't negotiate? But you admitted previously that it did negotiate? Maintain some consistency, thanks.

 

And as I pointed out earlier, there was no point in negotiation with the Shaper regime, as the answer would have been obvious: We will never accept the existence of independent creations.

 

And the Rebellion would have lost the element of surprise, which was arguably the very reason they were able to initially conquer so much of the mainland.

 

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And yet the Shapers did a little more than tolerate that lone little Rebel Servile. They actually, near the end, wound up taking it in.

 

They wind up installing it as a puppet leader in a formerly rebellious province, sort of like how the Nazis installed puppets over Jewish sectors in Germany. Big deal.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

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That's a new one. Exploiting serviles they didn't even know existed. How do you propose they did that?

Are you obtuse? The Shapers became aware of the Obeyers at the end of GF1, and were quite willing to tolerate them, as they believed in slavish servitude to the Shapers. Strangely enough, the Shapers disbanded the Awakened, a peaceful sect. I wonder why?

Well, everyone else (including the Takers/future rebels) wants to kill the Awakened. Why shouldn't the Shapers join in on the fun?

That aside, something you seemed to have missed in reading this thread was that, during the events of Geneforge 1 and 2, I still supported the Rebels. I never said that the Shapers weren't evil, just that by the time GF4 came around, the Rebels had degenerated so much that the Shapers looked like angels in comparison.

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FYI, I believe that if a servile wants to be in the service of a Shaper, I'm in no position to stop him/her. If they're happy slaving away for a Shaper, who am I to put a stop to it?

LOL, what? When 'happily slaving away for a Shaper' and 'opposing creation freedom and independence' are the pre-requisites for your continued existence, then I'd argue that the Shapers aren't making progress at all, because that's how things were prior to negotiation. Restoring the status quo via employing bribery and coercion isn't exactly progress.

Okay... how is that relate to what I said?

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Truth is, the total lack of an attempt to negotiate on the Rebellion's part is just another example of why this rebellion needs to be put down.

Wait, so now the Rebellion didn't negotiate? But you admitted previously that it did negotiate? Maintain some consistency, thanks.

Just using your terms again.

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And as I pointed out earlier, there was no point in negotiation with the Shaper regime, as the answer would have been obvious: We will never accept the existence of independent creations.

So? That isn't a reason not to try, even if it all it does is make it so that the Rebellion has the satisfaction of knowing it tried to stop the violence at some point, and the Shapers said no.

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And the Rebellion would have lost the element of surprise, which was arguably the very reason they were able to initially conquer so much of the mainland.

Yeah, and that worked out so well.

Anyway, who said they couldn't attack first? Quite frankly, right at their apex of power would have been a perfect time to open negotiation channels.

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And yet the Shapers did a little more than tolerate that lone little Rebel Servile. They actually, near the end, wound up taking it in.

They wind up installing it as a puppet leader in a formerly rebellious province, sort of like how the Nazis installed puppets over Jewish sectors in Germany. Big deal.

Yes. A very big deal indeed, for something that wouldn't tolerate creations. It might not seem like much, but considering the Shapers, letting a servile be a puppet leader is a big step, since it puts an intelligent creation in the public eye. Who knows what's next?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

(If I'm wrong, please correct me with a quote from the game)

Unfortunately, I seem to have lost the save that gives me the ending, but I recall that:
1. The Shapers keep the memory of the Rebellion alive so they can justify having more control, less innovation, and less creation freedom.
2. Even though the Ashen Isles are still free, no one believes that the Shapers will let them remain free.
3. We're given the line "until the next rebellion", but given no information on when it will happen or how it will play out, so saying anything about it is unsubstantiated speculation.

I just don't see why we're supposed to be impressed by the Shapers helping one servile when they passed up every opportunity before or since. The Obeyers, Awakened, and most drayks were friendly in G1. The Shapers sent the surviving Obeyers and Awakened running to Tuldaric while the drayks went to the Takers and helped create the drakons in G2. Then, even though they can get spies at least as far as Khima-Uss, they don't make any offers to the unhappy serviles or drayks there. If the Shapers were really determined to stop the drakons before the Unbound were finished, they'd be spreading their offer for survival to more than a single servile.

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Nioca

(If I'm wrong, please correct me with a quote from the game)

Unfortunately, I seem to have lost the save that gives me the ending, but I recall that:
1. The Shapers keep the memory of the Rebellion alive so they can justify having more control, less innovation, and less creation freedom.

