Ghaldring

Even if I take Divine Warrior and Elite Warrior, I'm still not going to have 20 blademaster by Lvl 24, so what's the point of taking EW in the first place?

Randomizer: Quote: You can buy 9 levels from Dixon in Tranquility. There is one level of pole weapons and 1/2 level for thrown weapons from books in Khora-Vysss and one level of melee weapons from the Vahnatai shade trainer in Kherebass. How do you afford that?

Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd Litalia is a very unique case- Wait, so you admit that there is variation in temperament amongst canister users? One can use canisters without automatically becoming an immediate threat to innocents? Quote: unlike most canister users, she realized that her humanity was slipping away and trained herself to regain it. Even so, she is less that stable. 'Less than stable' is a rather arbitrary term. Quote: Did you talk to the Awakened Core Complex Shaper? He was rather completely consumed by power lust. He was engrossed in his research, not going around torching villages and creating hordes of uncontrollable creations.

Nioca: Quote: There are also several that have felt it necessary. Your PC from GF1 Not really. In the ending where you use and then destroy the Geneforge, your PC retreats into the wilderness. They make no real attempt to use force to establish rule over pre-existing civilizations. Quote: and Monarch are both examples. Was Monarch trying to rule over anyone? Not really, he just liked to cause havoc, although I don't really remember what his motives were. Quote: First off, breeding pre-existing creations wouldn't come even close to being able to form a constantly regenerating army of monsters like Monarch had. It depends on the reproduction rate of the creation. But I agree that it is far easier to create swarms of Creations if you can Shape. Quote: And furthermore, while the Control Baton factored into it, 'Factored into it'? Um, no, the Control Baton was crucial in order for Monarch's tactic of 'release swarms of uncontrollable creations' to work. Otherwise they would have just turned on him and eaten him. That's precisely why Shapers don't like to make hordes of Creations. Quote: Monarch was able to hold the Shaper and Rebel armies off because he was the shaping equivalent of a mini-gun: He was shaping massive hordes of creations and throwing them wildly into the wind. Which can be achieved by anyone who can Shape. The Rebel ending for Geneforge 4 makes it very clear that non-canister augmented Shapers can indeed Shape lots of uncontrollable creations, they just choose not to. Unless they really have to, that is. So perhaps instead of banning canisters, the Shapers should ban Control Batons? Or maybe just ban Shaping outright? Are you a Trakovite? Quote: ..What? No, seriously. This wasn't a question of Rebel morals here. It was a point-blank statement regarding the amount of damage the Rebels have done to Terrestria. And I'm pointing out that the Rebellion exist precisely because of the highly authoritarian Shaper regime. The tight controls instituted by the Shaper government has led to reactionary groups such as the Awakened, the Takers, and the Rebellion.

Nioca: Quote: But canister usage does more than that. It also inspires megalomania and a strong desire for more power. So instead of having a slightly stable totalitarian government, we'd have a completely unstable totalitarian dictatorship. Conjecture. There have been serial canister users who did not feel it necessary to establish a totalitarian dictatorship. Off the top of my head: Lilita, Phariton, and the Shaper in the Awakened Core Complex (Geneforge 2). Quote: If bringing a sixth of a continent to it's knees A sixth? Quote: and holding it against large numbers of combined Shaper and Rebel forces is "some havoc", Monarch was able to hold such a large area primarily because he used a Control Baton, not because he guzzled canisters. Any non-canister altered Shaper could use the same technique. Even a regular non-Shaper could probably use a similar technique by breeding pre-existing creations. Quote: I'd hate to see what qualifies as total chaos. By that reckoning, the Rebellion is just a bit of rabble-rousing. The Shaper-Rebel war has caused far more devastation than Monarch. Remember, the Rebels captured Dhonal's Isle and Eastern Terrestia, until the Shapers retaliated. Quote: Which in turn pales when compared to the damage inflicted by the Rebels in order to gain control over Terrestria. We must be playing different games. Because from what I've seen, the Rebellion is a direct response to the highly authoritarian, repressive, and genocidal Shaper regime.

