Ghaldring

I edited my previous post because your definition of genocide was incorrect, Nioca. It would be wrong for me to make arguments based on a false premise, yes?

The U.N defines genocide as: http://rrojasdatabank.info/agfrank/nato_kosovo/msg00030.html Quote: "In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group as such: (a) killing members of the group; ( causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; © deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Note that attempting to wipe out groups with a particular political opinion does not constitute genocide according to the U.N. Also note that the Drakons aren't doing that, anyway. And what national group are the Drakons attempting to destroy?

feo: Quote: I almost laughed out loud when I had to save a drakon from torch-wielding villagers in G3, Where do you do that?

Nalyd: Quote: If Drakons wanted merely to survive, they could have disappeared into the wilderness, instead of starting a Rebellion Disappearing into the wilderness is a short term solution, at best. The Takers of were discovered in GF1 despite living on a barred island, and were also discovered in GF2 despite living in the wastes north of a failing Shaper colony. And once discovered, we all know what happens from there. Extermination. Except this time, the Drakons lose the element of surprise, and they have no real military might. It's called a 'pre-emptive strike', I believe. Quote: Revenge is certainly a factor here, as well it should be. Oh, I'm sure that opinion varies amongst the Drakon populance, and that they may have more than one motive. However, the most urgent and predominant aim at the moment is survival. Quote: Well, yes, of course the Shapers want the Drakons exterminated. Look at what they've done! What they have done is take the fight to the Shapers, a totalitarian regime which practices slavery and genocide. When you consider what the Shapers have done, perhaps it is only fitting that their Empire goes up in flames. Quote: When has a Drakon approached the Shapers peacefully? If you were marked for death simply because of your race, would you approach your exterminator peacefully? I sure wouldn't. But just off the top my head, didn't Ghaldring approach Lilita peacefully? They must also have approached Hoge. And Drakons in Geneforge 2 and 3 are willing to chat to your character, who is allied to the Shaper regime. And then there was that Drakon on the fifth island in GF3 who was trading with the Shapers. The Rebellion in general is usually more tolerant of younger Shapers, who they know can be reasoned with. But the older Shapers tend to be brainwashed by Shaper dogma, which makes very clear that all independent Creation life must be wiped out.

Nayld: Quote: Humans are more or less always looked down upon by Drakons. And serviles are more or less always looked down upon by humans and Drayks. Arrogance isn't a vice exclusive to only the Drakons. Evidence also suggests that arrogance isn't inherent in Drakons, but learned. For example, it is mentioned in GF4 that the Drakons were actually quite courteous to their rebel allies until they started losing, upon which many Drakons blamed their allies and became more bitter, haughty and resentful. Is such an attitude justified? No. But such an attitude is common amongst even humans, where different ethnicities, nationalities, religious groups and races are often scapegoated. Quote: Nalyd can't blame them for responding with violence, but that doesn't justify the Unbound. What happens if the Unbound are the level of violence that is required in order for the Drakon race to survive? IMHO, it's never unethical to fight for self-preservation against a militarily superior foe, even if innocents may suffer as collateral. Quote: Nalyd can't blame the Shapers for wanting them exterminated, either- they're very intelligent, if unstable, and dangerous. Since when was it a crime to be intelligent? And as for dangerous, that's absurd, especially when you consider how dangerous a human Shaper or mage is.

Well said, Sleep! What many posters refuse to realize or admit is that a Shaper will never sit down and reason with a Drakon, because that's contradictory to Shaper ideology. One of the primary tenets of Shaper beliefs is that Creations should always be submissive to Shapers and humans, so allowing independent creations to exist is anathema to the Shapers, especially something as strong and independent as a Drayk, let alone a Drakon or Eyebeast. The Shapers don't want peace, equality, or even superiority over the Drakon race. They want to exterminate them. They can't be bought or reasoned with, and they won't stop until every Drayk/Drakon/Eyebeast is dead and buried. They were on the doorsteps of the Drakon stronghold, intending to carry out their 'Final Solution'. What would you do if you were a Drakon? Lay down and die, or unleash the one thing which might save your race? At the end of the day, self-preservation wins out. The Shapers fight for control over their creations and a fragmenting Empire, whereas the Drakons fight for the survival of their race. That's the key difference many posters seem to be forgetting here.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Better to have the series end on a good, solid game than drag on with half-hearted installments. Dikiyoba. That's going in my signature.