Check.

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2. Even though the Ashen Isles are still free, no one believes that the Shapers will let them remain free.

Check, though I think it was more along the lines of the Shapers never being comfortable with the Rebellion surviving on the Ashen Isles.

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3. We're given the line "until the next rebellion", but given no information on when it will happen or how it will play out, so saying anything about it is unsubstantiated speculation.

Check.

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I just don't see why we're supposed to be impressed by the Shapers helping one servile when they passed up every opportunity before or since.

Impressed? Did I say they needed a cheering section or a marching band for it? All I said was that it was progress, and a step in the right direction (no matter how small you consider it to be).

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The Obeyers, Awakened, and most drayks were friendly in G1.

To you, a lowly, undecided apprentice that might benefit them. Considering how the Takers treat you in GF1, I'd say that if you were anyone else, you'd have been a dead (wo)man walking.

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The Shapers sent the surviving Obeyers and Awakened running to Tuldaric while the drayks went to the Takers and helped create the drakons in G2.

True enough. Though, as I've believed I've stated before, I don't support the Shapers in GF2.

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Then, even though they can get spies at least as far as Khima-Uss, they don't make any offers to the unhappy serviles or drayks there. If the Shapers were really determined to stop the drakons before the Unbound were finished, they'd be spreading their offer for survival to more than a single servile.

Dalia implied that she was new in Khima-uss, and that she was already attracting suspicion. Unfortunately, that meant she was unable to so much as hint at the idea of turning back to the Shapers without promptly getting killed.

[Brock The Archmage]

on another subject, what does the word Uss mean? it is oft-repeated.

[Lilith]

I'm pretty sure it just means something like "town", and I think that one of the drayks mentions this at some point.

[Acky]

2 things Nioca:

 

1-You can't hold it against the rebals to want revenge on the shapers for what they did.

The serviles have a great reason for wanting revenge. They are abused and enslaved for what they are and for wipeing out the serviles on Sucia/Mountians.

The drayks have an even better reason, the shapers tried too exterminate their species because they didn't trust them.

2-The drakons are crazy, no argument there, but they are farily good tactitions. If the shapers didn't blast diplomats heads before they reached the gates(which I find VERY unlikely) the minute that servile or that drayk or that drakon or that gazar who went to negociate, if "What are you orders master" wasen't the first thing they said they would of just killed it on the spot and call it a rogue and forget about it,

 

And, what if they litsened to what it said. Now they had a warning. For instance, Diwaniya would've made that extra turret at San ru's gates. Lord Rahul would've moved those troops into a defensie formation. Shaper Agatha might've kept a closer eye on her serviles. Plus, they had seen what happened to those poor awakened in medab. They were enslaved or killed as there city was razed to the ground.

We know, they knew, the shapers new that negociation was futile.

 

It would be like telling someone your gonna pantz them right before you pantz them. They'll go for their pants instinctivly. Sure you'ed get to pantz them alittle. But your just giving them a "headsup". In the long run you just sped up the process of their retraputions(wingbolts Kyassaks :)and Wartralls

 

 

On a side side note, how do leave a waymessage. The thing where a line came up and a message came on For each person

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Dragonlorddrakon

2 things Nioca:

1-You can't hold it against the rebals to want revenge on the shapers for what they did.
The serviles have a great reason for wanting revenge. They are abused and enslaved for what they are and for wipeing out the serviles on Sucia/Mountians.
The drayks have an even better reason, the shapers tried too exterminate their species because they didn't trust them.

Fair enough. The Serviles and Drayks have full rights to want revenge. So do the Drakons.

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2-The drakons are crazy, no argument there, but they are farily good tactitions.

Good tacticians my butt! Not only did they wind up over-stretching their resources and promptly started the downward spiral we see in GF4, but they also managed to extract only a stalemate out of a superweapon that very well could have completely destroyed the Shapers on Terrestria. Several surgical strikes with a handful of Unbound would have been all it took to knock out the Shapers, but instead of doing the smart thing, they did the typical Taker/Rebel thing and just created an army of rogues (which seems to be the Rebel's answer to everything).

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If the shapers didn't blast diplomats heads before they reached the gates(which I find VERY unlikely) the minute that servile or that drayk or that drakon or that gazar who went to negociate, if "What are you orders master" wasen't the first thing they said they would of just killed it on the spot and call it a rogue and forget about it,

Oi! There aren't only creations in the Rebel army!

