Ghaldring

Originally Posted By: Randomizer The trait divine touch gives blademaster, magery, and sharpshooter skills at the start and one level in each every 6 levels. Every four levels.

There are at least 2 S. knives in the game.

You can equip the shield with the S. knife, and I don't think the alien blade does that much more damage?

Originally Posted By: Randomizer It's mostly luck in the positioning of the enemy. Still it's well worth it for the luck blade it gives. The Radiant Slith spear is off to the northwest and you have to fight/flee the shambler to get it on the way back. The Serendipity Knife would have to be one of the best melee weapons in the game, wouldn't it? Oodles of damage, +6 to luck, and it only weighs 2 pounds!

I think Geneforge 2 was the best, endings wise.

Originally Posted By: Hecate One little tweak I'd really like is an ability to save your own notes in the journal. Yes, I've been thinking that for years. Also to add notes to your map.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Great games are generally games Dikiyoba wants to play again and again. How come you seem to be the only one who can grasp this very simple concept? Maybe because you have an abundance of common sense, which many of veterans on this forum are lacking? Alorael: Quote: Of course you shouldn't have to force yourself to finish the game, but is finishing the game paramount? Finishing the game is important, in my view. You obtain a sense of achievement, satisifaction and closure when you finish a computer game. Not being able to finish Avernum 5 was not only a major disappointment, it was also incredibly disheartening to think of all the time I had invested in the game, only to have the game 'win' in the most treacherous of ways. And I repeat, *wanting* to finish the game out of pure entertainment is a clear indicator of a good game. Quote: The point of games is to be fun. If you have fun up to a certain point, then just stop playing, you've still had fun. If you had a whole lot of fun, why isn't the game great? Because that's not the whole game? For example, the first 10 minutes of Doom 3 were fantastic, where all hell broke loose and everyone was getting hacked to pieces and possessed by demonic legions. But the following 40 hours of gameplay were just a grind. By your logic, I should just replay the first 10 minutes of Doom 3 over and over, and come to the conclusion that the game is great. Quote: A terrible stretch at the end doesn't automatically make the game wretched if the rest was pure gold. Except that you'll rarely (if ever) find a game like that. Some classics which had a rushed production (off the top of my head: Serpent Isle, Vampire: Masquerade, KOTOR II) did slacken off a little at the end, but the ending was still playable, and imho, enjoyable. The final 1/5th of Avernum 5 is not playable.

Originally Posted By: --- / .... .- .. A question: If a game is great for some duration and then after a certain point becomes mediocre, or even awful, can it still be a great game? I think that some of the staunch Jeff defenders are trying to overcomplicate this issue. I can't provide you with a precise ratio of suck vs awesome that can be used to distinguish between good games and bad games, but that's not really important. If I lose so much interest and enjoyment in a game, and as a result don't complete it, then it has failed as a form entertainment. A good (great?) RPG/adventure/FPS should be so enjoyable that you are stimulated to play until the very end. There is a very strong correlation between the games that I never lost interest in, and the games that I've completed. If a game dies off half way through, then it fails, it's a piece of crap. Quite simply, you shouldn't have to force yourself to finish a game, that defeats the whole purpose of gaming, which is done for enjoyment. If you're not enjoying a game, you might as well force yourself to file your tax returns or work overtime. Avernum 5 failed. It failed to maintain my interest, it failed as a form of entertainment and enjoyment. What more can I say?

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Originally Posted By: Ghaldring If the PC sided with the Rebels in GF3, why is Khyrk still alive? You have to kill Khyrk in order to complete the game as a Rebel. Khyryk cloned himself. Dikiyoba. What is this, a Marvel comic book series?

Quote: Perhaps the canonical G3 PC was a min-maxing megalomanaical munchkin who tried to play both the Shapers and the Rebels for everything they had, and thus did not actually complete the game Akhari Blaze mentions in GF4 that the Geneforge on the Isle of Spears was complete, which implies that the PC from GF3 did finish the game as a Rebel. Which begs the question as to why Khyrk is alive. Slarty: Quote: Personally, I think the simplest explanation for the weird faces both Alwan and Greta make when that PC is brought up is that he was eaten by some creation in a particularly gruesome way. LOL!

If the PC sided with the Rebels in GF3, why is Khyrk still alive? You have to kill Khyrk in order to complete the game as a Rebel. On the otherhand, if the PC sided with the Shapers, how come the Geneforge on the Isle of Spears was completed?

You're extrapolating results from BoA to the Avernum trilogy? http://www.cheatbook.de/wfiles/avernum2.htm Quote: More on Natural mage from Alex: Unlock Doors level 1 is the easiest way to see how the bonus is calculated. My result: The bonus is incremented every 7th level, so the benefit of Natural Mage is: +4 at level 1 +5 at level 7 +6 at level 14 etc. Funnily enough, my very limited testing seemed to imply an initial +3 to spell strength. Hmm.

