"Turn al on" ...why?

[wagginpitbull]

When I click on a creation, below the stats are the following options:

 

Statistics/Evolve creation

Turn al on

Make inactive

 

I understand the "statistics/evolve creation" option, but the other two options have me baffled.

 

Turn al on - This seems to give the creation "free will." It can do whatever it wants. Has anyone found a situation in the game where this would be beneficial?

 

Make inactive - When a creation is made inactive, it does nothing while I move about --this makes sense. However, as soon as a fight starts, the creation becomes active. There have been times when I wanted to keep a creation out of battle and "deactivating" it seemed the solution ...except that it automatically becomes active again when a fight begins --granted I can keep it out of harms way & hit the space bar to skip its turn, but shouldn't inactivating a creation avoid the need for this?

 

wp

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by wagginpitbull:

 

Quote:

Make inactive - When a creation is made inactive, it does nothing while I move about --this makes sense. However, as soon as a fight starts, the creation becomes active. There have been times when I wanted to keep a creation out of battle and "deactivating" it seemed the solution ...except that it automatically becomes active again when a fight begins --granted I can keep it out of harms way & hit the space bar to skip its turn, but shouldn't inactivating a creation avoid the need for this?

I typically don't use the "Make inactive" option, but I can see uses for it--for instance, in making absolutely sure that Phariton doesn't see that I've taken his battle alpha in G2, or for keeping my creations out of the way while I try to disable mines. I would have liked to use it in G1 to keep my creations away from the damaging floors. None of those are situations where I'm likely to end up in combat (and I typically want my creations by me when in combat), so I don't have a complaint against the way it works. At least you can keep the creation from accidentally catching up to you (or worse, triggering a combat while catching up to you) while it is inactive.

 

Dikiyoba hasn't found a use for a creation controlled by AI except for the principle of allowing it to be free and doing whatever it wants. But that principle breaks down as soon as combat ends and the creation follows your every move again.

[Randomizer]

When you are short of essence it sometimes pays to use less intelligent creations. Usually you would rather control them since you can pick the targets they attack. However sometimes it doesn't matter.

 

In GF2 I used a AI controlled creation early in the game and only added intelligence later to control it after the first 8 areas.

[Aoslare]

The longer you keep a creation with you, the stronger it will end up being. In G2 and G3, the intensity of this effect outweighs having a very high shaping skill. The result is that it's usually beneficial to create the creations you want as soon as you have the essence and skill. You can pump their INT later, when you have extra essence, but spending a few levels on perm AI is a small price to pay for having your creations be at a permanently higher level, by those several levels.

 

As for make inactive: I use it whenever I have creations in tow and enter one of the damaging atmosphere zones (at least, the ones where the entrance is a safe area).

[Jaid]

activating AI makes fights go a lot faster. it also avoids problems with accidentally telling your creation to move instead of kill the thing next to it, or (even worse) telling it to skip it's turn by clicking on it.

 

personally, i have found use for it in the form of large groups of thahds in early game. all i really wanted them to do was run up next to stuff and beat it to death, and then take a beating in return... why not just let the computer handle that? =D

[Fort]

These buttons won't be used very often, especially because players usually want to be in constant control of their creations during combat. But every once in a while you might find a use for them. I don't remember ever using them myself simply because you could mimic its effects fairly easily, but that's just me.

[The Mystic]

Quote:

Originally written by wagginpitbull:

Turn al on - This seems to give the creation "free will." It can do whatever it wants. Has anyone found a situation in the game where this would be beneficial?

I don't like using the AI. Either my creations or my character (and in higher-level combat, both) will usually die horribly as a result.

Come to think of it, I try to get by with NO creations as much as possible, even when playing as a Shaper. That way, I don't have to worry about them or the AI most of the time, and my character can level up a little faster.

[Retlaw May]

But that means that when you do have a creation, it will be relativaly weak because it has no exp.

[The Mystic]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
But that means that when you do have a creation, it will be relativaly weak because it has no exp.

Not really, because I level up on various shaping skills before making any creations, and my creations usually start out fairly decent. Sometimes I wait until I've trained three times in making a creature before creating one, and just make the stronger version.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by The Mystic:
Sometimes I wait until I've trained three times in making a creature before creating one, and just make the stronger version.

Except that, compared to an experienced 'weaker version' creature, it's the so-called stronger version that usually falls short. Of course, experienced means that the creation has been around for quite a while. Generally, if you make a creation once you get the ability, by the time you get a third level in that creation, your current creature will be stronger.

However, like every good rule, there are a few exceptions. Fyora/Cryoa in GF3, for example.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, this wasn't necessarily true in GF1. Creations didn't level up in GF1 like they did in GF2 & GF3.

[Micawber]

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
Generally, if you make a creation once you get the ability, by the time you get a third level in that creation, your current creature will be stronger.

Interesting. Your rule has been my exception. When I play as a Shaper I pump shaping stats early and I can use all creation types as soon as the ability becomes available. I frequently get to the third level ability before my earlier creation has leveled more than a couple of times, and so the equation works the other way. So many different ways to play...

[The Mystic]

Quote:

Originally written by Archimandrite Micawber:
So many different ways to play...

You'd be surprised. Once I beat GF1 playing as a Shaper--a SOLO Shaper, making creations only when absolutely necessary, and destroying them again when I didn't.

Quote:

Originally written by The Mystic:
I level up on various shaping skills before making any creations, and my creations usually start out fairly decent.