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And, what if they litsened to what it said. Now they had a warning. For instance, Diwaniya would've made that extra turret at San ru's gates. Lord Rahul would've moved those troops into a defensie formation. Shaper Agatha might've kept a closer eye on her serviles. Plus, they had seen what happened to those poor awakened in medab. They were enslaved or killed as there city was razed to the ground.

Who said they had to do it at the beginning of the fighting? I've said this before. Right when the Drakons were starting to spread themselves thin would have been the perfect opportunity to do this. The Shapers had been devastated, and the Drakons were losing their momentum. But no. The Drakons got greedy and pressed their luck. And look what it got everyone.

As an aside, I have no idea what you mean by "waymessage".

[Acky]

Alright, I'll give you the tacticians.

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Oi! There aren't only creations in the Rebel army!

 

Then they would've captured or beheaded the human rebal. It dosen't matter what went there. All that would've mattered is that as soon as it started asking for a peace/Independent creation they would've killed it or imprisoned it. Your missing the point. It dosen't matter how many times rebals ask for a peace, they won't get it. It wasen't untill the unbound did the shapers ever addmit they were afraid of a creation. The Shaper way of life means suppereority over creations. THEY WON'T HAVE A PEACE. THEY WANT A VICTORY.

 

Quote:

Who said they had to do it at the beginning of the fighting? I've said this before. Right when the Drakons were starting to spread themselves thin would have been the perfect opportunity to do this. The Shapers had been devastated, and the Drakons were losing their momentum. But no. The Drakons got greedy and pressed their luck. And look what it got everyone.

 

This is a fight of opnions. I think it would've been better to ask for a peace as the rouges were at their throats and bashing down their gates and when they didn't even know whats attacking them completely. You think it would've been better to ask for a peace when their cities where destroyed and their order chastened. I'd rather not argue about this perticular topic

 

 

Look at your recent post. There is a line then you talk about your BOA senarios

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Dragonlorddrakon

Oi! There aren't only creations in the Rebel army!

Then they would've captured or beheaded the human rebal. It dosen't matter what went there. All that would've mattered is that as soon as it started asking for a peace/Independent creation they would've killed it or imprisoned it. Your missing the point. It dosen't matter how many times rebals ask for a peace, they won't get it.

How would they know that? How many times have they asked for peace? They didn't even try on that front. Who knows; with the right timing, it might have actually gone somewhere.

Quote:

It wasen't untill the unbound did the shapers ever addmit they were afraid of a creation. The Shaper way of life means suppereority over creations. THEY WON'T HAVE A PEACE. THEY WANT A VICTORY.

I can say the same of the Drakons. And that's the problem.

Quote:

Look at your recent post. There is a line then you talk about your BOA senarios

That's the edit reason line. You have to edit the post to use it.

[Feo Takahari]

At this point, I'm not entirely sure what anyone is talking about anymore, and I might not be alone, considering that fewer and fewer people seem to be posting, but more and more frequently. That said, I think it might be worth pointing out that the attitude of the Shapers to their creations really isn't like that of the Nazis so much as, like Thuryl said in a previous topic, the Confederates in American history. They don't want to wipe out all rebellious creations, but they find it a violation of the natural order for a creation to rebel in the first place, and thus will wipe out any they can't "tame." There are good and bad masters, in the same way there were good and bad plantation owners, but they've bought into the same lie. In this sense, Krik (the playable servile in G4) is, if you have him help the Shapers, simply what they expect serviles to be. In theory, it would be possible for the Shapers to gradually realize that the serviles are equals, but in practice that'd made harder by the fact that the Shapers think of non-Shaper humans the way the Nazis thought of non-German whites--not vile enough to kill, but inferior enough to order around. Given how far they are from realizing equality to anyone, it would be highly likely that the majority of the Shapers would be impossible to negotiate with, and violence would seem to be the most likely hope for change, if not the best morally. The only question is whether Geneforge's rebels are the ones to bring them down. (I myself would say that the drakons are lining themselves up to be the new Shapers, but that if they were defeated, there might not be another chance to gain freedom for a long time. In other words, support the drakons now, fight them if you have to in the long run.)

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Check, though I think it was more along the lines of the Shapers never being comfortable with the Rebellion surviving on the Ashen Isles.

Nope, I'm pretty sure there was a line about knowing that one day, an attack would come.