Dikiyoba: Quote: A fighter with some mage and priest skills, a tool user with some melee, mage, and priest skills, and two mage/priests. All with a little archery for backup. Dikiyoba. Same here. Usually I'll give all my PC's Natural Mage and Fast on Feet traits. Works like a charm. Thuryl: Quote: In the first three Avernum games, Natural Mage gives a small bonus to the effectiveness of both mage and priest spells, although it's not really worth taking it just for that. From memory, Natural Mage gives an initial +3 bonus to spell strength, which increases by +1 every 7 or so levels. That doesn't just equate to more direct damage, but also to greater targeting ability, longer spell durations, and more HP healed. By level 14 you'll be casting spells as if you had +5 in magery. Compare that to Elite Warrior, which is highly over-rated. +1 to damage, and +5% to hit every 8 levels is a joke. Alorael: Quote: Finally, races don't matter much, but I've found sliths to be better than nephils. I've found nephils to be far better than sliths, simply because nephil characters almost always get the initiative (through a bonus to dex?). Having the initiative in Avernum 1-3 is often the determining factor in a difficult fight, especially in regards to mages/priests. Quite often I find myself thinking "Can I cast Arcane Shield on X before bad guy Y gets to hit him?" or "Can I cast Create Illusions before dastardly villain Z hits frail spellcaster P?" And not having the initiative when fighting Dark Wyrms really sucks. "Hey whaa?" *bam* dead.

I used a couple of Charged Vlish on the Sandros Mine ghosts. Immunity to cold attacks made that fight a breeze.

Slarty: Quote: I honestly don't understand how everybody here comes to these highly polarized, emotional judgments about games because they aren't perfect. Ghaldring brought up some legitimate criticisms, but they don't eliminate the things about the game that are fun. Even if completing the game doesn't go in that category for you, there are still good things about it. ... Really, what game is perfect? When I read what I quoted above, I had to sit for a moment and let the absurdity sink in. What you seem to be saying is that no game is perfect, hence you can't criticise Avernum 5 for its game killing flaws. And yes, they ARE game killing, otherwise I wouldn't have stopped playing the game. But I'm just curious. Have you completed Avernum 5? I remember reading an old thread where you specifically stated that you had not, which raises the question: Why haven't you? If Avernum 5 is indeed a solid and enjoyable game, one would think you'd play it to its conclusion. lampshade: Quote: It's typical for a JV game to bottom out imho. The only game I kept having fun with was Exile 2 Exile 2 and Nethergate are by far and away Jeff's best games. Nioca: Quote: The plot was strong in the demo section. But once the demo ended, both bottomed out. Yes. And giving the gamer the 'option' of joining Dorikas was just ridiculous. That would be the equivalent of Bioware giving the PC from Baldur's Gate/II the option of joining Sarevok/Irenicus.

Choose your destiny!

Slarty: Quote: I think the real answer here is that A5 should just not be played on Torment. Agreed. When I reduced the difficulty to normal for that Ice Drake fight, I found it bearable. I then decided to leave it at that difficulty, although I felt guilty for doing so. But despite reducing the difficulty, Melawhatever's Keep and Darkside Lands are just ridiculously long, tedious and difficult. I'd rather be filing my tax return. So I've given this game the flick, and I'm rather piqued about my whole experience. My party endured a hell of a lot on Torment difficult, the game should't just win like that after so much time and effort was invested. It's an abomination against what is just and fair and decent, it's a mega F you to the avid perfectionist gamer who puts in the hard yards, a Nelson 'Ha ha' to anyone who tried to take the game seriously. Any game designer who inserts a 4,000 hp sub-boss into a game where a character has difficulty dealing 100 damage per round is a sadistic [censored], plain and simple. And yes, I'm probably breaching the CoC, but it really needs to be said. Avernum 5 sucks, and I honestly don't know how anyone can play it to the lackluster finale. I'd rather play Exile 1 on my old Macintosh, I'd rather play Goldenaxe in the Arcades, I'd rather relive my experiences with Exile 2 in my imagination.

Randomizer: Quote: Control foe is always your friend by making them fight amongst themselves. Daze is another way to reduce damage. What, you think I didn't try that?

