Ghaldring

Good god, what was Jeff thinking when he made this game? It's unbelievably difficult and tedious. I've managed to drag my carcass to Melanchion's Lands, and am now facing monsters which have in the area of four thousand hit points, on normal difficulty. How long am I going to spend bashing away at them? I guess the better question here is: Why would I bother? And I just keep dying, non stop. Especially my mages and priests, who keep getting hit by aura attacks. This is unbelievable, I've been able to handle each Spiderweb game on Torment except for this one. It just seems impossible.

Slarty: Quote: Ghaldring -- if your bows have a "2 hit die" meaning a damage range of 1-2 per level of damage, you are using the wrong bows! The good bows have a range of 1-3, just like broadswords. If you use the former, no wonder your damage sucks. Argh, I mis-spoke. What I meant is that I am using bows whose hit dice give you an average of 2 damage per stat investment. So 3 hit die. Quote: Saving SP is unnecessary because direct damage is unnecessary. So the reason you don't need to conserve spell points is because you don't use the mage/priest's expensive attack spells? What an incredible waste, given that direct damage spells easily output more damage than weapons.

Thuryl: Quote: Learning to shape doesn't cause brain damage. Canister usage doesn't necessarily cause brain damage. As I've already established, how canisters affect personality, and how many are required to do so, varies between individuals. I admit that there is a trend between canister usage and megalomania. But then again, there appears to be a trend between being able to Shape and megalomania. As well as a flagrant disregard for Creations and life in general.

Yes. In regards to skill points, you'd have to invest far more skill points to unlock Blademaster on a Natural Mage Character, than you would on getting up to 17 Mage Spells on a Elite Warrior character. But the thing is, you need 17 points of Mage Spells for a Mage, take a few for equipment. You don't need 5 points of Blademaster for a Mage. If anything, that 5 Blademaster is a luxury that you can do without (similar to the 4 points magic efficiency), and I'd much rather the skill points that I saved due to picking Natural Mage going to somewhere where I want them to go. By the way, I just noticed that Slarty previously said: Quote: They may do less damage than spells, but that's the trade-off for not using SP! But hang on. Weren't you just arguing against Magical Efficiency, since spell points are so easy to replenish? I quote you as having said: Quote: Saving SP, while convenient, is unnecessary, given that you can almost always just go back to town to restore them (or use a cheat-of-convenience-only to do so). For protracted boss fights there are more than enough energy potions to last the game. This was one of the key points of my spurning the spellcaster traits. If saving SP is unnecessary, why would you care that direct damage spells use so much of it? Sounds like a huge inconsistency in your viewpoint right there.

Nebulan: Quote: Many? Litalia, Monarch... Or perhaps you could mean that they could but they don't. That's exactly what I mean. Quote: If you wanted to "cause havoc" don't "confine" them, give them the ability/shape them with the knowledge to get out from said pit and kill in mass quantities. So they are going to be allowed out of the pit? How would you prevent them from attacking you, apart from using a control rod? Quote: Or be in an underground safe-room and shape them to the surface.... What is the maximum shaping distance? As far as you can comprehend it to be? As depicted in several Geneforge sketches: Right next to the creation. You have to direct streamers of essence, so I doubt you could Shape creations while miles away. If you could do that, then the Shapers/Rebels would be doing it. Quote: I was about to ask you if you were a trakovite...The council will find and kill you at the end of their five year tea party... You missed the clue train. I'm pointing out that attempting to prevent disaster by prohibiting canister usage is ridiculous, since you can quite easily achieve what Monarch did with moderate Shaping ability and a control baton. The only sure way to prevent future Monarchs it to destroy all Shaping knowledge, not just canisters. I find posters who want to ban canisters, but not Shaping, to be inconsistent in their views.