In any case, that ending does not provide any evidence whatsoever that the Shaper attitude towards intelligent creations is softening. We might as well support the drakons and hope that sometime in the distant future, they'll stop being so arrogant and crazy.

Quote:

Impressed? Did I say they needed a cheering section or a marching band for it? All I said was that it was progress, and a step in the right direction (no matter how small you consider it to be).

Yeah, one small step forward, two big steps back.

Originally Posted By: feo takahari

(I myself would say that the drakons are lining themselves up to be the new Shapers, but that if they were defeated, there might not be another chance to gain freedom for a long time. In other words, support the drakons now, fight them if you have to in the long run.)

But if the Shapers are practically impossible to overthrow, how do we know that the drakons won't be equally difficult to overthrow if they become like the Shapers?

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Check, though I think it was more along the lines of the Shapers never being comfortable with the Rebellion surviving on the Ashen Isles.

Nope, I'm pretty sure there was a line about knowing that one day, an attack would come.

In any case, that ending does not provide any evidence whatsoever that the Shaper attitude towards intelligent creations is softening. We might as well support the drakons and hope that sometime in the distant future, they'll stop being so arrogant and crazy.

Well, other than the puppet servile governor, right?

And, unfortunately, I think that it's far better support the Shapers and wait for a better, more just rebellion to pop up than it is to go with the Drakons and hope on the very unlikely chance that they become more sane.

Quote:

Quote:

Impressed? Did I say they needed a cheering section or a marching band for it? All I said was that it was progress, and a step in the right direction (no matter how small you consider it to be).

Yeah, one small step forward, two big steps back.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting "two big steps back" from? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.

Originally Posted By: feo takahari

Quote:

(I myself would say that the drakons are lining themselves up to be the new Shapers, but that if they were defeated, there might not be another chance to gain freedom for a long time. In other words, support the drakons now, fight them if you have to in the long run.)

But if the Shapers are practically impossible to overthrow, how do we know that the drakons won't be equally difficult to overthrow if they become like the Shapers?

Equally? There's a whole crapload of in-game evidence that suggests that the Drakons are considerably more powerful than the Shapers. That's why I'm so opposed to the Rebellion; when the Drakon regime takes over, they'll be harder to overthrow than the Shapers ever were.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Well, other than the puppet servile governor, right?

Yes, they helped one servile for the sole purpose of getting a better shot at killing other intelligent creations. They are not changing their underlying attitudes or policies at all, just making a one time exception.

Quote:

And, unfortunately, I think that it's far better support the Shapers and wait for a better, more just rebellion to pop up than it is to go with the Drakons and hope on the very unlikely chance that they become more sane.

If the Shapers are awful and this rebellion went sour so quickly, it's also very unlikely the next rebellion will be any better. Or the next one.

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Well, other than the puppet servile governor, right?

Yes, they helped one servile for the sole purpose of getting a better shot at killing other intelligent creations. They are not changing their underlying attitudes or policies at all, just making a one time exception.

You know what? I'm going to drop this point, simply because I'm getting tired of banging my head against a brick wall.

Quote:

Quote:

And, unfortunately, I think that it's far better support the Shapers and wait for a better, more just rebellion to pop up than it is to go with the Drakons and hope on the very unlikely chance that they become more sane.

If the Shapers are awful and this rebellion went sour so quickly, it's also very unlikely the next rebellion will be any better. Or the next one.

If that's case, I guess the Shaper regime is the best choice available, awful as it may be. I prefer reserved tyrants who aren't constantly out for more power to insane tyrants constantly trying to increase their powers.

[Feo Takahari]

As I think I mentioned earlier, Charles Dickens has some interesting stuff to say at the end of A Tale of Two Cities about the tendency of violent rebellions to become as bad as those they fight against. Then again, as I said earlier, a peaceful change in attitudes a la Martin Luther King Jr. is unlikely given how far the Shapers have to go. Sigh . . . There's a fine line between making a game that's morally complex and making one that drives you off your rocker trying to figure out what's the right path to take. Good thing I can't think of a real-life situation equivalent to this (though something may come up if we ever invent a truly intelligent A.I.)

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

Quote:

Out of curiosity, where are you getting "two big steps back" from? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.