Originally Posted By: Randomizer Dikiyoba - I think I know the wolf you are referring to and it was the Wolf Mother that could summon more wolves. Oh god. Fie on those 2000 hp monsters which could summon 400 hp generic monsters. What the hell was Jeff thinking? Quote: And 4000 hitpoints?!? Only the last few bosses of A4 had that much health! What's worse is that a number of these 'mini-bosses' aren't optional, you HAVE to fight them. And there are other instances where in order to get a point in a spell you're after, you're going to have to suffer a case of carpal tunnel sydrome. I mean, 4,000 bloody hitpoints. Do you think that was enough, Jeff? I re-iterate, what the hell were you thinking? Earth: Quote: if sub-bosses/bosses are too difficult then skillpoints have been spent on wrong things. This is a load of BS. Prior to playing A5 I read numerous threads on how to optimise my characters, I even took Slarty's advice to heart and employed archery as my primary method of attack, I selected Elite Warrior as my second trait for spellcasters, I didn't blow skill points on frivilous skills. I didn't min-max, but I sure as hell didn't splash my skill points around like a faeces chucking ape. But let's say that I didn't optimise my skill point allocation. Does that mean that despite getting as far as Melawhatever's Keep, I can't progress any further in the game? I'll have to start again? What a tease, allowing players to get four fifths of the game and then throwing enemies at them which have 4,000 hp and uber attacks, keeping them from viewing the (disappointing and predictable) ending. Quote: i fought against black horror few times until i found strategy to beat it. Did that involve buffing, hitting, healing, rinse and repeat? Don't bother answering, the question is rhetorical. Jeff must have made this game with 8 year old Korean boys in mind. It's ridiculously hard, while treating the player like a petulant retard. Just one example from my own experiences. I wanted to gain an audience with the Giant Queen, and was told it would be almost impossible to storm the front gate. So I decided to take the back entrance, and got stuck with those ridiculous and incredibly contrived trials. The first trial involves you being forced to stand next to the 'Pole of Punishment', which is far less kinky than it sounds, while four giant slingers throw rocks at your more frail party members. Think you can run to get a better tactical position? Well, you're wrong. If you try that, you fail the test. And while you're trying to deal with the four hundred hp giants, out comes a god damned 2,000 hp drake (on normal difficulty). Not only does it receive two attacks of frost breath, it emanates an ice aura, which hits for about 60hp. Damn, I'll have to move my mages out of the way, but oops, I forgot, I can't move them away from the Pole of Punishment. I just have to let them sit there. Now, here's where it gets even better. You don't pass the trial based on how much damage you endure (or how many turns you spend in there), you pass it when you kill all of your enemies. Which sort of conflicts with what the intention of the trial is, that is, TO TAKE PUNISHMENT. So after my four hundreth try, I screamed "F this!" and decided to take the front route. I picked away at the giant slingers, and made it to the hidden wall. I went to click on the brick, and... I didn't have enough tool use? God damn! Luckily I had a few spare skill points, so I just managed to pump tool use up to the required level. Go through the secret wall to find the gate wheel, and... I don't have enough strength?! God damn you, A5!!!

Originally Posted By: Ackrovan He never struck me as a "bad" guy. He was trying to be ethical on how to approuch the Avernites mind you. And you should remember that your a grunt, not a happy-go-lucky-fix-all-your-problems-for-a-sword that we were in the past games. And since you didn't get both endings like I did, you didn't get both of the complete stories. It's not that I think Redmark is a 'bad' guy, I just don't think that he's genuine. He lies to the PCs about wishing to be emperor, even though it's blatantly obvious that he's preening himself for the position. From memory, it's suggested several times in the game that an Empire soldier wouldn't assist the Avernites in expanding, and would actually act against them if they weren't at risk of political lashback, so it's not just the Darkside Loyalist extremists who want to subjugate Avernum. I've also been told that in the Imperialist ending, Redmark keeps Dorikas' fortress as a base of operations in Avernum. From my limited knowledge, it appears to me that Redmark isn't diplomatic with the Avernites out of altruism, but for his own (and the Empire's) gain. I think that Redmark would stay sweet with Avernum, until he had positioned himself so that he could launch an overwhelming assault on Avernum at just the right time. Dorikas is less patient. If he had waited, Avernum would have inevitably fell into civil war, and/or war with the Vahnatai, over limited living space, and that would have been a fantastic time for the Empire to consolidate their hold on Avernum. This is all conjecture though.

So instead of having you fight ten 200 hp chitraches, he has you fight one 2000 hp sub-boss. Yeah, that's an improvement...

Why, if Dorikas' rule is no less tyrannical than Redmark's? In fact, throughout the game I got the impression that even the more progressive citizens of the Empire still wanted to subjugate Avernum. Dorikas was just more honest about it. And he has no problem with non-human races, either. Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't. Redmark never struck me as an upfront and decent guy.

So there is no real difference in the outcome (ie. the ending doesn't make mention of whether Dorikas is more tyrannical/less progressive than Redmark)? Why wouldn't I side with the Darkside Loyalists, then?

Is there any significant difference between the two endings?

Originally Posted By: Nioca It's taken you till near the end of the game? I lost interest at Tranquility. I found it more tedious than A4, simply because it's full of filler and grinding against a constant barrage of what are effectively sub-bosses. Pretty much. What I also find real awful is the huge leap in difficulty between each 'chapter'. There is no gradual increase in difficult. One moment you're fighting brigands, the next you're fighting Sentinels which can wipe you out with one ranged attack. The jump between Azure and Dark River is also very pronounced. I just can't tolerate this game any more. I really did give it a good second chance, I even tried role playing, but no. It's no longer fun. I doubt the ending is worth it, either. Probably something along the lines of "Dorikas/Redmark become Emperor, you're made a Dervish and then posted in the Underworld so that you aren't a threat." Now I understand why Slarty spends more time studying the mechanics of the game, instead of actually playing it.