Are we even playing the same game?! Slarty: Quote: Some monsters have no physical resistance. Most have between 15 and 30% physical resistance. Every monster I've encountered resists physical damage to some degree. Even mages will block a small percentage of physical damage. With most monsters, the physical resistance is very significant. It really exacerbates the poor damage I obtain from bows, which has a 2 hit die and no quick action bonus. For me, Smite is a guaranteed 90 damage, unless the monster has oodles of cold resistance (they rarely do). Thuryl: Quote: If you're patient, it's usually more efficient to beat things to death slowly with physical attacks and use your priests' spell points for healing. Of course, patience was never one of your virtues. Patience isn't a virtue when an enemy is outputting 200+ damage a round, and has 4,000 hit points. The longer you take to kill him, the longer he has to kill you. And the AI can be notoriously unpredictable, attacking your frail mages and priests even when you keep them out of the battle. feo: Quote: Hmm . . . Natural Mage neglects to mention that in its description, and it has the same EXP penalty as Pure Spirit, which does mention it. Then again, maybe the latter provides more points of magical efficiency--my character with Natural Mage is the one who has 8 points; my character with Pure Spirit has 11. Pure Spirit: Initial +2 to magical efficiency, and an extra +1 for every 6 levels after that. Natural Mage: Initial +1 to magical efficiency, and an extra +1 for every ten levels after that. So Priests get significantly more magical efficiency. But... 1. Natural Mage also mitigates the encumbrance penalty in regards to spell casting. 2. One point of 'mage spell' statistic costs more than one point of 'priest spell' statistic. This is why Natural Mage has the same Exp penalty as Pure Spirit. The question you have to ask yourself is this: For a Level 30 Priest, is 5 points of blademaster worth 7 points of magical efficiency to a priest? Forget about parry, because: 1. The skill points you save on the bonus Priest Spell stat points you gain from Pure Spirit can then be invested towards Parry (and strength to mitigate encumbrance), and you'd still come out ahead (as well as having a small bonus to ranged and melee attacks due to investing in dexterity and strengh respectively). 2. To be honest, I don't think +5 to Parry at level 30 is anything to sing about. If your low endurance priest is getting attacked, then he's most likely a goner, 5 Parry or no Parry. I'd rather spend those skill points saved on Priest Spells pumping endurance, or upping the damage on my Smite. Or god forbid, accessing higher level Battle Disciplines via investing in melee/pole. So again, is 5 points of Blademaster worth 7 points of Magical Efficiency? Truth be told, I don't know. If you have Battle Disciplines, then maybe. But you won't get Battle Disciplines (especially Battle Frenzy, the holy grail of Battle Disciplines) until at least Azure, if not later. And even then, it requires a serious cash investment which I don't find entirely practical. On the other hand, right off the bat you're benefitting from Magical Efficiency and the skill points you save on Priest Spells. More Magical Efficiency = More Smite/Divine Fire spells = More damage across the course of the game. So I'm starting to think that Pure Spirit is more appropriate for Priests than Elite Warrior.

Slarty: Quote: Also, does high enough Lethal Blow skill allow you to land lethal blows on targets of a higher level than you are? Haha, that's wayyy beyond me. I don't even know how to accurately gauge the opponent's level, I'm just guessing based on opponent difficulty. What I did notice is that Lethal Blow functions in a fashion similar to the Terror and Charm Foe spells, in regards to the 'threshold'. That is, you need a certain spell strength/amount of lethal blow and/or PC level before you even have a chance of success. Quote: Was it consistently 50% across other enemies / attack powers? I'll generate some data later on. I actually want to complete Avernum 5 first!

Slarty: Quote: Direct damage spells are out except when absolutely necessary, Direct damage spells are almost always necessary, given that almost every monster in the game has some degree of physical resistance. They are the only reliable way to damage things. Smite is an absolute godsend.

While I was at it, I experimented with lethal blow a little, comparing damage between 0 lethal blow and 30 lethal blow. NO YES 103 173 90 140 116 151 89 143 100 157 87 163 103 136 96 156 101 145 110 149 96 137 108 142 86 139 96 130 96 142 113 150 103 135 96 148 102 149 107 150 105 150 Average: 100.1428571 Average: 146.9047619 t test revealed clear statistical significance. So apparently landing a lethal blow has the same affect as 'Well Aimed Blow', giving a 50% increase to damage. Note that if you hit with quick action, the lethal blow damage bonus is applied to both strikes. The amount of points of lethal blow you have doesn't appear to affect damage. Two things appear to affect your chance to land a lethal blow: The level of your target, and the number of points you have in lethal blow. So I wouldn't consider lethal blow worth investing in, although I wouldn't begrude getting a free point or two from items. It's certainly more useful than Gymnastics.