That's usually the justification authoritarians use when censoring, imprisoning and murdering their own citizens. Forgive me if I'm skeptical, it sounds like just a lot of weasel wording. I'd argue that the world is less safe when a totalitarian Shaper government can exert deadly force to kill citizens for simply engaging in self-experimentation, than if a few canister-deranged trouble makers were running about torching stuff. Monarch may have caused some havoc, but he wasn't the one who engaged in the wholesale slaughter of an entire race. The devastation he caused also pales in comparison to that inflicted by the Shapers in order to retain control over Terrestria.

Thuryl: Quote: Battle Disciplines also make characters a lot more versatile, though. When you need to cover a lot of ground in a short time (for example, when running away from enemies or past a volcanic area), there's no substitute for Adrenaline Rush That sounds more like a perk, which pales in comparison to increased spell damage/duration. And it's not an argument to select Elite Warrior as a second trait. I'm starting to think that pure spirit is the best second trait, for both mages and priests.

Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd Both of which are very highly regulated, and that regulation is the security measure. If citizens want to shape their own genome, why should the Shapers be entitled to prevent them from doing so? What did Benjamin Franklin once say? "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Originally Posted By: Nalyd Basically, how would security measures evolve? You can only be so safe while still actually being there. Dikiyoba would imagine some measures are already in place, since people can already learn how to cast fireballs illegally if they have the money to bribe a mage or smuggle a spellbook. Or they could just slip poison in your food, or smuggle in a fiery wand, or get a servile to stick a dagger in your back. If someone really wants to do you in, they generally will.

So based on Slarty's advice, I restarted with an all nephil party. Two nephil warriors which focused on archery, one nephil priest, and one nephil mage. As suggested, they all had divine warrior and elite warrior traits. I've almost finished Tranquility (I haven't got past the prime sentinel yet), and I just have to say. This party performs worse than my previous, non-optimised party. Several things have really been pissing me off. 1. Elite Warrior is virtually useless on my casters. - Heavier armour? No difference, because if your caster is hit on torment, they are dead no matter what. Sentinels dust them with one ranged attack. - Blademaster? WORTHLESS, because my casters only just obtained Well Aimed blow, and that's only because I spent precious skill points on bows to begin with*. Hell, even my warriors only have leg sweep, despite almost devoted investment in bows. - Parry? Worthless. My casters are rarely hit to begin with, and when they are, they rarely block. 2. I run out of spell points much quicker. By the time I've casted Augmentation/Haste, I have very few points left available for attack spells. This might be because: - Nephils gain levels slower, which translates into fewer SP. - Not having any magical efficiency. Magical efficiency really makes a difference. With about 5 points, your spell casting capacity increases by about 40%. It increases to 80%-100% with 10 points. And before any of you go "Well, why didn't you buy any from Shanker?", I couldn't. I didn't have the cash. A destitute group of adventurers, who would have thunk it? 3. Terror seems to be successful less often. The previous game, I beat Lystak by just terrifying him and then whacking him repeatedly with my slith pole user. This game such a strategy didn't work, and I got cleaned up repeatedly. It got so bad that I needed to exploit the crappy AI by taking the elevator down and shooting at Lystakk with impunity. I still feel guilty for exploiting the AI so shamelessly. 4. I'm not doing as much damage! I know that Slarty proposed that bows do more average (ie reliable) damage than pole weapons, but no. Pole weapons just own this game, they are the only resource-free way of outputting damage fast enough to survive combat later on. * I mentioned Battle Traits for casters above, and I've come to conclude that such a strategy is inferior to just investing in mage spells/spellcraft/magery. Here's how I see it. Essentially, you want to obtain a Battle Discipline of 20 to unlock Battle Frenzy, the holy grail of battle disciplines. Upon my testing, Battle Frenzy appears to increase ALL damage by 50-60%. That includes all targets inside an area of effect spell (icy rain). So the idea is to select Elite Warrior and Divine Warrior, in order to obtain a Blademaster of 20. Blademaster 20 will reduce 2 fatigue every around, allowing you to remain battle frenzied for all but one round. The problem here is that even with Elite Warrior and Divine Warrior, you will only obtain a Blademaster of 20 at level 48, which you're highly unlikely of reaching by the end game. But let's assume that we somehow do make it to level 48, with 18 mage spells and 10 spellcraft. Your firebolt would be hitting for average damage of (10 + 2*28) = 66 Battle Frenzy would boost that by 60% to an average damage of 106. Now let's say we had selected Natural Mage instead of Elite Warrior. At level 48, we would receive +10 to mage spells, for a total of 28 mage spells and 10 spellcraft. Your firebolt would be hitting for an average damage of (10 + 2 * 38) = 86. 86 damage is less than 106. A clear case for Elite Warrior and Battle Traits, then? Well, not really. First we have to obtain the Battle Discipline. At Level 48, a nephil will receive (48/8 + 2) 8 points to bows, and 8 points to thrown missiles. That equates to 8 battle skill. You need a further 12 battle skill to obtain Battle Frenzy, which translates into another 24 bow skill, which translates into a one hundred and eighty skill point investment! Let's assume you have found trained/found a few skill points in martial skills, and only need a 160 skill point investment. These 170 skill points could have been invested into 19 points of magery. So you would then have: 28 mage spells, 10 spellcraft, 19 magery. Your firebolt would be hitting for an average damage of (10 + 2 * 57) = 124 I tested my hypothesis out with the editor. Interestingly, the damage calculated at higher levels is more than observed in the game, which may be due to diminishing returns? But nevertheless, a Battle Frenzied caster with Elite Warrior does less damage when compared to a caster who selected Natural Mage and invested in Magery instead of bows. But magery/mage spells don't just effect spell damage, they also effect spell duration, hence saving spell points. They also add extra layers of acid damage to acid spray, and increase the likelihood of dazing (I'm not sure about whether your chance of terrifying increases). Battle Disciplines do not do any of these things. Seems like a clear case for humans. Thoughts?