Nioca: Quote: Unfortunately, I didn't make my context crystal clear. I was talking about all the Drakons we meet in-game. I understood you perfectly, and there is still no evidence that all the Drakons in the game support genocide. Quote: IN THE GAME. There's no supposition about it. Each and every Drakon we met was out for blood. Nonsense. I'm pretty sure that each and every Drakon was quite eager to defend themselves against the Shapers, though. Quote: Even the tamest amongst them, Ghaldring, was more than happy to spill the blood of Shapers and innocents alike. Happy? He wasn't happy about it. In fact, he made it quite clear that he thought of it as an unpleasant necessity required to ensure the continuation of the Drakon race. Quote: Also, it becomes evil when the act turns you into something worse than the monsters you're fighting. It depends on the context. Whether you like it on not, in this scenario, both sides are not equal. The Shapers are the totalitarian regime that have targeted all independent Creation life for extermination, the Drakons are the Creations targeted for extermination. Let's not forget that little fact. Quote: The Drakons proved that they have fewer moral stipulations on killing than the Shapers do. They have fewer limits. The Drakons are willing to do things the Shapers are not because they are more desperate, end of story. Even Alwan acknowledges that the Drakons have begun their 'mad' plan because of their losses and desperation. Quote: And they have a greater lust for power. Supposition. Quote: Also, I don't suppose you know anyone by the name of Lepus Timidus, right? I know of them.

madrigan: Quote: This could be part of my problem, though not most of it. I figured Divinely Touched would be a good idea because it's good in A4 and 5. Divinely Touched is next to useless in both Avernum 1 and Avernum 2. It gives you a couple of weak 'use-once-a-day' abilities, and that's it. And for that, you suffer a huge XP penalty, and are also prevented from taking a more decent trait. Quote: Great Reknown doesn't seem to do very much. It gives you a slight boost in your reputation, which is next to worthless. Not only does reputation decide very little, you can easily bump it up by just playing the game normally (ie. completing the necessary quests). Quote: What about Well Educated, or whatever it's called? I like the idea of sort of a Rogue Scholar-type character. Well Educated isn't necessary. If you're playing a three/four member party, then you'll have enough Rune Reading skill to learn all of the lvl 3 spells. Quote: By the way, does Natural Mage work for Clerics in A2? Yes, Natural Mage gives a boost to ALL spells cast, priest or mage, so you might want your priest to have it. Also, as Dikiyoba pointed out, it allows you to cast mage spells while wearing armour. I never bother with negative traits, although I can see some sense behind Diki's comment regarding Sickness Prone.

madigran: Quote: 1) Epic, intricate plot, *sobs* You should try playing Planescape: Torment.

From memory, Avernum 2 isn't that difficult if you take it slowly, and don't rush into big battles unprepared. For example, I wouldn't attempt to take on the Empire encampment south of Fort Draco until Chapter 4. What's important is knowing which traits are good, and which are bad. Elite Warrior, Natural Mage, Fast on Feet, Nimble Fingers, Strong Will and Toughness are all good 'good' traits, whereas Divinely Touched, Beastmaster and Great Renown suck big time. If you want to take two good traits per character, you might want to ditch your fourth character to make up the XP. I usually only need three characters anyway. Use magic to buff your fighters, especially shielding and battle rage, and upgrade buffing spells to lvl 2 as soon as possible. Incapacitate and damage the enemy with your spell casters. Use Bind Foe a lot, but DON'T upgrade it to level 2. Bind Foe is one of the rare spells which you don't want upgraded. Heal when you get damaged. I dunno, I'm surprised that you are finding the game difficult on Easy. Like I said earlier, perhaps you need to slow down, explore more, and pick your battles more carefully.

You can turn to the Rebels on Island 4, even if you destroyed the spawner on Island 3.