Slarty: Quote: Ghaldring: fair enough about the certain pivotal, tough battles not working that way. Yes, I can certainly see where you are coming from. You are more likely to hit your opponent with a bow than a melee weapon acrss the couse of the game. But I think you're overestimating the average extra damage you obtain from this. Quote: Saving SP, while convenient, is unnecessary, given that you can almost always just go back to town to restore them (or use a cheat-of-convenience-only to do so). For protracted boss fights there are more than enough energy potions to last the game. This was one of the key points of my spurning the spellcaster traits. If you disagree, then obviously the spellcaster traits are for you, but I think it's a pretty solid argument. So do you mean to tell me that you don't invest any points in Intelligence for your spellcasters? At many points in the game, returning to town isn't an option, and there are a limited amount of energy potions to be found. You could make them, but that waste herbs for Knowledge Brews. You could buy them, but that wastes money for skill points. And like Thuryl, I hate using charged items.

Thuryl: Quote: You need a substantial investment in either Melee or Pole to unlock the Parry skill in the first place, honey. No you don't, stud. Parry : 6 Dexterity (cost 8) + 6 Defense (cost 5)

Originally Posted By: Thuryl Originally Posted By: Slarty That doesn't require a pole fighter, though, just a character who closes to melee range. As I recall, you were the one advocating a tank who just uses bows, right? No, I'm pretty sure that was you. Pole or sword users make better tanks because of Parry, and because it's easier to get battle disciplines for them. Whether you parry an attack is independent of what weapon you are wielding. Your point about battle disciplines is right on, though. A lack of battle disciplines for my archers is precisely what has been killing them. I'm up to Azure and I'm still stuck with leg sweep. Bah.

Slarty: Quote: Ghaldring, let me recapitulate my point about flexibility. Obviously, when you are "locked on" to a single, massive HP enemy that does not move away from you, poles will *actually* do more damage. I have asserted this from the beginning... However, this situation occurs in a fairly small percentage of the game's battles. I don't agree that this occurs in a 'small percentage' of the game battles. But even if this were true, some of the most pivotal battles (ie. boss battles and battles you can't avoid) involve a single boss character who locks onto your melee fighter, and never let's go. You're also forgetting that many enemies move first, meaning that they get up close and personal to hit you. Ergo. You'll be able to strike twice in round 1 with either a bow or melee. Quote: In random battles, you usually lose out on at least one shot at the start of the battle 'Usually'. And the same happens with bows as well, although admittedly not to the same degree as melee. But even when I incorporated that into my calculations, pole weapons still came out in front! Quote: and, depending on how many enemies there are, what their scripts are, which PCs they end up targetting, and other considerations (like body placement to protect weaker characters) you may either miss out on further attacks with a pole, or you may have to start attacking an enemy that wasn't your first choice to take down first, simply because it's in the right location. But I have found that such a dilemma happens infrequently. You're also forgetting that the same can (and does) indeed happen for archery. Quote: And some bosses move around erratically, even teleporting; against those bosses poles are about as inefficient as you can get. First you claim that single high HP boss battles consist of "a fairly small percentage of the game's battles.", and then bring up the phenomenom of teleporting bosses, which is even rarer? But even then, there's no guarantee you're going to hit a teleporting boss with your archery.

Randomizer: Quote: The sliths in Khora-Vysss are the best example of this challenge. What parry % do they have, do you remember? I sure don't. Quote: Just riposting slimes What!? I've never seen a slime riposte.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba You're putting yourself in a tremendous amount of risk even with a Control Baton. Dikiyoba. So Monarch would have dropped dead pretty soon anyway?

I was thinking of something along the lines of spawners. Do you need to be canister altered in order to shape them, though?