Now, allow me to explain the method behind the madness. I have two basic rules.

First, I never make a creature unless my shaping skill is at least 2 above the minimum; this starts the creature at higher levels. Second, I don't like to make a creature until its level is at least 2, preferably level 3.

My only exception to these rules is if I can't complete an area without support, and I can't get my character strong enough to get through it solo.

Using these rules, when I created my first Plated Clawbug, it was level 30-something, and was stronger than my character. (It was also my first Clawbug of any type!)

[Aoslare]

Yeah, G1 was very unbalanced with regard to creation strength and how your stats impacted that. The levels creations gained from experience gave them, essentially, half as much power as the levels they gained from your shaping skill when you created them.

 

The nice thing about that is that it made this kind of "disposable creations" model worthwhile to play.

[The Mystic]

Quote:

Originally written by Slack Pumpkinhead:
The nice thing about that is that it made this kind of "disposable creations" model worthwhile to play.

Tell me about it. I prefer as much experience as possible to go to my character, and that method allows it to happen.

I use disposable creations with all the Geneforge games, though I've only fully tested that method in G1; I was out of work for a while, and haven't bought the registered versions of the others yet.

[Aoslare]

Disposable creations work less well in G2+ because levels from shaping skill only give half a point in each stat per level, just like regular levels. In G1 those bonus levels gave a full point per level. Combine that with the prohibitively high cost of raising your base shaping skill bonus too high above +10, and you will end up with creations that are SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful, by ten or thirty (!) levels depending on the creation, if you keep them around and let them gain experience.

 

Meanwhile, because all characters gain xp relative to your PC's level only, no matter how much xp drain you have from companions, you will never be more than a small handful of levels behind a permasolo PC, about 1-4 levels. (The xp penalties for advantages in Avernum work the same way. They are hugely less significant than the bonuses of the advantage/creation.)

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Slack Pumpkinhead:
(The xp penalties for advantages in Avernum work the same way. They are hugely less significant than the bonuses of the advantage/creation.)

Depends on which Avernum game. Having a 90% XP penalty in Avernum 2 is a good way to gimp yourself, since it actually reduces the amount of XP you gain by 90% rather than just requiring you to gain 90% more XP to gain each level. In BoA and A4 it works differently, making loading up on advantages worthwhile (especially in A4).

[Aoslare]

Even under that system (which I haven't used, because every time I try to play A2 I end up replaying E2 instead) I imagine that a penalty of, say, 50%, would be unlikely to put you more than a few levels behind, and could easily be worthwhile depending on how advantages work in A2. And smaller penalties are almost identical under both systems: a -10% gained penalty is roughly equivalent to a +11% needed penalty, a -25% gained to a +33%, etc.

[The Mystic]

Say what you will about experience in any game or series, but my solo Shaper from G1 has been known to eat cryodrayks for breakfast--and that's before using the Geneforge.

[Dikiyoba]

Well, it's not that hard to beat the snot out of everything if you play on a low difficulty level and/or with a good strategy.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Student of Trinity]

That's why it's so impressive that I use only really dumb strategy. Phear my mad stupidness skillz!

[Dikiyoba]

But remember that it takes all kinds in this world, Student of Trinity. Someone has to be the expendable cannon fodder for the vlish and their allies when they finally begin their conquest.

 

Dikiyoba.

[The Mystic]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Well, it's not that hard to beat the snot out of everything if you play on a low difficulty level and/or with a good strategy.

There's a low difficulty setting? Just kidding; I know it's there, but I don't use it.

Forthe record, I do have a strategy--sort of. When possible, I use diplomacy to get through an area; otherwise, I hack my way through. If I can't finish an area solo within 10 tries, I leave and come back with a stronger character. If I still can't do it, I come back with the strongest creations I can make.

[shadowss]

why does so many arguments break out over the simplest things in these forums??

[Sudanna]

-X- has a different strategy for the different classes. For a Shaper, -X- creates the creations best suited to the area, sends them out on patrol, stubbornly hacking and slashing until the objective is acheived, absorbs them, and moves on. For an Agent, -X- uses a "Lure" strategy. -X- sends a weaker creation by enemies, hastes him and sends him running back with two or three enemies in tow. For a Guardian, -X- goes on a "Raid" strategy. -X- himself goes along with a few decent creations, and attack them until he's in danger of death, sprints back to the exit, goes to heal, and repeats.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by TAKE ALL:
why does so many arguments break out over the simplest things in these forums??

This isn't an argument, it's a discussion.

[shadowss]

typically when you ae fighting a large horde of monsters + a large number you haven't fought yet the entire "round" takes much longer becasue each and every single creature has to go about its turn...

 

turning the AI on would make this go much faster, although the results can be unpredicable...

[Nioca]

Turning AI on can also be helpful when it comes to flushing out hidden enemies. Like the clawbugs that are hidden behind that particularly large tree. You can't see them, but your independent fyora can!

[The Mystic]

As I said in my first post on this topic, the AI tends to kill my player and/or creations.

 

This is because said creations tend to split up and try and take on the toughest creatures in the area alone in hand-to-hand combat, dying within three turns or less, and leaving me defenseless and nearly drained of essence.

 

With AI off, however, my creations' survival probability increases dramatically. This is because they do what I want them to do, not what the game's scripting says they should do. Also, I've found that most creations are best used to swarm stronger enemies when taking them down; lack of interference from the AI allows me to do that.