The best creations?

[Questionmarks.]

Which are the best creations to have with you?

tell me an army with at least 5-7 creations,i prefer 5,but tell me the best armies to fight with,any suggestions are nice.

[Retlaw May]

Best to have some diversity. Most people like having at least one wingbolt. Drakons are generally supposed to be good along with its two predicesors. I've heard mixed reviews on eyebeasts.

[Alorael at Large]

What you want to use depends on where you are, how much essence you have, and how you're playing. Wingbolts and drayks are generally good. I haven't been using gazers much, so I can't comment. For the first half or two thirds of the game nothing gives the same bang for your buck as fyoras and cryoas.

 

—Alorael, who is also very fond of using an army of five or six permanent creations with a couple of cannon fodder or temporary helpers. There are a lot of times when you'll want to be able to throw acid around, and roamers are great for it.

[Dark Mage]

With my infiltrator I just had 2 creations, a Khyshakk or whatever, and a drayk... Maybe I should have more but I needed the essence for spells, maybe i'm not a good geneforge player yet...

I like khyshakks but their energy runs out too fast, not like drayks and drakons. I'm not very used to battle creations so I don't know them very well...

[Darkdread]

What is the Wingbolts' class? fire? magic?

 

Dark Mage: another fellow from Chile?? greetings

[Randomizer]

Wingbolts are magic class, tier 4.

 

For the first two chapters a flock of fyoras or a swarm of artilas will do just fine. Cryoas are nice, but they have to bite shades and use up essence.

 

Drayks are great general purpose creations that will make it through the remainder. Wingbolts are nice, but take a lot of essence and will run out of energy. Kyshakks make great shields with their massive health.

 

If you just want one creation then get a drakon. Gazers don't deal out enough damage in fights with ur-drakons and will run out of energy. Never tried an eyebeast.

[Enraged Slith]

I always like Ur-Glaahks and Terror Vlish. Of course, I don't know how good they are (or if they exist) in Geneforge 4. Stunning doesn't seem to be as deadly in Geneforge 4 due to the new AP system, so Glaahks probably aren't as useful. However, terror is always a useful spell.

[Vicheron]

I think that Cryoas Roamers, Drayks, Cryodrayks, and Wingbolts are the best creations. You can get Cryoas before you leave Southforge and they stay useful throughout the game if you evolve them. Roamers are a good and cheap source of acid damage. Drayks only do a bit less damage than Drakons but they cost a lot less. Cryodrayks do cold damage, which is resisted less than fire and magic. Wingbolts just do a lot of damage, plus their bite is poisonous, which can be useful since not many creatures resist poison.

 

Kyshakks, Rotghroths, and Eyebeasts are pretty good too. Kyshakks do less damage than Wingbolts but they have a lot more health and their lightning aura is actually pretty good against creatures that resist magic. Rotghroths are probably the only Battle Creation worth making due to their chance of double attack and acid touch. Rotghroths are also useful to have since the melee damage of Fire and Magic creations seemed to have been significantly reduced. Eyebeasts are very powerful but they're also very expensive.

 

I don't think that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are worth their cost. Drakons and Ur-Drakons do more damage and have more health than Drayks but it's just cheaper to create more Drayks or to level and evolve Drayks. Gazers have better resistance, health, and melee damage but they do about the same range damage.

 

You can go through the game with only Fire Shaping. You cover all the elements, Roamers cover enemies in acid, Fyora/Drayks/Drakons/Ur-Drakons do fire damage, Kyshakks do magic damage, and Cryoas/Cryodrayks are the only creations that do cold damage.

[Questionmarks.]

mm,i was thinking something expensive...like this.

2 Rotghroth

2 Gazer

1 Drakon

 

or for a cheaper version...

2 Glaahk

2 Battle alpha

1 Drayk

[Hume]

Ur-drakons are absolute nessecity since not only they have the best offence and defence, but also their attack slows their victims. The only creations need to keep at the end are Drakons, Ur-drakons, Gazers and Wingbolts.

[Vicheron]

You won't get Ur-Drakons until the end of the game while you can have Drayks and Wingbolts for half the game.