Slarty: I'm going to address only one aspect of your post at the moment. Quote: Flexibility really is more important than raw damage output, anyway. I'm not so sure I agree with that. My battle with Lystakk is a key example. What good is my bow's 'flexibility' if I can't output the raw damage to take down a boss in a timely manner? Quote: And the math on bows and poles is not wrong, but unless you do the math poles *will* seem to be doing more damage. It's psychological. Poles will do noticably more damage *when they hit*. You get enough extra chances to hit with bows that in the end the damage difference is negligible. But the little numbers that pop up will still be bigger for poles, of course. Poles do do more damage in most instances, especially if your PC is 'locked' on a single boss character. I opened up Excel and tried my own calculations (yes, yes, run in terror!) I assumed that your level 20 human (for simplicity) PC, with Elite Warrior and Divine Blood traits, was running around the Azure Gallery. One PC had found the Slith Bloodspear One PC had found the Ebony Longbow Since both of these are available in that region. I then invested 130 skill points, optimising for either a polearm character, or an archer character. I then used Excel to calculate the average damage for one hit (not taking Quick Action into account), and the average damage over 10 rounds, assuming hasted PCs (after all, why WOULDN'T you haste your PC's). I didn't bother with Battle Rage, that's getting too complicated. When I calculated the average damage, I adjusted for two things: - Quick action. A quick action of 13 gave me a 26% chance of a second strike. I scratched my head, trying to work out how to incorporate this into the damage calculations. In the end, I simply multiplied my overall damage for that ten rounds by 26%, and then added the result to the overall damage. - Whether you receive both strikes in the first round. I've found that in the first round, you sometimes get to strike twice as a pole user, especially if the boss monster moves first. I approximated this to about 20% of the time. An archer gets to strike twice in the first round about 80% of the time. I adjusted for this by multiplying the first attack by 20% or 80%, respectively. So, for the Ebony Longbow, my average damage per strike was 84. My average damage over 10 combat rounds was 1663. For the Slith Bloodspear, my average damage per strike was 102 (not including quick action.) My average damage over 10 combat rounds was 2459 (taking quick action into account). That's a difference of 48% damage! That's 48% less time the enemy spends kicking your ass. However, I've neglected to incorporate several things into my calculations that may affect average damage output. - In the favour of Pole weapons: = Slith vs. Nephil bonuses. The damage bonus for poles that Sliths receives is slightly more than that Nephil receives for bonus due to the hit die discrepancy between poles and bows. It's minor, though. = You're more likely to equip an item that increase melee damage than ranged damage. Ergo. There are more items that increase strength/anatomy/blademaster/lethal blow/pole weapons, than there are that increase dexterity/sharpshooter/bows. = You find halberds that output decent damage long before the Azure Gallery. However, bows with base damage and hit die that rival halberds don't pop up until late Azure. And forget about Heartstriker, you wouldn't want to waste Eyestalks on it. = There are more 'quest' bonuses and trained points in the game that benefit melee instead of bows. = You're going to obtain battle disciplines quicker to boost your damage. - In favour of bows: = You gain extra damage from the extra attacks you receive when smacking around a terrified/retreating enemy. Too bad I can't attach the Excel spreadsheet.

Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd Geneforge has hit points- fireballs are survivable. Realistically, even Firebolt would likely kill you. It takes years of training to gain "Just a little bit of Shaping skill". Like, enough to Shape a worm. That may be in part because Shapers tightly restrict the flow of knowledge. Even Shaper apprentices receive very little Shaping instruction from their masters (Shanti and the PC in Geneforge 2). Nevertheless, many Shapers the age of Monarch (middle age) are more than capable of Shaping hordes of uncontrollable creations. So I repeat, one does not need canisters to Shape hordes of uncontrollable creations. Canisters may make the whole process easier, but that's beside the point. Banning canisters on that justification is tackling the symptom instead of the root problem, which is Shaping itself. Quote: Hypothetically, you don't really need a Control Rod to make sure uncontrolled hordes of creations don't kill you. You could just Shape them into a pit or on the far side of a cliff face. You're reaching IMHO. Shaping creations in a pit might work, but what good is that? Monarch would not have been able to cause the havoc he did if he kept his creations confined to pits. And from a cliff face? That just sounds implausible. Quote: You need the Control Rod if you're going to have those creations near you, but you could have just a few controlled creations for bodyguard purposes. It's inevitable that your creations are going to be near you at some point, because you need to Shape them in the first place. And there's no real guarantee that they won't find their way back to you. You're putting yourself at a tremendous amount of risk if you don't have a Control Baton.