 

The Shapers essentially tolerate a reformed obedient servile so that they can extinguish all creation life on the mainland and then further increase the severity of their rule. That's hardly progress, Nioca. You might as well argue that the Nazis were making progress when they enlisted Jewish policemen to round up the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto and ship them off to concentration camps.

 

I mean, hey, the Nazis were cooperating with Jews. Who cares if they were doing so in order to create a racially pure Germany?

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

Quote:

Out of curiosity, where are you getting "two big steps back" from? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.

The Shapers essentially tolerate a reformed obedient servile so that they can extinguish all creation life on the mainland and then further increase the severity of their rule. That's hardly progress, Nioca.

...uh, what? "Extinguish all creation life on the mainland"? That's such a blatantly false claim that, while you're at it, you might as well say they're doing it to belch rainbows. The Shapers have no intention of extinguishing all creation life. Not even the Trakovites are going that far.

As for increasing the severity of their rules, can you honestly say that from a Shaper standpoint that you wouldn't? The rebels are a prime example of why Shaper rules are in place. So, in that case, I suppose they did take two steps back. In a fit of irony, the very thing that was supposed to improve creation rights wound up partially strangling even the prospect of it.

Quote:

You might as well argue that the Nazis were making progress when they enlisted Jewish policemen to round up the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto and ship them off to concentration camps.

I mean, hey, the Nazis were cooperating with Jews. Who cares if they were doing so in order to create a racially pure Germany?

Unfortunately, the Nazi = Shaper comparison ended already. With the Nazis, the oppressed were a race of people of the same species, and it had only been taking place for a few decades and believed by a single nation. With the Shapers, the oppressed are an entirely different species, generally considered no more intelligent than the typical animal, and the dogma that backs that up has been in place for five centuries, and is generally believed by the entire world, who had no reason to believe different. Therefore, while Jewish policemen were not a mark of progress with the Germans, a puppet servile governor is.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

With the Nazis, the oppressed were a race of people of the same species, and it had only been taking place for a few decades and believed by a single nation.

Dude, where are you learning your history? Just about every nation on Earth was anti-Semitic back in the 1930s, and Europe did in fact have a history of violent anti-Semitism dating back centuries. World War II sure as hell wasn't fought to protect the Jews; if Germany had stuck to conducting the Holocaust in its own territory, nobody would have given a damn.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Originally Posted By: Nioca

With the Nazis, the oppressed were a race of people of the same species, and it had only been taking place for a few decades and believed by a single nation.

Dude, where are you learning your history? Just about every nation on Earth was anti-Semitic back in the 1930s, and Europe did in fact have a history of violent anti-Semitism dating back centuries. World War II sure as hell wasn't fought to protect the Jews; if Germany had stuck to conducting the Holocaust in its own territory, nobody would have given a damn.

Perhaps I should have elaborated more clearly.

Quote:

With the Nazis, the oppressed were a race of people of the same species, and that specific oppression had only been taking place for a few decades and believed by a single nation.

Better?

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

Quote:

"Extinguish all creation life on the mainland"? That's such a blatantly false claim that,

 

I neglected to type the word 'independent'. My mistake.

 

Quote:

As for increasing the severity of their rules, can you honestly say that from a Shaper standpoint that you wouldn't?

 

Which is beside the point. As Dikiyoba has repeatedly pointed out, you can't claim that the Shapers are making progress when they deal with one reformed obedient servile in order to not only snuff out all independent creation life, but also to re-instate their rule, which is more totalitarian than it was prior to the Rebellion.

 

Your claims of progress become even more ridiculous in light of the fact that the Shapers were dealing with serviles directly after the events of GF1.

 

Quote:

Unfortunately, the Nazi = Shaper comparison ended already. With the Nazis, the oppressed were a race of people of the same species, and it had only been taking place for a few decades and believed by a single nation. With the Shapers, the oppressed are an entirely different species, generally considered no more intelligent than the typical animal, and the dogma that backs that up has been in place for five centuries, and is generally believed by the entire world, who had no reason to believe different.

 

I don't see the relevance of the above observations. They are arbitrary differences, and even then they are arguably incorrect.

 

If you can put forward a distinction which concisely explains why Nazis consorting with Jews was not progress, whereas Shapers consorting with Servile was progress, then let's hear it.

 

Remember, the ultimate aim of the Shapers was to eliminate all independent creation life and restore the status quo (except this time, the Shapers would enforce even more control), much like the ultimate aim of the Nazis was the extermination of the Jewish people. The fact that both consorted with a member of the group they were targeting for extermination is hardly evidence of progress, imho.