[Dark Mage]

I think that shaping ur-drakons is irrational, because there is no such creatures mentioned in the game.

 

Marcelo aren't you Nazgul?(I think that was your old name...)y d q parte eres?

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Dark Mage:
I think that shaping ur-drakons is irrational, because there is no such creatures mentioned in the game.

Uh, yes there are. The red drakons in the game are ur-drakons; they're drakons that have been modified by the Geneforge.

[Dark Mage]

Oh ok then...

And what does the "UR-" thing mean?

[Micawber]

In this case it means better and stronger. Really ur- means original or earliest, but in usage it has come to mean extreme or outstanding in a general sense. For example:

 

1983 Sunday Tel. 13 Mar. 14/6 Russell Hoban is an ur-novelist, a maverick voice that is like no other.

[Darkdread]

Quote:

Originally written by Dark Mage:
I think that shaping ur-drakons is irrational, because there is no such creatures mentioned in the game.

Marcelo aren't you Nazgul?(I think that was your old name...)y d q parte eres?

No Amigo, I have never been Nazgul, y soy de Punta Arenas!!!!!!!! al suuuuur y tú compatriota??

[Stillness]

Quote:

I don't think that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are worth their cost. Drakons and Ur-Drakons do more damage and have more health than Drayks but it's just cheaper to create more Drayks or to level and evolve Drayks.

The only problem with this line of reasoning is that the number of creations you can have is limited to 7. You can't just create more drayks once you reach the limit, so it's not a question of quality v. quantity. My 3 drakons, 2 cryodrayks and eyebeast would own your 7 drayks.

Quote:

mm,i was thinking something expensive...like this.
2 Rotghroth
2 Gazer
1 Drakon

or for a cheaper version...
2 Glaahk
2 Battle alpha
1 Drayk

The question is what kind of build does your PC have? Are you good at melee and magic and low on essence? If you are, a cheap build can work (although your particular cheap build looks a little melee heavy and I have found alphas to be quite lame. glaaks and alphas cost the same as drayks, i'd say drop 1 glaahk and one alpha or both alphas and make 2 more drayks. What might be even better is to go all drayk). If you are a lifecrafter though, nothing beats a strong team. You have all that essence to make big mean monsters, so make them.

Everyone always talks about how magic is the most powerful path, but I feel it's shaping. My lifecrafter and shocktrooper trampled over enemies quicker and with much greater ease than my servile and infiltrator. In so many encounters my team never takes any damage, not because i stun, daze, slow, or terrorize, but because I go first and there are no more enemies for a second round. Yes the PC will be weaker, but that's what essence armor, steel skin, and augmentation are for. Besides, it doesnt matter how strong you are if your enemy is a pool of blood.

[Questionmarks.]

To be honest,i think a pure lifecrafter meaning (no magic,or anything besides shaping skills)

is the best,just use healing craft spells for your creations and let them fight for you,thats how its supposed to go...i think.

[Sudanna]

Cower near the exit zone area and send your creations out. When threatened, absorb everything and leave. It's only a problem when you have to open doors.

[Questionmarks.]

so,you agree with my idea? most people would say "give your shaper magic skills"

i would train..

mechanics (of course)

leadership (of course)

heal craft

fire shape (for high level creations

magic shape (for high level creations)

battle shape (if you want high level creations.)

endurance (sorta need)

intelligence (duh)

and why do people tell me not to raise any of your shaping skills above 10?

[Alorael at Large]

You probably could win with only shaping, but only by keeping your character out of combat and sending your minions ahead, then leaving and returning whenever you run out of essence. It's not an optimal build by any means. A small investment in magic makes your shaper useful rather than just a way to move critters around.

 

After 10 points, shaping skills start losing their effectiveness. You no longer get one level per skill point.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't see any reason to waste skill points on three different kinds of shaping. You can do just fine with any one. Battle creations just aren't that tempting, and you can decide whether you prefer fire or magic.

[Dark Mage]

Quote:

Originally written by Marcelo:

Quote:

Originally written by Dark Mage:
I think that shaping ur-drakons is irrational, because there is no such creatures mentioned in the game.

