Ghaldring

Nioca: Quote: That's a new one. Exploiting serviles they didn't even know existed. How do you propose they did that? Are you obtuse? The Shapers became aware of the Obeyers at the end of GF1, and were quite willing to tolerate them, as they believed in slavish servitude to the Shapers. Strangely enough, the Shapers disbanded the Awakened, a peaceful sect. I wonder why? Quote: FYI, I believe that if a servile wants to be in the service of a Shaper, I'm in no position to stop him/her. If they're happy slaving away for a Shaper, who am I to put a stop to it? LOL, what? When 'happily slaving away for a Shaper' and 'opposing creation freedom and independence' are the pre-requisites for your continued existence, then I'd argue that the Shapers aren't making progress at all, because that's how things were prior to negotiation. Restoring the status quo via employing bribery and coercion isn't exactly progress. Quote: Truth is, the total lack of an attempt to negotiate on the Rebellion's part is just another example of why this rebellion needs to be put down. Wait, so now the Rebellion didn't negotiate? But you admitted previously that it did negotiate? Maintain some consistency, thanks. And as I pointed out earlier, there was no point in negotiation with the Shaper regime, as the answer would have been obvious: We will never accept the existence of independent creations. And the Rebellion would have lost the element of surprise, which was arguably the very reason they were able to initially conquer so much of the mainland. Quote: And yet the Shapers did a little more than tolerate that lone little Rebel Servile. They actually, near the end, wound up taking it in. They wind up installing it as a puppet leader in a formerly rebellious province, sort of like how the Nazis installed puppets over Jewish sectors in Germany. Big deal.

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/warsaw%20ghetto%20liquidation.html Quote: Responsible leaders of the "Great Action" ... Executive bodies: The Warsaw Order Police, a small unit of the Warsaw Security Police, a special unit of Volksdeutsche and the Jewish Order Service. Later SS-men from the forced labour camp in Trawniki played the main part in the ghetto liquidation. The Jewish Order Service (Police) played an important role during the early stages of the "Great Action". The Jewish Police commander Josef Szerynski had been arrested by the Germans on 1 May 1942, on charges of smuggling furs from the ghetto to the Aryan side of the city. Jakob Lejkin, his deputy, took over the command and exactly carried out the German orders, saying that it is better not to leave it to the cruel Germans. The 2,000 - 2,500 Jewish policemen and their families were promised immunity by the Germans for their co-operation. As the "action" progressed they began to understand that they were not more than a tool of the Germans and their future like ordinary Jews was clouded in doubt. Therefore they began to desert in droves. The German's response: each policeman was personally ordered to bring in five heads per day for deportation. Those who did not fulfill this order were threatened with having their relatives transported to make up the difference. Good ole Nazis, negotiating with Jews. Guess those Nazis were 'progressing' by allowing the Jews to work for them, hey Nioca? Also, note that it wasn't as if these Jewish collaborators just ran screaming to the Nazis, saying, "I want to join you and destroy the Jews!" Quite the contrary. The Nazis made an active effort to obtain Jewish cooperation by promising immunity to the participating Jews and their families, and then through coercion if carrots didn't work.. Much like the Shapers do with your PC throughout Geneforge 4. "We promise you immunity once the war is done.", and if you ever waver "Don't double cross us, or we'll kill you." Uhh, checkmate!

Nioca: Quote: thought we were talking about GF4? And if you just made a typo: so you admit it is progress. Yes, it was a typo, and no, I don't consider it progress. As I pointed out earlier, the Shapers were exploiting serviles who weren't totally mindless as early as Geneforge 1 (ie. The Obeyers). The catch: Slavish obedience to the Shapers. And as I stressed earlier: Joining the Shapers != living independently. Quote: Ghaldring: Um, yes? Wait, are you implying that the Drakons also engaged in negotiation with the Shapers when they allowed Lilita, Greta, and the PC from GF3 to join? Yes. They used to. No, they didn't. They engaged in 'negotiation' with individual Shapers, aiming to turn them against the Shaper collective. They definitely didn't attempt to negotiate with the Shaper collective, and who could blame them? Quote: Check, but not mate. It wasn't as if you just ran screaming into the Shaper camp, saying, "I want to join you and destroy the rebellion!" The Shapers actually reached out to you, and took a major risk in doing so. You think that the Nazis didn't request that Jews spy for the Nazis? How incredibly naive! This may surprise you, but the Nazis were willing to tolerate a Jew (although just barely), as long as he was providing them with an important service. Such as spying, a puppet to keep the Jews placid, or as policemen to keep order.