[Lord Safey]

I disagree I believe that fact that the shapers are willing to recruit a rouge servile and teach him the secrets of shaping is significant. However the shapers only made such progress because their survival is threaten. It shows that eventually if their survival is continually threaten they might come a point where they are willing to negotiate. I think a long protracted stalemate of war will eventually bring the more moderate parts to the negotiating table. while the drakons and the more stubborn shapers will have to be destroyed.

[Ale193]

WWII is not a accurate metaphor for Geneforge, mainly because everybody involved was human and there were extremely clear-cut good and evil sides. you can't compare the two situations, the shapers aren't evil Nazis and the rebels certainly aren't the good allied powers. the French and russian rebellions are the closest to this situation but even they aren't really accurate metaphors. (though the Stalin/Robespierre-Drakon comparison is a good one) I read through my whole 8th and 9th grade history books and couldn't find a single comparable situation in human history, though certain ones had vague resemblances to parts of the geneforge story. Personally I think this game has gotten so Philosophically muddled that we have to put it down to statistics. if the Drakons win everyone dies, if the Shapers win, less people will die. therefore, the shapers while not necessarily good, are the ones who should win.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Ale193

if the Drakons win everyone dies, if the Shapers win, less people will die. therefore, the shapers while not necessarily good, are the ones who should win.

I'm late to this thread, and to the game, having only played G4. With that out of the way, I'm surprised by this position, which is taken very often on this forum. I understand the logic, but the Shapers are repressive dictators. They should not win. The Drakons are maniacs. They should not win. Isn't there some possibility that the human/non-drakon part of the Rebellion would win? I hope that the final chapter will include a happy ending among the possibilities. I don't know what the point of an RPG is if you can't get a happy ending.

[Acky]

It is possible, but very unlikely. The Human/Serviles/Drayk a little is the weakest between them, drakons, and shapers.

If the rebellion is divided, then the only hope a faction like that would have is that the drakons and shapers so wraped up in a war between themselves that saboutors could slip behind enemy lines and cause all sorts of mischuf.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

I'm late to this thread, and to the game, having only played G4. With that out of the way, I'm surprised by this position, which is taken very often on this forum. I understand the logic, but the Shapers are repressive dictators. They should not win. The Drakons are maniacs. They should not win. Isn't there some possibility that the human/non-drakon part of the Rebellion would win? I hope that the final chapter will include a happy ending among the possibilities. I don't know what the point of an RPG is if you can't get a happy ending.

Unfortunately, your options are limited. But I like to take the Trakovite ending, not because I believe in the Trakovite cause, but because a stalemate might force one or both sides to reconsider their goals and methods. (Of course, this does advance the Trakovite cause, but I'm not opposed to their philosophy, I just don't believe it's remotely practical.)

Dikiyoba.

[Ale193]

If only we got to make our own factions.

[Brock The Archmage]

I do. The unaligned one, and in game where you can't do that, I still do by killing everyone and everything at the end of the game.

[Dark Neptune]

I think if you guys have read, seen and heard other different types of stories, you can tell that obviously the proper ending to the Geneforge Saga is the Trakovite one.

 

Any of you guys find this odd? His name was Trajkov in G1 and G2, but in G4 he's Trakov instead.

[Dikiyoba]

Drewry does come right out and say that the information they have regarding Sucia Island isn't very reliable.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lilith]

Yeah; he didn't use the Geneforge with the intention of becoming some kind of martyr, either. (In fact, in the canonical continuity it seems most likely that he didn't get a chance to use the Geneforge at all.) The information about him has been distorted to the limit of recognition. That's the joke.

[Evnissyen]

Nept:

Well, the obvious problem with a primary Trakovite narrative thread is that the Geneforge world is a world built almost entirely on shaping. Honestly, their philosophy is as unrealistic as the Anama in A5. Just as the people of Avernum could not survive without magic... the Geneforge world would fall into a kind of stone-age were shaping abolished, and what that means for the player is: no fun.

 

Of course, I do think that the Trakovites in G5 could and probably should be instrumental in negotiating an end to the war between the Shapers and Rebels. Only a 3rd party can stop the war. Of course, this 3rd party could also consist of a coalition of defecting Shapers and defecting Rebels... and actually I suppose that's more likely, considering that in G4, if I remember correctly, both the Shapers and Rebels seemed bent on killing every last Trakovite.