Thread necromancy! Fast on Feet gives a flat 10% dodge bonus.

I honestly don't think that parry reduces damage by a means other than the 'block effect'. Still, the block effect essentially provides you with 30% damage reduction for most attacks.

You can take zero damage in Avernum 5, Slarty. And the 'no damage' is displayed in the message window. I tested this by pumping up hardiness to 41 and letting goblins hit me on 'Easy'.

Whoops, Thuryl is right regarding the confidence intervals I used not being appropriate to determine statistical significance. Standard error bars can determine it, though. But perhaps we're better off just using the Z test for two proportions, since I just found an online Z test calculator! http://www.dimensionresearch.com/resources/calculators/ztest.html If you enter in Slarty's values, you find that they aren't statistically significant. Note that the test assumes normal distribution, though. Quote: Our goal isn't to obtain statistically significant results, Your goal is to validate your hypothesis that parry reduces your PC's %chance to be hit. To do that, you can't just generate raw data, you also need to analyze it correctly. The problem is that a sample rarely (if ever) mimicks the population from which the sample was drawn from. The differences we observed in your data could just be due to random variability and chance, which is why we need to account for it via measures statistical significance before you can draw any conclusions. The problem here is that even though the data you obtained didn't demonstrate statistical significance, that doesn't mean that parry doesn't reduce % chance to be hit. Thuryl touched on this by mentioning 'power analysis', which simply means that you didn't have a large enough sample size to detect the effects of parry. But a sample size of 100 is quite large. I think the minimum is 20. And yeah, all this is probably overkill for a computer game. On the other hand, it's nice to put something I learnt during my horrible statistics units to some sort of use. All of that suffering wasn't in vain.