Marcelo aren't you Nazgul?(I think that was your old name...)y d q parte eres?

No Amigo, I have never been Nazgul, y soy de Punta Arenas!!!!!!!! al suuuuur y tú compatriota??

Uhhh vivi bien a la conchesumadre!!

Yo soy de talca, = bkn punta arenas me gustaria ir algun dia

Estabai en el foro desde el 2003 y nunca posteabai? es que abia otro tb de chile que tb era mas antiguo q yo, pero no lo veo ace tempo...

[Vicheron]

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
[QB]

Quote:

I don't think that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are worth their cost. Drakons and Ur-Drakons do more damage and have more health than Drayks but it's just cheaper to create more Drayks or to level and evolve Drayks.

The only problem with this line of reasoning is that the number of creations you can have is limited to 7. You can't just create more drayks once you reach the limit, so it's not a question of quality v. quantity. My 3 drakons, 2 cryodrayks and eyebeast would own your 7 drayks.

I never said that you should only make Drayks. I also never said that you should pick quantity over quality. I said that you could make more Drayks than Drakons or level and evolve them to become better than Drakons but with a lower essence cost since you can get Drayks much earlier than Drakons. There's also the fact that 3 Drakons, 2 Cryodrayks and an Eyebeast costs twice as much essence as 7 Drayks. Let's also not forget that there are 5 classes and three of them don't have the essence to make many high level creations.

[Darkdread]

Quote:

Uhhh vivi bien a la conchesumadre!!

Yo soy de talca, = bkn punta arenas me gustaria ir algun dia

Estabai en el foro desde el 2003 y nunca posteabai? es que abia otro tb de chile que tb era mas antiguo q yo, pero no lo veo ace tempo...[/QB]

Jeje yes, me cambio al ingles pa que no piensen que los estamos pelando jeje ;-) I sometimes posted in the avernum forums I didn't know there was someone else from Chili here, that's cool. Debes tener un muy buen ingles porque estos juegos se basan en la comprension jeje, no creo que seamos muchos los de chile jeje saludos!

greetings!

[Hume]

It is a problem of quantity vs quality. Drayks and most other creatures (even war troll) miss a lot in late game. Besides they don't have good enough hit points and resistance to survive. Area affect spell will be nightmare for your lower-tier army.

 

Besides, a drayk can never be evolved or upgraded as powerful as a drakon. Out of the question.

 

A minimal party for a lifecrafter at the end should be a ur-drakon (for slow), a drakon and two wingbolts. They provide reliable fire and magic damage, cost a total essence less than 800.

[Randomizer]

The minimal party at the end is a drakon and a gazer or wingbolt. I know from experience. You can use all that extra essence to buff up your creations.

 

But really quantity is somewhat better than quality since with mass energize you get more attacks per round. Even if they do a little less damage the attacks mount up and you can go after more targets. You might lose a creation, but you can kill more opponents in a single round before they even get to attack.

[Lilith]

Mind you, that assumes you're using canisters. If you're not, an all-Wingbolt army is actually a pretty good choice. They survive pretty well, and do tremendous amounts of damage (except to magic-resistant opponents, which mostly attack with magic as well so you won't be taking much damage either). Their only real weaknesses are Eyebeasts and Unstable Firebolts, which resist magic but attack with fire. Fortunately, you don't meet either of those particularly often.

[Stillness]

Vicheron, I was responding to you comment that the high level creations aren't worth the essence. I say basically the same thing you say regarding classes/builds in the latter part of my post. If you're working with a servile an couple of drayks or cryodrayks are cool. Still, I doubt that you can make a drayk better than a drakon. Then there is the matter of effect (e.g. ur-drakon, eyebeast) that can't be duplicated with lower levels.

[Dark Mage]

Quote:

Originally written by Marcelo:

Quote:

Uhhh vivi bien a la conchesumadre!!

Yo soy de talca, = bkn punta arenas me gustaria ir algun dia

Estabai en el foro desde el 2003 y nunca posteabai? es que abia otro tb de chile que tb era mas antiguo q yo, pero no lo veo ace tempo...