*cough* That's hilarious, Diki. Here, have a sugar cube.

Nioca: Quote: Hello! Rebel servile joining Shapers! Are we even playing the same game here? Hello! Joining the Shapers != living independently. And what the Shapers do in Geneforge 3 is hardly progress, as they have been doing that since Geneforge 1. Quote: Sort of like how the Rebellion allowed a Shaper to join them so long as he acted in their best interests to destroy the Shapers? Um, yes? Wait, are you implying that the Drakons also engaged in negotiation with the Shapers when they allowed Lilita, Greta, and the PC from GF3 to join? Quote: The Rebellion can also be compared to the Nazi regime, along with a couple other unpleasant organizations. I'm simply pointing out that even some of the most intolerant regimes on Earth allowed turncoats to work for them, despite the fact that said turncoat belonged to a group that the regime wished to destroy. My analogy is highly relevant. Checkmate!

I wonder why this style: http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/5580/canon2yt0.png was chosen for the Shaper council? It looks like a murky water painting.

I think they are intended to be Drakons.

Shaper Loyalists, Barzites, Takers, Awakened. Can you guess why the Awakened are last? Edit: You placed me on ignore? WTF?! How are you able to read this thread?

Kyshaak's have buckets of health, though. And they make a cool dinosaurian sound when they die. What more do you need?

Interesting. Why can't you understand the other two numbers? If the tongs are in the game data, there must be some way to retrieve them, yes? But then, I know jack all about code.

Nioca: Quote: Yeah, the "every Shaper needs to die" aspect really screams of diplomatic prowess. The Rebels aren't interested in diplomacy, because they know the Shapers too well. There's no way in hell the Shapers would ever allow serviles to exist independently of Shapers, let alone Drayks and Drakons. Quote: Heck, the Shapers allowed a Rebel creation to join them. If the Rebel Creation acts in the Shaper's best interests to put down the Rebellion. It might also be a good time to point out that Jews served in the Nazi army. Guess the Nazi regime wasn't so intolerant after all! Quote: That doesn't sound like negotiation with the Shapers is impossible. Are you obtuse?

Thank you, Crackle. I don't go out of my way to be offensive, but I don't attempt to conceal what I'm thinking either.

The Drakons have been around since Geneforge 2. I think they are here to stay.

That doesn't explain why the sketches don't seem as... good.

The Drakons make negotiation difficult, but the Shapers prevent negotiation. Perhaps now that the Unbound are released, the Shapers might think about trying to negotiate in Geneforge 5, although I doubt it. As they state in the rebel ending of Geneforge 3, they would rather see the world reduced to cinders, than not be the rulers of it.

For comparison: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/Red_Wizard/gf3rebel3.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/Red_Wizard/trajkov1.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/Red_Wizard/gf3rebel6.jpg http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/5580/canon2yt0.png http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/Red_Wizard/trajkov3.jpg

Why are the graphics for the intro and endgame of Geneforge 3 so poor in comparison to GF1 and 2?

Yeah, but you give no advice on how to powergame the four sects. It's never really been resolved as to how one can milk the four sects for all that they are worth.

Yeah, but what happens if Akhari tells you about the boat, THEN you kill him? Will that affect the ending?

I'm a postgraduate.

I've written up a short walkthrough on how to powergame the sects in GF2, milking them for all that they are worth. In theory, it makes sense. All of it is based on personal experience and the mechanics of the game. However, I haven't done a complete play through with it. So, is anyone willing to try it out for me? Follow the directions in my walkthrough and see if things work out. If there are any volunteers, PM me.

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen I'm surprised that for once I kind of agree with Ghaldring, in the sense of asking for entire character builds. I'm absolutely certain it won't last. I mean: give the boy a break, he actually has a point, for once.... Boy?

Wait, from memory you don't need to open all three gates in that tomb. Just the first two, and then you can avoid the third by going through an illusionary wall. I think.

I'm still of the opinion that developing your own character is half the fun of a role playing game, and that by telling him how to develop his character, I'd be detracting from his enjoyment of the game. Maybe I'm a bit old school.

It's been a while since I've played A2. Have you searching for secret walls? Use Far Sight. And do you have ample Vahnatai lore?