 

Haven't I already had this discussion some time ago with Sleeping Dragon?

[Dark Neptune]

Umm...I am new here, and only paid attention to some other forum posts.

 

The 3rd party is probably the player along with some distressed Shaper/Shaper servants and Rebels.

 

If you heard about China's history Dynasties, you know that the Trakovite ending is the one.

 

And yes, Drewy mentioned "Who knows if this is the truth? These stories are just passed down from Servile to Servile"

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

Well, the obvious problem with a primary Trakovite narrative thread is that the Geneforge world is a world built almost entirely on shaping. Honestly, their philosophy is as unrealistic as the Anama in A5. Just as the people of Avernum could not survive without magic... the Geneforge world would fall into a kind of stone-age were shaping abolished, and what that means for the player is: no fun.

The Trakovites have shown they're willing to work in stages (at least, so far), so a gradual decline of shaping would give society time to adjust. Shaper society has some pretty advanced technology if they are able to pull things like the Barrier of the Winds and that Clockwork Workshop off, so that technology and magic would help fill the gap left by Shaping. Losing shaping would be a major setback, but not an immediate return to banging rocks together.

Dikiyoba.

[Sudanna]

Nayd thought that the Clockwork Workshop used partially biological golems.

[Dikiyoba]

Partly yes, but partly not. The point is, they have something they can start with.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lord Safey]

I see trakovites as a mean to an ends. They are useful for the purposes of getting the rebels and shapers to the negotiating table.

 

I don't support their ultimate goals for 2 reasons.

1. Is if the world turns away from shaping they will find something else to replace it. Something that they have no clue how to handle and you have to start all over again.

 

2. Look at other forms of magic that are forbidden (necromancy) the shapers have had significant resources and time to wipe them out as well as the support of the people to wipe them out yet they still exist. As soon as the horrors of the war are forgotten those who have practiced in secret will come out of hiding and return to the old ways.

[Evnissyen]

What Safey said, and also:

 

Just about all Shaper "technology" seems to be shaped. No more motion-sensing doors, no more control panels... the power conduction contraptions are likely shaped to conduct the magical power of crystals. Even plant life (and animal life) is shaped to exist in areas they'd normally not be able to.... So if you get rid of shaping then the world is going to have to work pretty hard to advance their technological capabilities to achieve what they once had, and lifestyles are going to have to adapt very quickly. Whole societies will be strangled because their shaped plants and shaped wildlife have died off and there's nothing forthcoming to replace them with, and with loss of money and food comes social instability. Before you know it the post-Shaper world would be at war again. And then somebody will build a geneforge....

[Dikiyoba]

We have seen regular doors. We have seen completely lifeless control panels. There's no mention of the power crystals and conduits being shaped, so it could go either way.

 

Also, the Trakovites weren't planning to wipe existing creations out, so things like mines, living tools, thorn batons, etc. that are mostly bred now would still exist. This goes for shaped crops and livestock too. New and better varieties would still come about due to selective breeding, it would just take longer.

 

It's the removal of knowledge that the Trakovites can't do, and the high probability they'd become tyrants in trying. The Shapers can barely control it at the best of times, and they're very strict and harsh already.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Dark Neptune]

Well, the whole problem actually faults with some Shapers who, a few centuries ago, barred Sucia Island when they created Drayks, tons of serviles and the Geneforge labs.

[The Forgotton]

Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd

Who does Nalyd thinks will win? The Trakovites. Who does he think should win, of those who are still surviving? The Shapers.

Shapers FTW!!!

[The Forgotton]

Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd

Quote:

Originally written by Xel'Raga the Slaughtering Omnimoose:
I hate the shapers, killing drayks for no reason other than the fact that if they misused them they would bite back, bastards, when i see one i kill one, and hopefully in G5 they will have better council members than that pitiful Movawad, 202 health, me no think so! Shapers are evil, cruel and immoral, kinda like modern hippos.

Milady doth protest too much. Besides, you think the Rebels would be better? Your naivete is amusing. [/conceitedness]

And don't even mention the Trakovites. They are guilty of the worst crime possible. . . the suppression of knowledge, science, advancement. . . Harmful knowledge or not, that is all that it takes for Nalyd to wish the most demonic torments upon them.

Nayld, Save some demonic torments for me to send forth!!!

[Sudanna]

Please don't reply to posts made several months ago.