Jeje yes, me cambio al ingles pa que no piensen que los estamos pelando jeje ;-) I sometimes posted in the avernum forums I didn't know there was someone else from Chili here, that's cool. Debes tener un muy buen ingles porque estos juegos se basan en la comprension jeje, no creo que seamos muchos los de chile jeje saludos!

greetings![/QB]

En realidad he contado como cuatro, nosotros dos, el nazgul que te digo, pero no es precisamente chileno, y otro wn que el otro dia me agrego al msn, que es de santiago, talvez algun dia veo si lo recluto...

And I have a question, what's the difference between eyebeast and gazer? Ovbiously their traits, but their attack are the same??

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Dark Mage:
And I have a question, what's the difference between eyebeast and gazer? Ovbiously their traits, but their attack are the same??

No, they're very different. A Gazer attack is equivalent to Kill: lots of magical damage to one target. An Eyebeast attack is equivalent to Aura of Flames: lots of fire damage to all targets. (Note that Eyebeasts will run out of spell energy for their attacks a lot faster than Gazers will.)

[Sudanna]

Plus, Eyebeasts are green!

 

Is it a bad sign if the first seven posts on Today's Active Topics list are by you?

[Dark Mage]

Quote:

Originally written by Dr. Strange:
Plus, Eyebeasts are green!

Is it a bad sign if the first seven posts on Today's Active Topics list are by you?

Who? me?

And thanks I remembered gazers casting kill, but I have never got the 3 gazer skill points to create an eyebeast.

[Synergy]

Eyebeasts sure are fun.

 

They may not be the most practical creation, but if you can afford the indulgence, there's something maniacally satisfying about redlining a half dozen critters all at once with one or two rounds of dual bursts of Aura of Flames.I enjoyed having an Ur-Drakon, a Drakon, and an Eyebeast at endgame with an Infiltrator.

 

-S-

[Vicheron]

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
Vicheron, I was responding to you comment that the high level creations aren't worth the essence. I say basically the same thing you say regarding classes/builds in the latter part of my post. If you're working with a servile an couple of drayks or cryodrayks are cool. Still, I doubt that you can make a drayk better than a drakon. Then there is the matter of effect (e.g. ur-drakon, eyebeast) that can't be duplicated with lower levels.

Your reasoning is flawed. If you wanted to prove to me that high level creations are worth their essence then you should have made an example comparing an army of lower level creations with an army high level creations that cost the same essence. You aren't proving anything by comparing an army that costs 1000 essence with an army that costs 500 essence. Obviously the army that costs way more essence is going to be more powerful. Even an army of the same creations evolved to cost 1000 essence is going to be more powerful than the same army that has only been evolved to cost 500 essence. A much better example would be a Drayk and a Wingbolt, which costs 227 essence, vs. a Gazer, which costs 219 essence. It's not very good idea for a Servile, Infiltrator, or Warrior to trade a Drayk and a Wingbolt for a Gazer. Even Shock Troopers and Lifecrafters rarely have the essence to field more than 4 level 4 creations.

I also never said that Eyebeasts aren't worth their cost. I said that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are not worth their cost.

[Lilith]

In my experience, a higher-tier creation will always survive much, much better than a lower-tier creation. A Drakon costs about as much essence as two Drayks, and has as much HP as both of them put together -- the two Drayks will do more total damage per round, but only if you keep them alive (a Wingbolt, for example, can kill an unprotected Drayk in one hit). I generally switched to a higher tier whenever I was consistently having difficulty keeping lower-tier creations from dying.

 

I agree that wingbolts are generally better value than gazers, though.

[Dikiyoba]

You know, I'm a bit underwhelmed by drayks at the moment. Partway through Burwood, mine has slightly less health and costs slightly more essence than my fyora. It resists fire better and has a stronger ranged attack, but the melee attack is the same as my fyora's. It gets terrified easier and, since it goes last in almost any combat, it is often out of position (and gets killed more often for it) and only kills enemies after they get a chance to attack. It's not a bad creation, it's just less impressive than I had hoped.