The Book of Items is missing quite a few unique items that can be found in Exile 2. When I was a little kid, I went through almost the entire game religiously noting down the location of every unique item, and then transcribed them onto my now defunct webpage. Yes, I loved Exile that much. Anyway, I saved a copy of my raw HTML onto some floppies, and I've now uploaded them. Enjoy! http://www.box.net/shared/g9sxuax440

Nioca: Quote: The Drakons aren't just temperamental, but also outright genocidal. So I think evil fits in this case. All of the Drakons are genocidal? You have in game evidence for this, right? Quote: Every Drakon in the game was behind letting the unbound loose on Terrestria. Supposition. And since when was it evil to do whatever is necessary to ensure the survival of your people?

How am I a troll? Because I dare challenge the supposed 'consensus' view in a passionate manner? May I remind you that I'm not the one making up BS. I mean, nonsense comments like: "And you still haven't explained why the more modern graphics suddenly became incorrect." and "Silly Luddite." help me understand exactly why Avernum 4 was so 'popular'. If these are the sort of fans the Avernum sequels attract, then Jeff should cease and desist.

My mistake.

Evnissyen: Quote: You sound like one of those music fans who get all upset when their favorite artist decides to do something different. This is just unbelievable. Do the misrepresentations never end? Why aren't posters jumping in to condemn such blatant dishonesty? Consider this: - One of my major complaints regarding Avernum 4 is the recycled plot and graphics. In case you're confused, in this context recycled does not = different. Quite the contrary, recycled pretty much means that material from previous games was REUSED. - Consider that my second major complaint is that the Avernum/Exile series should have ended at number 3, instead of beating a dead horse. If I didn't want something different, surely I'd be screaming for more Avernum clones? - I haven't raised any complaints regarding Nethergate or Geneforge, games which are incredibly 'different' from anything preceding them, and which involved technological advances. The above three observations just shoot holes in the accusation that I'm staunchly against 'progress' or 'something different'. Quote: And you still haven't explained why the more modern graphics suddenly became incorrect. Apparently Spiderweb forums is populated by either dishonest or obtuse posters, because I never claimed the above. But wait, it gets better. You then express confusion as to what I mean when I say 'pseudo-3D'. Again I ask: Why didn't you ask for clarification, instead of attacking a stance you couldn't comprehend? Why are you misrepresenting me? As it stands, it doesn't take a genius to at least have some idea as to what is meant by pseudo-3D (or 2.5D) graphics. Pseudo means 'not true' (claiming that pseudo = 'incorrect' is nonsense), suggesting that while the graphics appear to be 3D, they aren't actually 3D. One good definition of pseudo-3D would involve graphics which appear to be 3D, that are restricted to two dimensions. This fits Avernum to a tee, which employs isometric projection at a 45 degree angle. Quote: By the way: You've been sounding a little more than just a bit angry, lately. Maybe you should take a few deep breaths? None of us are out to get you, you know Not so much angry, as frustrated by the obtuseness, either willful or unintended, of several members on this forum. By the way, your childish attempts to provoke are noted, and disregarded. I think you need to realize that an attack against a computer game isn't an attack against you, no matter how much you may enjoy the game. Quote: Perhaps the "Geneforge recycling" accusation Accusation? It's not an 'accusation', it's an observation of fact. Graphics from Geneforge were shamelessly ripped and incorporated into Avernum 4 and 5. And when I [censored] about it, posters engage in ad hominems of 'What, are you afraid of progress/something different?', which is perhaps the most ironical statement ever made on Ironycentral. Goldman: Quote: You're right. The market's, as a whole, and Jeff Vogel's opinions are the only ones that matter. Avernum sells. Avernum IV sells. Avernum V sells. That's the best you've got? To counter, Phantom Menance sold. Checkmate.