Slarty: Quote: After scratching my head, I ran another test to look at hit rates. This was more interesting. The printed hit rate was 22%, by the way. I allowed 100 strikes for each trial: Code: Unparried Parry Misses Hits Parries ----- ------ ----- ------- 0 78 22 0 (obviously) 10 87 10 3 The trial with Parry, I was hit almost half as often as the first trial, even accounting for the parried hits. You didn't include confidence intervals. Since I've long forgotten how to calculate them myself, I used an online calculator: http://www.dimensionresearch.com/resources/calculators/conf_prop.html Parry 0: 22% +/- 8.12% (13.88 to 30.12) Parry 10: 13% +/- 6.59% (6.41 to 19.59) The confidence intervals overlap, so there is no statistical significance there. That doesn't mean that parry doesn't offer damage protection, it just means that your data doesn't show it.

Slarty: Quote: I tested it repeatedly, empirically, and it offers very clear damage reduction to both physical and magical damage. From what I have seen, there is no reduction in physical damage. Quote: Of you are wearing lots of armor and the goblin warriors are very weak, Neither of which applied when I tested it. Quote: Write down some actual numbers, try the test in multiple circumstances, and then I'll be interested to hear your results. I'm pretty sure that someone has done that in the past. But when I get home, I'll do just that.

Slarty: Quote: First of all, Parry absolutely does offer damage reduction in addition to blocking attacks. It doesn't for me. I pumped it up to 30, and I noticed no significant reduction in damage from Goblin Warriors.

I've read through some of the old threads, and it's been mentioned that Elite Warrior may be better than Pure Spirit/Natural Mage for devoted Priests/Mages, respectively. Just to compare: Elite Warrior = Increase 1 pound of encumbrance per level Initial +2 parry and blademaster +1 to parry and blademaster every 8th level Natural mage = Initial +2 to mage spells +1 to mage spells every 6 levels. Initial 1 to mag efficiency +1 to magic efficiency every 10 levels. Can cast spells while wearing heavier armour Pure spirit = Initial 2 to priest spells AND magical efficiency +1 to mag efficiency and priest every 6 levels -------- IMHO, a dedicated spellcaster wants to maximize spell duration, damage and efficacy (ie. the chance to terrify/charm), while minimizing cost. This means that Natural Mage/Pure Spirit would fit the bill nicely. Being able to cast spells while wearing heavier armour is an added bonus. For Elite Warrior. You receive: - A higher encumbrance level. However, this higher encumbrance level is useless if you can't cast spells while wearing heavier armour. - Extra blademaster, which is useful in regards to reducing fatigue. But for a caster, a moderate reduction in fatigue isn't as useful as increased spell damage and reduced spell cost. - Extra parry. Having a chance to completely block a melee or missile attack is nice. However, as your devoted spellcasters shouldn't be in the frontline, they will mainly getting hit by area effect spells, which aren't blocked by parry. And yeah, I know that parry supposedly causes damage reduction, but I've never seen it do so! I pumped parry up to 30, and observed no damage reduction from physical goblin attacks. So essentially, you're sacrificing spell damage, duration, and efficacy, and increasing spell cost, so that you can have reduced fatigue and a 30% chance to block the occasional attack made against your backliners. BTW, I think it's rather surprising that Pure Spirit gives you more magical efficiency than natural mage.

Slarty: Quote: No. That doesn't happen. "Diminishing returns" refers to the fact that the same 5% or 1-4 (or whatever) bonus you get from a given skill is less valuable the more of it you have. How come???

Edit: I overlooked something important with my nephil. Removing the 'Elite Warrior' trait made me encumbered (Elite Warrior gives a huge bonus to the maximum encumbrance!), which explains why I was suffering a 5% penalty to hit when I removed the trait. My bad. So: Bow bonus = 5 Dexterity = 2 Bow skill = 7 Sharpshooter = 0 10% to hit enchantment from sword = 2 Armour penalty = 25% Overall % to hit = 55% That's close to 54%. I'm guessing there is a 1% margin because of the diminishing returns you receive from investing in a skill.

Did you go get the package from the box in Shayder?

By the way, I just realized why Elite Warrior increases my % to hit with bows by 5%. It must be due to it reducing the effect of encumbrance.

No, I don't have any luck on that character.

They are pretty lame monsters if they only have a point of dexterity.

You tap your red shoes together three times and say "I wanna go to the Great Walls!", where you are promptly hacked into roach food by waveblades.