 

Plus, there's the whole suspension of disbelief factor. You would think the Shapers would comment after seeing Dikiyoba's character walking around with a banned creation in tow and the drayks would be upset with a dumb, obedient drayk named "Squib".

[Stillness]

Quote:

If you wanted to prove to me that high level creations are worth their essence then you should have made an example comparing an army of lower level creations with an army high level creations that cost the same essence.

If you want to prove that they're not worth the essence then you should do the same.

I guess the only real problem is that i don't have the numbers for my experience. For example, I decided that I would use cryoas instead of cryodrayks. But even when I used my cryoas skill points to raise his stats he did not seem as good as a cryodrayk. It seemed that he missed more often, had lower endurance, didn't hit as hard, and got hit harder.

I'm almost midway through the game now on a shock trooper and am still using cryoas. I guess I'll try to do a side-by-side comparison when I get drayk to 3.

Quote:

It's not very good idea for a Servile, Infiltrator, or Warrior to trade a Drayk and a Wingbolt for a Gazer.

Agreed.

Quote:

Even Shock Troopers and Lifecrafters rarely have the essence to field more than 4 level 4 creations.

I also never said that Eyebeasts aren't worth their cost. I said that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are not worth their cost.

The first time I went through the game with a lifecrafter I had 3 drakons, an eyebeast, and 2 cryodrayks. I still had 109 essence left to take care of my team. I rolled over all opposition with much greater ease than my servile or infiltrator. I felt like i was cheating somehow. I guess if what you're saying is true I could've gotten the same bang with 3 fyoras 2 cryoas and the beast. Man, that would save a lot of skill points into INT if it were true!

Like I've said before, a great deal depends on your playing style and class. If youre strong on shaping then you can easily max out your 7 creation slots and have a bunch more essense to spare. That's when i think high levels become valuable. I reckon the real issue in our little discussion is this: Is a trained low level creation as good as a high level one?

[Randomizer]

A trained low level creation will never have the same strenght, endurance, and near dexterity for the same essence cost. At least that was what I saw during beta testing. I ran with two artilas that I kept adding strength essence in order to keep them competitive on damage. Eventually I replaced them.

 

High level creations tend to be more resistant to terror and charm. Although that probably depends upon the ones you have.

 

I always liked my gazer over the wingbolt since it has higher health even though it costs more in essence. I guess it comes down to how quickly you can kill the opposition. I still like drakons at the end since the have a higher effective damage versus ur-drakons. Cryodrayks also when they have been around for a chapter are useful even though they run out of spell energy.

[Drayk Armitage]

Ugh, terminology people! Things will get very confusing very fast if you use "level" to refer to "tier" when every creation also has an experience level.

 

Some low tier creations can compete with high tier ones, but in order for that to work you basically have to devote all your energy into making them as soon as possible with a high shaping skill. Cryoas vs Cryodrayks is probably the best example, since there are no other ice creations and cryoas CAN be just as good as cryodrayks, with a few plusses and minuses.

 

Cryoas however are uniquely suited to this, since they are available very early but have a high base level. But you can certainly have Artila, Vlish, Roamers, or Drayks that are playable in the endgame, if perhaps not preferable.

 

The one big downside to low tier creations is their lack of mental resistance, which gets very annoying eventually. (ALL tier 4 and 5 creations have very high mental resistance.) There are items which can help compensate, most notably the Stasis Shield, but some of those are hard to acquire.

[Vicheron]

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:

Quote:

If you wanted to prove to me that high level creations are worth their essence then you should have made an example comparing an army of lower level creations with an army high level creations that cost the same essence.

If you want to prove that they're not worth the essence then you should do the same.

I did do that with my Drayk + Wingbolt vs. Gazer example. A Drayk and a Wingbolt cost 8 more essence than a Gazer but they can do much more damage and they have two element types and physical melee attacks so they can deal with resistances better than a Gazer.

Quote:

I guess the only real problem is that i don't have the numbers for my experience. For example, I decided that I would use cryoas instead of cryodrayks. But even when I used my cryoas skill points to raise his stats he did not seem as good as a cryodrayk. It seemed that he missed more often, had lower endurance, didn't hit as hard, and got hit harder.