Ale: Quote: Drakons and gazers aren't necessarily bad, its just that the originals were shaped for the sole purpose of destroying stuff, and are unable to truly grasp the principles of peace, freedom and justice, only their own power. Drayks were shaped for the sole purpose of destroying stuff, weren't they? Yet they are able to grasp the principles of peace, freedom and justice. Serviles were created to submit to the Shapers, yet that hasn't worked out so well either. The fact is that shaping Creations, especially sapient ones, involves a lot of unknowns which the Shapers cannot predict. Quote: However the same could be said of humanity, but most of us have more or less overcome the darker aspects of human nature. That's not the case in Geneforge, though. Numerous humans support/ed genocide, either directly or indirectly, arrogant Shapers and human mages being corrupted by power is a common occurence, and the ruling government is a totalitarian regime that employs torture and the death penalty. Quote: to just wipe out an entire race or species just cuz most of them are evil There's no in game evidence that most Drayks, Drakons, or Eyebeasts are evil. The Drayks and Drakons tend to be temperamental, while the Eyebeasts are recluse and haughty, but evil? Quote: I think the all the ones we actually meet in the game need to die, Why? If you're talking from a Shaper perspective, I can understand. But as an objective, unbiased observer, why do the Eyebeasts and Drakons in the game 'need' to die? Quote: and the only good drakons we meet are the barrier of the wind.) You only meet one drakon at the Barrier of the Winds, and he's young and confused.

Limper: Quote: Oooh! Nalyd believes we have a replacement for ET! 'Cept with a different series. And more irrational. A justification as to why my observations are 'irrational' would be nice. After all, what I've said on this thread isn't exactly new. Other Spiderweb veterans have also highlighted the inferiority of the new engine and graphics, as well as the piss poor plots of A4 and A5. Note that I'm not appealing to authority to justify my observations, but simply pointing out that I'm hardly some fringe nutjob. Quote: And less interesting. You think I'm posting here to amuse you? How conceited! Quote: Yeah, anyways, the graphics and plot of the later Avernums are matters of opinion Yes, but not all opinions are equal. While what one considers 'ugly graphics' is rather subjective and up to personal taste, distinguishing a good plot from a bad plot is far less subjective. Quote: - As was the revamping of Exile into Avernum. There was some Geneforge copying, but Jeff's graphic budget ain't that big, That didn't stop him from introducing an entire set of new graphics in Nethergate or Geneforge, giving them a personalised appearance. I wouldn't complain so much about recycled graphics if the plot (and the characters) weren't also recycled, but there's only so much I can take. Quote: Honestly, if you prefer Exile, play Exile. If you prefer Avernum, play Avernum. It's not like he replaced Exile, he just offered a more advanced alternative. The 'If you don't like it, don't play it' attitude is fair enough in most cases. Yet some veterans would see Avernum 4 and 5 as the equivalent of putting a pair of slacks on the Statue of David, or drawing a mohawk on the Mona Lisa. Exile 1-3 formed an excellent, self-contained trilogy, and Exile 2 was a true masterpiece, Jeff's 'Serpent Isle'. Having such a trilogy befouled by the likes of Avernum 4 is shameful, the equivalent of a "Phantom Menace" to the Star Wars trilogy, or "Ultima Ascension" to the Ultima Trilogy.

The Limper: Quote: Except, you know, none of the graphics look bad. That's a matter of opinion, isn't it? I'm quite happy with 3D graphics, as long as they don't look like blocky pieces of dog faeces. If you can't give me polished 3D graphics which haven't been shamelessly ripped from a totally different trilogy (read: Geneforge. What was Jeff thinking?), then just stick with the simpler, more charming graphics unique to that trilogy. Avernum's graphics were fine. Oh, and they were 3D. For some reason, I sense that is important to some posters here. Iffy: Quote: Ghaldring, I suggest you quit living in the past. Strange. I'm not the one gushing over Jeff continually 'remaking' his games and killing what was once a good series by concocting redundant, worthless pieces of tedium. The Exile trilogy ended back at Exile 3, why can't Jeff just let it die? Why does Jeff need to make the same errors that Groening and Lucas made? Quote: Also, for A4, the plot was necessary. No, the plot was not 'necessary'. The entire trilogy could have ended quite nicely back at Avernum Exile 3. Oh, but I think you're going to argue something along the lines of "Yeah, but you need Avernum 4 in order for Avernum 5 and 6 to occur, bla bla bla, look ma, no brain!" To that I reply 'bullocks'. You could slice Avernum 4 out of the trilogy, and Avernum 5 would still make perfect sense. Avernum 4 was a huge slap in the face to every Spiderweb fan veteran, an insult to our intelligence, a defiant extended middle finger from Vogel. Only someone new to the 'series' and who has no appreciation for a decent RPG would be hoodwinked. Quote: For A5, the only bad part about the plot was the fact that you weren't actually chasing Dorikas. You were just moving though areas learning about how he passed through. A similar concept was employed in Ultima: Serpent Isle, in regards to Batlin. Now, compare the plot of Serpent Isle to Avernum 5, and tell me which one is more immersive. Of course, you might not have played Serpent Isle, which wouldn't surprise me. You talk as though you wouldn't know a decent RPG if it falcon punched you in the face. Evnissyen: Quote: Ghaldring: Silly Luddite. Good stuff, calling me a Luddite and all, your non-existent powers of comprehension bedazzle me. You must ask yourself this question though: How can I be anti-progress if I prefer Avernum Exile 2 to Avernum Exile 1? In case you've forgotten, 1 comes before 2. Quote: You haven't explained your terms. If you were oh so confused about my terms, great one, why didn't you ask for clarification, instead of presumptuously proclaiming: "I'm also not sure why the 3d graphics of A4 & A5 are, to you, false, whereas the more primitive graphics in the original trilogy are correct." By the way, you haven't explained to me why you automatically associate 'newer' with 'better'. Do you mean to tell me you'd rather drink the urine I squeezed out just a few minutes ago, instead of red wine which has aged in the cask for over fifty years? Because it's the same story with Avernum 4 vs. Avernum Exile 2. Avernum 4 is the new piss, Avernum Exile 2 is the aged red wine. Even a half-wit with a modicum of taste would choose the red wine over the piss.