Originally Posted By: Slarty Thuryl -- are you sure the Anatomy simply adds to the attack bonus against humanoids? We know it increases damage somehow, but that's about it, I think. Also, I thought it worked on missile attacks as well. Thrown Rock is a missile attack used by a monster, I'm assuming. Either that or a leftover from the war trall in G4. For ranged attacks, tested against a human brigand: Anatomy No anatomy 21 16 23 19 21 22 22 17 15 14 22 15 12 17 19 18 24 17 18 21 20 21 18 21 24 15 20 24 23 24 24 22 22 26 20 19 18 27 26 20 t-Test: Two-Sample Assuming Equal Variances Variable 1 Variable 2 Mean 20.6 19.75 Variance 11.09473684 13.77631579 Hypothesized Mean Difference 0 P(T<=t) two-tail 0.450627419 p = 0.45, so there is no statistical significance between the mean (average) damage for both data sets. Ergo. It looks like anatomy doesn't do squat in regards to ranged attacks. However, 20 anatomy caused a huge increase in melee damage (over double!).

I try to buy one point in any spell that I won't be finding for a while. And I will use gold to forge worthwhile items (ie. the Blessed Plate Armour in Exodus).

Originally Posted By: Randomizer Well there's your problem. Your honest and it isn't the best policy for this game. But even in my previous playthrough where I stole everything that wasn't nailed down, I still didn't have nearly enough cash to train in the skills I wanted to! This is the big problem with using bows as your primary attack. It takes forever to get the battle disciplines. Or to even get a bow that does die damage that rivals halberds.

feo: Quote: Myself, I would argue that the variation between who goes nuts and who doesn't seems to be based on pre-existing personality as well as how many canisters you've used. Precisely. Canisters are remarkably similar to alcohol, except that alcohol doesn't grant you superhuman powers. Unless it is mixed with Red Bull.

Just government is an oxymoron. Governments by their very nature are repressive and authoritarian, although some more so than others. I'd rather live in a relatively progressive democratic society that pays some regard to individual rights, than a theocratic hellhole where you can be executed for holding heretical religious beliefs. The less intrusive and authoritarian a government, the lower the desire to rebel against it is. The absence of a government = no need to rebel, since you've got nothing to rebel against.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer Convert everything you don't use to cash. You have to go back when you reach the Azure Gallery to continue buying combat skills, but there is plenty to use if you don't mind stealing from them. I role-play with a 'no-theft' policy. But even then, I don't see how I could accumulate enough cash to not only buy all the necessary spells, but also to train in nature lore/spellcraft/magery/resistance/magical efficacy/pole weapons/melee weapons, as well as pay to craft some of the better items. I'd only be able to do so near the end of the game, and by then, what's the point?

Nioca: Quote: You're missing my point. I'm saying that for the 'releases swarms' tactic to work, you need to actually have swarms to release. And while the Control Baton was important, by itself, it would have been useless. And you're missing my point. I'm saying that one doesn't need to use canisters in order to create swarms of creations, nor does one need canisters to prevent these swarms from attacking you. What you do need is a Control Rod. Quote: Why don't we just ban Humans and Drakons, and be done with it? Exactly? Why single out canisters for negative attention, when one can wreak just as much (if not more) havoc with a Control Rod and a little bit of Shaping skill? Quote: But instead of playing the blame game, let's call a spade a spade. I am calling a spade a spade by pointing out cause and effect. The Rebellion is a direct response to an authoritarian regime. The Rebels are responsible for their own actions. However, the very act of Rebellion is indeed justified, and indeed inevitable, when the Shapers rule as they do. The Shapers, like the Empire, create enemies with their dracionian policies. Then they scratch their heads in bemusement when these policies come back to bite them. This isn't about blame. It's about a simple analysis of cause and effect. Where authoritarian and repressive regimes exist, rebellion will exist. When authoritarian and repressive regimes no longer exist to coerce individuals with violence, rebellion will no longer exist.