I'm almost midway through the game now on a shock trooper and am still using cryoas. I guess I'll try to do a side-by-side comparison when I get drayk to 3.

If you get a Cryoa as early as possible then they will be about the same level as a Cryodrayk when you get your third canister of create Drayk so they will have about the same stats. The Cryodrayk will have more hit points, hit a bit more often and hit harder but they cost 79 more essence. If you invest 4 more endurance into the Cryoa, it'll have about the same hit points as a Cryodrayk. If you invest 6 more strength into the Cryoa, it'll be more accurate and do as much damage as the Cryodrayk. The Cryoa will still cost 28 essence less than a Cryodrayk. Plus two unevolved Cryoas with the same level as a Cryodrayk will still be better than a Cryodrayk.

Quote:

Quote:

Even Shock Troopers and Lifecrafters rarely have the essence to field more than 4 level 4 creations.

I also never said that Eyebeasts aren't worth their cost. I said that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are not worth their cost.

The first time I went through the game with a lifecrafter I had 3 drakons, an eyebeast, and 2 cryodrayks. I still had 109 essence left to take care of my team. I rolled over all opposition with much greater ease than my servile or infiltrator. I felt like i was cheating somehow. I guess if what you're saying is true I could've gotten the same bang with 3 fyoras 2 cryoas and the beast. Man, that would save a lot of skill points into INT if it were true!

Like I've said before, a great deal depends on your playing style and class. If youre strong on shaping then you can easily max out your 7 creation slots and have a bunch more essense to spare. That's when i think high levels become valuable. I reckon the real issue in our little discussion is this: Is a trained low level creation as good as a high level one?[/QB]

Again, the example you gave is flawed. I never said that all leveled/evolved low level creations are better than high level ones. You obviously didn't have 1000+ essence at the start of the game. Even if you are strong in shaping you cannot max out your 7 slots with the most powerful creations available to you through the entire game. You don’t start at Northforge with 25 intelligence and access to all the creations in the game. There may come a time when you have 7 Wingbolts and plenty of essence left to trade in for a couple of Gazers but by that point in the game, you can already demolish everything with your 7 Wingbolts. The issue isn’t which creations are the most powerful; obviously the 4th tier creations are the most powerful. The issue is which creations are the most cost effective, which means the creations that are useful for the longest time. Even a fully leveled/evolved Fyora is not going do very well against Mose but a leveled/evolved Drayk can still be useful against the Unbound.

[prankmaster]

well i prefer wingbolt very good creation

[Acidic Helixbolt]

We definitely have to petition for more various bolts in the future, yes. I'd like a company.

 

Actually, I currently have 3 wingbolts with somewhat upped ST, and even those they cant, well, bolt - they bite to death fast enough.

 

Some arrogant dragons from Quessa went down in four and six rounds, respectively for doorkeeper and some nonsence politician wannabe inside.

[Stillness]

Quote:

I did do that with my Drayk + Wingbolt vs. Gazer example. A Drayk and a Wingbolt cost 8 more essence than a Gazer but they can do much more damage and they have two element types and physical melee attacks so they can deal with resistances better than a Gazer.

That's not comparing an army of lower tier creations with an army of higher tier ones. That's two v. one. Besides I already agreed with you on this IF you're running a small to medium sized team. Let's say I have one creation slot left and the essence for a gazer. Drayk + Wingbolt won't work. This comes down to a matter of playing style and PC class.

Quote:

If you get a Cryoa as early as possible then they will be about the same level as a Cryodrayk when you get your third canister of create Drayk so they will have about the same stats. The Cryodrayk will have more hit points, hit a bit more often and hit harder but they cost 79 more essence. If you invest 4 more endurance into the Cryoa, it'll have about the same hit points as a Cryodrayk. If you invest 6 more strength into the Cryoa, it'll be more accurate and do as much damage as the Cryodrayk. The Cryoa will still cost 28 essence less than a Cryodrayk.

Now we're getting somewhere! I'm going to see if this works out for me. Maybe the problem is that I never shape my cryoas fast enough.