Eynissyen: Quote: It's called progress. Is that what it is called? I was thinking more along the lines of 'abomination'. Quote: I'm also not sure why the 3d graphics of A4 & A5 are, to you, false, whereas the more primitive graphics in the original trilogy are correct. I like how you associate primitive with bad, and newer with good. To put it simply, if it looks like a turd, then it's a turd. It doesn't matter how new and shiny said turd may be.

Bathos: Quote: What's your favourite Avernum? Justification, please! Everyone loves offering their opinion, hey? I'd say that for me, the ranking goes: 1. Avernum 2 2. Avernum 3. Avernum 3 ---------- 4. Avernum 5 5. Avernum 4 Avernum 2, Avernum and Avernum 3 are all pretty neat games. Avernum 2 manages to edge ahead simply because of the plot. The introduction of the Vahnatai was one of Jeff's best innovations, and the war against the Empire is quite evident throught the game, adding a very tense atmosphere. I also enjoyed how Avernum 2 started with a rather linear plot, and then branched out once you reached the Vahnatai lands to give the player ultimate freedom. Avernum sneaks ahead of Avernum 3 simply because I could actually managed to finish it, whereas I found the redirection of the lasers in the final fortress infuriatingly annoying (I redirected them all into the centre, and still nada!) Avernum 3 also has a couple of gameplay weaknesses that aren't present in Avernum (eg several impotent spells, Level 3 lower tier spells located in weird places) I think it's rather deceptive to place Avernum 4 and 5 anywhere near Avernum 1-3. Avernum 4 and 5 are just awful. The pseudo-3D graphics are hideous and reek of Geneforge (I actually enjoy Geneforge, but come on, why the blatant cross-over?), and the game engine is just crap. Just a few of my gripes: - The spell system is plain retarded (why purchase more levels of the same spell?) - You can't obtain special abilities, - The means why which you earn special skills is plain annoying. - Losing the ability to make your own potions. - Combat is repetitive, tedious, and wears on your nerves. - Your clicker finger will suffer from RSI after one hour of playing. And let's not forget having to kill, over and over again, chitraches. Oh, and the ridiculous plot of both. The series should have stopped with Avernum 3.

I had the very same idea. While NPC's can pick up poison potions you drop for them, they don't seem to drink them.

There are a lot of potions/scrolls/wands in Avernum (especially Avernum 3), and I was wondering which ones you veterans use throughout the games. For me, Potions: Invulnerability Elixir Heroic Brew Knowledge Brew Energy Potion/Elixir Healing Potion/Elixir Scrolls: Divine Host Dispel Barrier Wands: Wand of Bolts/Ice/Lightning/Fire, but only early on.

You can buy them from the Thieves Guild in Lorelei. By the way, how do people here pronounce 'Anama'? I say it as Awnahmah.