Quote:

The issue isn’t which creations are the most powerful; obviously the 4th tier creations are the most powerful.

Actually it is the issue in my eyes. I'm starting to think that our disagreement is more on style than creation value. The lifecrafter that I had the first time through had 27 INT. That meant he was relatively weak. You may not like a PC that weak which means that you'll have less essence for your army. That's not wrong or right. It's just preference.

I'll say this though: I've played all 4 games and enjoyed them. When I started this one I decided to try something new and basically ignore my PC's magic and combat stats for the sake of essence for monsters. I'm not saying it's the only way to go, cause that'd just be boring. I am saying that there's nothing like a strong team to completely and quickly crush foes. Where I really saw the difference was in the fens and the battle with the shapeshifting golem that has the four guardians around him (can't remember name atm). My servile and infiltrator struggled with these while the lifecrafter slid though with ease. I couldn't understand why you had the option of enlisting rebel soldiers until I played with the servile (I still didn't use them but I was tempted).

Quote:

Plus, there's the whole suspension of disbelief factor. You would think the Shapers would comment after seeing Dikiyoba's character walking around with a banned creation in tow and the drayks would be upset with a dumb, obedient drayk named "Squib".

So I'm not the only one! As the drakons are belittling me, I'm thinking, "I have a pet that looks just like you."

[Vicheron]

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:

Quote:

I did do that with my Drayk + Wingbolt vs. Gazer example. A Drayk and a Wingbolt cost 8 more essence than a Gazer but they can do much more damage and they have two element types and physical melee attacks so they can deal with resistances better than a Gazer.

That's not comparing an army of lower tier creations with an army of higher tier ones. That's two v. one. Besides I already agreed with you on this IF you're running a small to medium sized team. Let's say I have one creation slot left and the essence for a gazer. Drayk + Wingbolt won't work. This comes down to a matter of playing style and PC class.

You're still missing the point. We're not talking about endgame here. We're taking the entirety of the game into consideration. Even if you put all your points into intelligence, you are not going to be able to get 7 of the highest tier creations available as soon as you get them. Like I said before, you don't begin the game at level 40 with 1000+ essence. An army of 4 Drayks and 2 Wingbolts cost 604 essence. Do you have 604 essence when you first get Create Wingbolt and Create Drayk? An army of 4 Drakons and 2 Gazers cost 1170 essence. Do you have 1170 essence when you first get Create Drakon and Create Gazer?

Quote:

Quote:

The issue isn’t which creations are the most powerful; obviously the 4th tier creations are the most powerful.

Actually it is the issue in my eyes. I'm starting to think that our disagreement is more on style than creation value. The lifecrafter that I had the first time through had 27 INT. That meant he was relatively weak. You may not like a PC that weak which means that you'll have less essence for your army. That's not wrong or right. It's just preference.

I'll say this though: I've played all 4 games and enjoyed them. When I started this one I decided to try something new and basically ignore my PC's magic and combat stats for the sake of essence for monsters. I'm not saying it's the only way to go, cause that'd just be boring. I am saying that there's nothing like a strong team to completely and quickly crush foes. Where I really saw the difference was in the fens and the battle with the shapeshifting golem that has the four guardians around him (can't remember name atm). My servile and infiltrator struggled with these while the lifecrafter slid though with ease. I couldn't understand why you had the option of enlisting rebel soldiers until I played with the servile (I still didn't use them but I was tempted).

This has nothing to do with playstyle. Even if you put all your points into intelligence and crafting. You will never have enough essence fill your 7 slots with the highest tier creations as soon as you get them. Drakons, Ur-Drakons, and Gazers are not worth their essence cost because they are useful for the least amount of time. You're going to have Drayks and Wingbolts around for a lot longer than Drakons and Gazers. You're not even going to get Ur-Drakons until the final quest in the game.

[Stillness]

Quote:

You're still missing the point. We're not talking about endgame here. We're taking the entirety of the game into consideration. Even if you put all your points into intelligence, you are not going to be able to get 7 of the highest tier creations available as soon as you get them.

We both agree that I'm missing your point. You can't ever make a full team of the newest available creation at any point in the game. You build as you level from the beginning of the game until the end IF you want stronger creations. Whether that means evolving, replacing, or both depends on your class and your style. With most creations evolving becomes less cost effective than making a new creation at some point.

Quote:

Drakons, Ur-Drakons, and Gazers are not worth their essence cost because they are useful for the least amount of time.

Huh? They are useful. That's what I'm saying. If you have the essence and want a stronger creation than a drayk, make a drakon. He will hit harder, take more damage, resist effects better, and make you look more menacing. I will admit that Ur-drakons are quite expensive, but they hit very hard and slow your opponent. Again it's a matter of style and preference. I absorbed mine and went with drakons.

I honestly don't even know what we're talking about anymore. Your argument includes a time factor that completely eludes me. Should you not buy high level spells since you wont have them as long and they cost more gold?

Answer this question for me: I prefer a team of 6 or 7 (including my PC) when running a LC or ST. When I get my first canister of create drakon I have 2 drayks, 2 wingbolts, a rot, a cryoa and about 110 essence to use on my army. Which option will make my team the most potent, (1) absorbing a drayk and making a drakon or (2) training one or both of my drayks? Why do you so answer?

It seems we may be discussing different issues. I was originally responding to this:

Quote:

I don't think that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are worth their cost. Drakons and Ur-Drakons do more damage and have more health than Drayks but it's just cheaper to create more Drayks or to level and evolve Drayks.

I never really used gazers, so I can comment much on them. I also haven't done a comparison between an evolved drayk and a drakon. I'll do that when I get create drakon with my ST. It does seem that the general consensus is that a drakon is still better. It definitely makes sense intuitively.

[Questionmarks.]

I'm sorry,but i can't help but laugh when smart people that know everything about a game start arguing,they use big words,and talk about the events and the game and WHOO!it's exciting!

[Chilung]

I think this is probably the most balanced geneforge game as far as power of creations and it does encourage you to use different types of creations as the game progresses.

 

War Tralls are very useful if merely for the fact they possess the only non essence draining missile attack (and its purely physical damage which allows you to take on those pesky spikey, oozing, creatures with high resistences, and basically no one has noted this fact), most magical creations are probably more powerful in attack but run out of essence more quickly.

 

As much as I've loved the power of the high tier creations in previous games, they have been quite unbalanced, compare the top tiers of last games to the creations below them and there is a huge difference and considerably less use for them, where as in this one there are still advantages to bringing along slightly lower tier creatures to the end (taking on different resistences, backing up other creations, etc). I still like Ur-drakons even if they don't have the multi-attack anymore.

 

If I was forced to pick favourites, cryodraks (great return, and reasonably easy to get than other things), wingbolts (just devastating damage versus most creatures), Ur-drakons(individually nasty versus those things that the wing bolts can't damage, tougher and lower essence drain), eyebeasts (too much fun, and devastating versus large groups), yeah I like ranged attackers.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Chilung:
War Tralls are very useful if merely for the fact they possess the only non essence draining missile attack (and its purely physical damage which allows you to take on those pesky spikey, oozing, creatures with high resistences, and basically no one has noted this fact)

... except that drayks and drakons also have a non-energy-draining missile attack that does (oddly enough) physical damage. (I hear that it was changed to fire in the Windows version, though.)

[Randomizer]

I ran a drakon, gazer, and war trall through the Titan Hall and found that drakons did the best overall damage versus what you find down there. Drakons have twice the effective damage versus ur-drakons. If you have only one or two creations then a drakon is the best way to go.

 

Mac version had physical damage for drayk and drakon missle attacks for some reason.

[Dark Lights]

Nearer to the end of the game (When I have as much more ess) I tend to use an Ur-Drakon with it's stats Full-Full-Nearly Full-Full (If possible) OR an eyebeat with the same stats; depending on the situation.

 

I use the Eye beast when I'm likely to fight many non-fire/magic defensive creation/people/Geneforge users.

And the Ur-Drakon to kill single people (i.e. Greta, Alwan, thoses kind of people)

 

Otherwise I use as many as possible full endurance Charged Kyshaaks/Wingbolts.